[Book Spoilers] Nitpick without repercussion!

[Lady Cheeseheart]

Phew, what to say, what to say.

I always lurk, and after last week's hideous monstrosity this week really made up for it in staying true to the books...mostly.

Again, Jeyne/Robb. I'm sitting here going "wtf?" whenever they're talking. We know GRRM is finicky for keeping customs, manners and the like in keeping with the time period in which they are set. How the hell is this random Volantene woman getting in to Robb's tent all time? His guards must suck at their jobs to let an unknown woman saunter into the tent. I'd be a LOT more understanding of it all if a guard popped his head in and said "Your Grace, the Lady Talisa begs a word" or SOMETHING. Roose should at least question her presence. That bothers me. Then, as said before, WHY WHY WHY do they let it get so bad? Viewers will say "oh what an idiot" but it's just....so not his character. I try to look at it all as a new story, so I'm not too pissed off at the stupidity of some of it, but I just think it ruins that whole dynamic of choosing to protect her honour. I could have forgiven the impulsive sexytime if he had recently learned of Bran/Rickon; the same goes for Catelyn. Nah, sorry producers, but you've really cocked up the chronology. There's just so much that is forgiveable and understandable assuming character knowledge of Bran and Rickon's deaths.

Not so fussed about Weasel soup. I think they've done REALLY well in adapting that storyline to fit budget constraints, and to make it easier for the unsullied (wahey!) viewers to understand. It works, she wastes 2 names and regrets it but it's too late in the end. Now I just need to see that damned coin make an appearance.

Jon Snow storyline is...sub par. I don't like the changes they've made to it, but I can see that it will get to the same place in the end. I'm not happy with it, but I know that it'll make sense as an adaptation. We just lack character building. I still resent that they made Jon ask to go, instead of Qhorin requesting him.

UGH, Luwin and Osha with your stage whispers. Maybe it's because I'm such a fan of the books, but....it just feels so ham-fisted and heavy handed all the time. Viewers aren't stupid, they know the boys aren't dead anyway.

All in all, though, this episode was much better than the last few. Dany still needs to STFU and put on her interesting character. Fire and blood, mother of dragons...I swear I could slap her. She's one of my favourite book characters but she's such a little wimpy brat in the series. Give it time, give it time.....

[DurararaFTW]

When did they say Joffrey is older then Robb?

[SerMixalot]

I agree with you. This is my biggest nitpick so far. I see absolutely no reason why they needed to change her name or who she is at all. It doesn't make sense Robb would betray his word to the Frey's for a piece of ass from Volantis, it just doesn't! I mean, it was hard enough to take in the books. Everyone did a facepalm and shook their heads saying what a foolish mistake Robb had made... but now, this sex scene of frantic ripping of clothing off to do it on the floor with a girl he barely knows from Volantis? BLAH. My second biggest nitpick was the awkward scene between Jaqen and Arya. Since they dropped Weasel Soup, it felt a lot less significant how they played out the dialogue. I'm actually ok with production reasons for shortening Arya's complicated story at Harrenhal, but at least make the scene between she and Jaqen work like it did in the book and also she should have at least gotten one killing of a guard in there somewhere. My last nitpick is a doozy though... why the HELL are they leaving out Tyrion's chain??? It's such a huge huge part of the plot and having him standing around bickering with Bronn about cleaning his nails while he pores over old books was humorous but made him seem somewhat clueless and like a bumbling idiot to be honest. Tyrion's much much more clever than that, we all love him for it, and I don't like how they're playing that scene out, boring boring. They spent more time on his lines with Cersei and with Ros (which albeit were good) than they did or could have making a solid plot road towards the making of the chain that takes so long you wonder if it will ever get done in the books! Tell me they're not going to put it in and instead made the ships just all magically burst into flame from wildfire and somehow not escape out of blackwater? LAME.

the chain is even more important than that. the chain saved kings landing, thus tyrion saves kings landing. they have removed a huge part of tyrion's character going into next season, the unrecognized hero of the battle tossed aside, partially fueling his drunken stupor at the PW

[The hairy bear]

The show has a completely messed up perception of time being needed (Tywin specifically says Stannis is only days away from Kings Landing

TV Westeros is much smaller than books Westeros, of that we can be sure. That's good to a certain extent, since it justifies the smaller armies.

