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summer_stark

[book spoilers] ARYA. discuss.

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I think they have handled Arya's plotline clumsily. It just needs more time...the pacing has been incredibly rushed. I can't help but cringe at the minutes put into Rob/Talissa scenes, imaginary Littlefinger scenes, etc. that could be used for something developing Weese, Raff, Dunsen, Polliver, or whomever to provide names for Arya to use without taking the wind out of the sails of the scene with the Hound and Arya in the inn where the meet the Tickler and Polliver down the line. We are also woefully short on bloody mummers, who end up featuring in Jaime and Brienne bits later on and are not easily replaced in the story. The northmen not taking the castle also provides logistical problems. I am starting to think Jaime will not go to Harrenhal. I think the changes they are making are like a lie...they will need to keep making more to get out of it.

That said, I got goosebumps when Arya started telling Tywin about Visenya and Dark Sister. That was a really nice moment that near redeemed it for me. Tywin's view of Harrenhall was quite good (and overdue) too.

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I think they have handled Arya's plotline clumsily. It just needs more time...the pacing has been incredibly rushed. I can't help but cringe at the minutes put into Rob/Talissa scenes, imaginary Littlefinger scenes, etc. that could be used for something developing Weese, Raff, Dunsen, Polliver, or whomever to provide names for Arya to use without taking the wind out of the sails of the scene with the Hound and Arya in the inn where the meet the Tickler and Polliver down the line. We are also woefully short on bloody mummers, who end up featuring in Jaime and Brienne bits later on and are not easily replaced in the story. The northmen not taking the castle also provides logistical problems. I am starting to think Jaime will not go to Harrenhal. I think the changes they are making are like a lie...they will need to keep making more to get out of it.

That said, I got goosebumps when Arya started telling Tywin about Visenya and Dark Sister. That was a really nice moment that near redeemed it for me. Tywin's view of Harrenhall was quite good (and overdue) too.

I think that HBO could have done ACOK justice with a 12 or 13 episode season and getting rid of the changes in the characters. They could have fleshed out Arya's story more appropriately and stayed true to the story.

Of course it aint my money so you have that as well.

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1) she pulls her clever trick on jaqen,

here, the clever trick fell flat in the show -- which really bothered me. they tried to pick up where the book left off w/r/t naming tywin -- only thinking about it as he was leaving, and not finding jaqen in time. however, in the show, this makes a lot less sense than it did in the books. she obv considered killing tywin already -- as we saw from the whole knife/neck sequence -- so she didn't think about it at the last minute as she did in the books.

plus, having constant interaction with him and knowing his plots against robb, it seems silly that she wouldn't name him (and the whole argument that she was safe under tywin makes little sense since a) she did name him, just too late; and b ) she thought about killing him herself, so obv this wasnt a major concern for her). add that to the facts that she is younger and has more pressing concerns in the book (e.g., daily ass kicking from weese), she never interacts with tywin, and is not privy to his plots. yet she still tries to name him -- albeit too late -- but still, the show never gives a concise reason why she waited so long.

so, this plot failure makes her seem much less clever on the show than in the books. say what you will about the fact that she waited in the books, but i'm not buying it -- esp since she clearly thought about killing tywin -- and she clearly wanted to kill tywin as evidenced by the late naming of him. therefore, failure to name him sooner is a mark against her in the show.

But that my take on what George wrote in the book. The way I saw it was Arya just did not have the maturtiy of judgement yet to make the right choices.

George has her introspective most of time going back and forth on her strengths and her weaknesses. She repeats Syrio Forel's teachings which play to her strengths one moment and then despairs at lack of power the next.

She was after all not even a teenager in the book, well in George's universe there are no teenagers. Seems to me George makes her out to be a more complex character than than others around here do.

She's learning to be more mature on the show just as she does in the books.

Someone will have to ask George if the show captured Arya's character close enough... cause all we have are our individual impressions.

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Eh. I think plenty of ppl find her complex. Seems like the gripes here are that she's not complex enough (she's neither a mouse nor an independent person). She's just helpless a clever. Pretty one note.

That said, I think non book readers see her on the show much the way we see her in the books--cold blooded badass (like mulled wino said) who is struggling to be in charge of her life. So *shrug* I'm more ok with it now than I was. My non book reading friends and family like her but don't really think she's a badass. But most others seem to, so I'm guessing that we are just seeing her on a slower path than in the books. Or at least that what I'm hoping!

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But I think that impression most non book readers have of Arya are from the first season. That season did incorporate a few of her characteristics: she hated needlework, she was better than Bran with the arrow, she wasn't afraid of Joffrey and her attitude to the Lannisters mirrored most of the veiwers'. Arya's BAMFness was established early and only maintained this season but not, I suspect, amplified.

For me, seeing Arya physically suffering with hunger, hard manual work and the like compares quite nicely with Sansa who, while in comparatively more comfortable surroundings, suffers similar albeit phychological horrors and faces them with the same stoic attitude. I thought that contrast would translate well to a visual medium but it has not happened yet. Seeing Arya working the kitchens would've done that.

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But I think that impression most non book readers have of Arya are from the first season. That season did incorporate a few of her characteristics: she hated needlework, she was better than Bran with the arrow, she wasn't afraid of Joffrey and her attitude to the Lannisters mirrored most of the veiwers'. Arya's BAMFness was established early and only maintained this season but not, I suspect, amplified. For me, seeing Arya physically suffering with hunger, hard manual work and the like compares quite nicely with Sansa who, while in comparatively more comfortable surroundings, suffers similar albeit phychological horrors and faces them with the same stoic attitude. I thought that contrast would translate well to a visual medium but it has not happened yet. Seeing Arya working the kitchens would've done that.

