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teemo

[Book Spoilers] Nitpick without repercussion!

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I think that is in the book too, and the way the chapter ends. I don't think it's explained in the book either, I think, since the next chapter picks us with Brienne and Jamie on the road.

Jaime mentions that he was drunkenly swearing oaths in his first chapter in ASoS.

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We're told in the books that Cat made Jaime swear to various things at swordpoint before releasing him. I wish they would have included this; it could have been a short scene and it really becomes an issue later on, this whole thing where he swore not to take up arms against the Starks and Tullys and of course his promise to return Catelyn's daughters. It is also one of the factors that demonstrates his evolution, since at first, he doesn't really take seriously the idea that he could be held to an oath sworn drunkenly at swordpoint, but eventually, he tries to fulfill these oaths.

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Nitpicking the nitpicking...

1. A television adaptation needs to choose the narrative threads it is going to emphasize carefully.

2. No television adaptation can emphasize every narrative thread from the literary works it adapts.

3. Moments that aren't absolutely necessary to the chosen threads are fair game for excision.

4. Arya's weasal soup moment is a favorite of book readers.

5. Adapting a literary work for television must target the widest possible audience.

6. Arya has had many, MANY moments demonstrating her strength of character over the past several episodes.

7. The weasal soup moment is nice, but unnecessary within that context. There is absolutely no narrative justification that it NEEDS to be there except for book-fans' unwillingness to accept that it is unnecessary to developing Arya as a strong character.

8. The only argument that could be made for it NEEDING to be there would be if a future plot point involving Arya turned on the weasal soup moment AND it was necessary to further development of the main narrative threads of the story as a whole.

9. There is no such plot point; there is no such necessity to the overall narrative.

Conclusion: The narrative excision of Arya's weasal soup moment is completely understandable given the time and contextual constraints of adapting hundreds of pages of novel to ten hours of television storytelling. Not only is it understandable, it is completely justified given the incredibly difficult task the show-makers have to make the show accessible to a broad audience that also, by default, includes thousands of viewers who wouldn't know the weasal-soup moment if it walked up and whacked them over the head with a two-by-four.

Secondary Conclusion: nitpicking an adapted television show often involves an inability or unwillingess to understand, admit, or appreciate the creative constraints television writers are under.

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for me the issue is from a television standpoint, the created a cliffhanger-all good, appropriate for the scene, series and adaptation. Cat asks for the sword. Next thing we know Jamie has escaped and cat allowed it. How was the sword part of that? It should have been explained. The cliffhanger was left hanging. That is poor tv writing in my book. Very easily resolved with either Cat or B/J discussing the oaths taken at sword point. Perhaps they will get to it later in the next couple of episodes.

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I did not like Catelyn just sitting there when Robb and Karstark showed up demanding answers. Her whole reason for releasing Jaime was so Karstark and his men wouldn't kill him, yet Karstark is standing right there and calling her a traitor and she does nothing? WTF.

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The best moment in the whole book was the Weasel soup scene! I've been looking forward to that scene from the beginning and they decide not to show it. I mean, not even anywhere close. It's not like they can't do it because it's a "TV adaption" that scene would fit perfectly, even if they ruined most of Arya's storyline so far.

Episode 10 is named Valar Morghulis, at least we get the coin. But the weasel soup scene just... had to be in.

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Three pages of nitpicking and no one points out the following... Lord Karstark prayed to one of The Seven!!! He clearly says something about The Father when he should be talking about an old tree. .

Oh, I was fuming at that one. haha

But, seriously, I noticed a lot of religious themes in this episode and it is a disservice to viewers to be so inconsistent. The North has a unique culture from the south, and little lines like this (for no reason?) obfuscate the size of the continent and complexities of differing regional cultures.

Who wrote this episode? D & D? Do they not know the importance of the difference in Southron and Northern culture and religion?

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[mod] Keep it civil. Further, suggesting that anyone involved with the show deserves a beatdown or death will earn you a long timeout from posting on this site. Thank you. [/mod]

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i am fearing that they will create some ham fisted way for JH to hook back up with Arya to accomplish the giving of the coin.

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Okay, guys, if this thread offends you, it's very simple....don't read it! I think the name of the thread explains it all. It doesn't even mean we all hate the show (one of the first things I wrote is that I actually really liked this episode). I didn't even know what I was going to write in this thread up until the Robb/Talisa thread. While a lot of us love this show, I still think it's totally fair to nitpick things that we don't like. Plus, this thread is a great way for people to vent their frustrations in a repercussion-free zone, and can help cause less arguing over in the main discussion thread.