But having Tywin to depart from Harrenhal in westward direction, being intercepted by Tyrell ambassadors and strike a deal with them, and then ride to King's Landing in time... it's just too much. That would mean that one could travel from Dorne to the Wall in less than a week or so.

When did they say Joffrey is older then Robb?

They didn't say it. They only said that Joffrey is seventeen, and they are assuming that since Robb is sixteen in the books.

But we know that all characters are being aged up. Specifically, the war is said to have taken place 17 years before the start of the series. Since Robb was conceived at the beginning of the war, that would make tv Robb 18-19 by now.

[Jolene Brown]

This episode established that Joffrey is 17, right? So maybe that person is thinking that means he's older than Robb, who is 16 in the books. But obviously he's not 16 in the show, so it doesn't really matter. Clearly, Robb is older than Joffrey, especially since when he was conceived, Robert and Cercei weren't even married yet.

[SerMixalot]

This episode established that Joffrey is 17, right? So maybe that person is thinking that means he's older than Robb, who is 16 in the books. But obviously he's not 16 in the show, so it doesn't really matter. Clearly, Robb is older than Joffrey, especially since when he was conceived, Robert and Cercei weren't even married yet.

the problem being is that earlier in the show (IIRC), it has been established that robb was conceived on his wedding night with cat (he sleeps with her and goes off to roberts rebellion-returns with jon snow) and of course robert doesnt marry cersei until after he wins throne, making robb what 20 or 21?

[SerMixalot]

TV Westeros is much smaller than books Westeros, of that we can be sure. That's good to a certain extent, since it justifies the smaller armies. But having Tywin to depart from Harrenhal in westward direction, being intercepted by Tyrell ambassadors and strike a deal with them, and then ride to King's Landing in time... it's just too much. That would mean that one could travel from Dorne to the Wall in less than a week or so. They didn't say it. They only said that Joffrey is seventeen, and they are assuming that since Robb is sixteen in the books. But we know that all characters are being aged up. Specifically, the war is said to have taken place 17 years before the start of the series. Since Robb was conceived at the beginning of the war, that would make tv Robb 18-19 by now.

if robb is 18 or 19, well he would be 20 or 21, makes his choices with Talisa much less acceptable as he should be a little bit wiser

[Evamitchelle]

Robb is around 17 at the beginning of the show, so he should be 18 now.

[Arkash]

joffrey is now older than robb???

Show-Robb is nearly 20.

[ipsuel]

the chain is even more important than that. the chain saved kings landing, thus tyrion saves kings landing. they have removed a huge part of tyrion's character going into next season, the unrecognized hero of the battle tossed aside, partially fueling his drunken stupor at the PW

Amen... it's the epitome of what's happened to Tyrion his whole life... it is such an important part of character motivation that to remove it was just stupid on all fronts.

One of GRRM's strengths is that his characters are human/we understand their motivation even when we don't agree... the chain missing is big error imo.

[SerMixalot]

and I dont believe that it would have taken much effort, put a line or two earlier in the season,

having tyrion reading old books on the eve of battle while the capt of the guard is cleaning his fingernails smacks of incompetence

[Jamie Lannister]

Robb/Talisa really doesn't speak to me. I could kind of understand if he, say, found himself in a moment of weakness after learning about Bran and Rickon, and takes solace in the arms of this girl he (apparently) has some preexisting chemistry with... but eh. I was really tuning out during her backstory monologue, and we all saw that coming a mile off. It takes the gut punch out.

[ipsuel]

and I dont believe that it would have taken much effort, put a line or two earlier in the season, having tyrion reading old books on the eve of battle while the capt of the guard is cleaning his fingernails smacks of incompetence

^^This.

Love Bronn and Tyrion... but here again, one of the vital, defining characteristic of a character (Tyrion's brains) was destroyed. They could have *easily* shortened a few bs scenes throughout the season to add in a few lines here and there.

Having him sit with a pile of books does not in any way indicate he's bright. And if Tyrion is one thing at this point--it's bright.

[The Meeraculous Third Reed]

I do hate to be a book purist, I honestly do, but this week had me seething with the deviations. Not because they were deviations, but because they simply did not make sense.

Taking away Bran and Rickon as the motivation behind Robb and Catelyn's actions makes them both far far weaker than they should be. It was farcical writing.

Why was Osha out in the open? Why would Luwin risk Bran and Rickon being caught? Someone highlighted Tyrion's brains being called into question, a point well made.