That is not an Arya characteristic, just the opposite. Arya has no idea how to shoot an arrow. In the books she was greatly frustrated that she was unable to get the same training as Bran, who, rather then be a screw up at archery, was pounding Tommen in the ground in swordpractice. That scene undermined Bran and Arya both IMO.

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She is a badass in the show, but she is so much more of a badass in the books.

The way they can remedy this is that in the next episode, as they leave the castle they come upon a lone man on patrol, and Arya kills him the way she does in the books.

It's odd about people's take on Arya.

I guess I don't know what people mean when they say 'badass' , in the book and the show she seems confident , expedient and and a survivor type ... in the book she's even more complex than that.

She seems to adapt to really a really awful mileu without really being a mean person, which she is really not.

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It's odd about people's take on Arya. I guess I don't know what people mean when they say 'badass' , in the book and the show she seems confident , expedient and and a survivor type ... in the book she's even more complex than that. She seems to adapt to really a really awful mileu without really being a mean person, which she is really not.

She's not just a survivor, she's a stone cold killer with no fear. Witness her eating the wormed apple without even noticing, her killing of Dareon (that wasn't about survival), her figuring out how to kill the merchant

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don't get me wrong, i'm with you guys -- i think she is way more badass in the books than in the show. it's just after reading tv w/o pity, i thought that people were getting some of the same impressions of her that we did in book 2 -- clever and smart to go toe to toe with tywin (but still a kid since she does mess up a bit); cold blooded is coming out more now with the "shrug" and the fact that she didn't care about all the guards that needed to be killed.

personally, it bums me out that she isn't as awesome in the show as she is in the books, but for some reason, some of my enjoyment of the show is tied to my non-book reading friends and family, so when they see her as cold blooded, clever, intelligent, this makes me happy. it also makes me think maybe i'm just overly biased b/c she is my favorite character and maise williams is so talented at bringing her to life that i want to see her develop like she dos in the books.

then again, she really does need to start killing people...it's really high time. . . i just hope it isn't too jarring when it happens b/c they have left out some of her development --- but if people think she is cold blooded already, then maybe it won't be too much of a shock.

Bee Diddie: weasel soup is the name for the stunt she pulls where she gets jaqen, rorge, and biter to free the northmen who amory lorch brought in, because she thinks the northmen can take the castle. so jaqen makes her go to the kitchens and ask for huge kettles (or maybe just one huge kettle) of soup, and then the 4 of them go to the dungeons and tell the guards that it's food for them (or for the prisoners) but instead they throw the scalding hot water on the guards, kill them, and free the northmen who are numerous enough to then overtake the skeleton crew tywin left behind.

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she's awesome in the show and everyone I know that watches but doesn't read loves her to death. every single one. it's a shame she's not as complex and cool as in the books, but at least she's still loved for pretty much the same reasons.

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does it occur to all you arya fans that she is probably quite psychotic? certainly anti-social? Doesnt she hurt small animals? She is the Jason Voorhees of Westeros!

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does it occur to all you arya fans that she is probably quite psychotic? certainly anti-social? Doesnt she hurt small animals? She is the Jason Voorhees of Westeros!

:huh: arya doesn't hurt animals. she was devastated to have to make nymeria run off, but she did it to save her. and she caught cats in KL, for practice and let them go. and she killed pigeons for food -- which, if you're a carnivore, shouldn't trouble you. i'm vegan and i don't begrudge a poor starving girl any food she can find (frankly, i don't begrudge anyone anything they want to eat, eating animals just isn't my bag).

i don't think she's psychotic or anti social. maybe a bit of a sociopath, but not pyschotic (which implies super emotional batshit crazy type shit -- i think aside from killing the tickler, which i don't blame her for, she is pretty unemotional about killing). also, as evidenced by her lamenting the loss of her little gendry/hot pie family, and her real family, she's not anti social, just lonely w/o many trustworthy people around her these days.

wait, aren't you an arya fan too? were you just kidding? if so, replace my post with ;)

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perhaps i used the wrong phrase but it somewhat disturbs me her inability to feel anything over killing several strangers, esp. the guard and the insurance guy in braavos

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You really dont remember when arya "rescues" the northmen from the dungeon in harranhal and they take the castle for roose?

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Nope. I didn't really get into Arya until she ate the worm from TKM's skull. During the course of these books I found myself growing weary of Dany's POV (was one of my favorites along with Jon and Tyrion) and growing increasingly fond of Stannis, Davos and Arya.

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That is not an Arya characteristic, just the opposite. Arya has no idea how to shoot an arrow. In the books she was greatly frustrated that she was unable to get the same training as Bran, who, rather then be a screw up at archery, was pounding Tommen in the ground in swordpractice. That scene undermined Bran and Arya both IMO.

I'm hoping for this too.

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Nope. I didn't really get into Arya until she ate the worm from TKM's skull. During the course of these books I found myself growing weary of Dany's POV (was one of my favorites along with Jon and Tyrion) and growing increasingly fond of Stannis, Davos and Arya.

It was a pretty tense/dramatic situation. One of my 2 favorite scenes in CoK (along with the qh/jon snow chase and capture).

If you di reread, you should read arya chapters as close as any tyrion chapter.

Im so fed up with Dany its killing me to read her on my DwD reread. I detest her right now

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perhaps i used the wrong phrase but it somewhat disturbs me her inability to feel anything over killing several strangers, esp. the guard and the insurance guy in braavos

Well, the insurance guy was a contract hit.

The guard was to save her and her friends lives.

Dont seem out of place with lots of oter deaths in the books. Especially the red wedding massacre or frey pies.

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