Why did Jon and Qhorin discuss their plans openly while walking along with the Wildlings? Why would any two people ever be that stupid?

[SerMixalot]

on the age thing, I believe it was also established that theon is a few years older than robb, but has spent 9 or 10 years with the starks, putting theon at 18 to 20

[Arrogant Bastard]

I do hate to be a book purist, I honestly do, but this week had me seething with the deviations. Not because they were deviations, but because they simply did not make sense.

Taking away Bran and Rickon as the motivation behind Robb and Catelyn's actions makes them both far far weaker than they should be. It was farcical writing.

Why was Osha out in the open? Why would Luwin risk Bran and Rickon being caught? Someone highlighted Tyrion's brains being called into question, a point well made.

Why did Jon and Qhorin discuss their plans openly while walking along with the Wildlings? Why would any two people ever be that stupid?

I had the same questions. I fear the answer is just ham-fisted writing. Feels like the writers thought the reveal that Bran and Rickon were alive would be a big surprise, though I doubt many new viewers actually thought they were dead. I think this could have waited until episode 10, and it didn't have to be so heavy handed. THeon not only mentions it's the farm boys, but Osha for some unknown reason pops out of hte crypts in broad daylight, and Maester Luwin has to visit them under.

Jon and Qhorin made little sense either. The wildings don't speak a foreign language; they should be able to hear Jon and Qhorin talking if they're halfway competent. And if Qhorin is such a great ranger, how did he lose Jon so easily for so long? He really doesn't come across well on the show, and I don't think anyone will care or be surprised when Jon has to kill him.

I read Sepinwall's review, and I agree that it really feels like this show is juggling too many plotlines. Jon's been wandering around in the North with Ygritte for like three episodes already, adn basically nothing has happened other than him getting captured. Stannis has been totally absent for a couple episodes, and the writers just thrown in little asides like "his fleet is three days from King's Landing" just to remind people that he still exists.

This season needed more than ten episodes; it's been totally rushed. It doesn't help that they're also moving up storylines from ASOS as well as adding their own lengthy new scenes.

[Conchobar]

This thread has way too much negativity. I will slowly back out...with one final statement...

I LIKE ALL THE CHANGES AND THEY ARE NECESSARY FOR A TV ADAPTATION. *runs out of room*

:D

There is too much negativity in this thread though, although I am starting to agree with many points being made.

[ipsuel]

:D

There is too much negativity in this thread though, although I am starting to agree with many points being made.

Giving an honest opinion isn't negativity... it's just an honest opinion. For those who like the changes--that's great. I've no issue with that (my son, for instance likes quite a few of the changes)... there are quite a few I like (and have stated so) but for this episode... I don't.

I think some of the changes are poorly conceptualized, poorly written and unnecessary at best.

But as I stated in another thread, I will still support the show cuz it's a good show by TV standards.

[SerMixalot]

wrt to the negativity, please let me say, I am still enjoying the series. it is fine tv and entertaining.

I am expressing my initial reactions to what I see.

I actually have to watch each episode twice, 1st as a purist and then as entertainment. I am expressing initially my reactions to what I see, which tends to concentrate on the faults. as time goes on I begin to appreciate the good things

For example, I think HBO and done an excellent job on the Theon and B&J storyline with all the budget and related constraints available.

[ipsuel]

wrt to the negativity, please let me say, I am still enjoying the series. it is fine tv and entertaining. I am expressing my initial reactions to what I see. I actually have to watch each episode twice, 1st as a purist and then as entertainment. I am expressing initially my reactions to what I see, which tends to concentrate on the faults. as time goes on I begin to appreciate the good things For example, I think HBO and done an excellent job on the Theon and B&J storyline with all the budget and related constraints available.

This is funny cuz I do the same thing... watch it 2x. I get all my bitching done the first, then try to enjoy it the second.

I've said all along that it's still a great TV show, and I would recommend it to anyone--but that doesn't mean I can't be disappointed at times. Creating scenes for no apparent reason is disappointing to me--simple.

The example I'll give again is Talisa's drowned brother... Why did they need to create a vulnerable, emotional moment about a young boy dying when they already had that moment in the books with Bran's/Rickon's death?

I don't care if her brother died, he's not a character I've grown to love (nor is she)... but... as a viewer I would care to see Robb hurting about HIS brothers dying. Just seems silly to me,

Same with Osha/Maester L having a little chat in the crypts... ridiculous at best.