If you don't want to hear people complain about the show, then you should all means stay away from this thread. There are plenty of other threads in this forum where you will see a lot less complaining...but this thread was made for it! :)

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1- arnolf karstark said he would give his heart to the father to get his kids back. he's a northerner so i found it odd he would reference one of the 7.

2- davos said POTATOES!!!!

3- gendry called arya arry... i know thats what he met her under but he knows her real name now.

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Complaints, not genuine nitpicks:

1) Who the f is Talisa and why does she talk so much? Is she going to be revealed as Jeyne Westerling or is she just a deadly dull nurse soaking up endless screen time boning Robb?

2) Weasel Soup should be the name of our band and therefore, I wanted it.

3) "Pigshit"? Tyrion's chainy brilliance becomes somehow using mud to defeat Stannis? Not really looking forward to "Blackwater" as much as others are.

Nitpicks:

1) A blacksmith friend points out that the anvil at Harrenhall was manufactured in the 1920s.

2) And I strongly suspect that's not genuine Valyrian steel.

On the upside:

A man can be hot. A girl can want to run her fingers through his weird hair.

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Now that I've watched this episode twice and had time to digest, here are my two cents:

Not really happy with how they are portraying the Imp preparing for defending King's Landing. So it's the day before the siege and it's just him and Bronn trying to figure out how to defend the capitol of Westeros by reading through old books. THE DAY BEFORE. If I was a non-book reader, I would think that he is a clueless fool. Wouldn't there be dozens of different people in on these "city defense" meetings? Wouldn't every large city/castle have people that this is their only job? To know how to defend their city? To know what steps are to be put in place and when? But it's just two men trying to figure it all out on their own. TWO MEN... THE DAY BEFORE!

Also not really happy with the final outcome of Arya/Harrenhall. I knew weeks ago that there would no be any weasel soup, which I was fine with, but NO coin yet and NO slitting the guard's throat? How much harder would it have been to have Jaqen give her the coin at their last meeting and have her kill one guard on the way out? Now she is going to have to meet-up with him on the road somewhere for him to give her the coin. I don't think that it will have the same impact. Also, not thrilled with her ending with Tywin. I wasn't expecting him to give her a hug and tell her to keep in touch, but all those weeks of tense verbal sparring between the two was for nothing. Regardless of whether or not he knew who she was, it didn't even matter. When she ran out into the courtyard and saw him leaving, I thought maybe he would have given her a wink or a little nod, but nothing.

Thought that they should have kept Bran hidden in the cryptys until they emerge in episode 10, but oh well. Thought that would have been a more impressive reveal, rather than ML seeing Osha sneaking around.

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They completely fucked up Robb's storyline. Like it's absolutely unforgivable at this point.

They're making it look like Robb and Catelyn were screwed from the beginning because they're absolute idiots. Which couldn't be more wrong. The point is that Bran and Rickon’s “deaths” made Robb and Cat do things on impulse they wouldn’t normally do, and the tragedy of it is that Bran and Rickon didn’t actually die.

HBO's really failing in the subtlety department.

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if you watch some of the "inside the episode" videos on HBO.com, D&D believe Jon suffered from a lack of a male adult role model and thus sought a fatherly relationship with Lord Mormont. 1st Jon did not suffer from a fatherly role, Ned loved him. It was a motherly relationship he didnt have, though I will grant there was something of a fatherly role played by Mormont, but it was more in the terms of a mentor/mentee relationship. Nothing in the books showed the conflict with Craster, Mormont etal. Jon was a quiet serious young man in the book, the show a loud mouth needing some place putting. Again I believe a basic misunderstanding of the character by the producers.

THIS!

I have been watching the show in the happy expectation of changes to serve visual story-telling that would keep things fresh and interesting for both book readers and the unsullied. I was NOT expecting a rewrite of the characters that goes against the spirit of the book. IMHO this is not tomayto -tomahto but a real difference in many, many cases.

Qhorin- why is this famous and awesomely skilled ranger suddenly a bumbling fool that can't track John and gets himself captured and the other NW men killed by his ineptitude? Why is their death not a result of self-sacrifice but a result of stupidity? How does it serve the medium of television?

Robb- in the books he does what he does for honour, making his end a tragedy. Now he "deserves" a comeuppance.

Catelyn- so the show changes her motivation from unhinged grief to fear of losing her one chance to use Jaimie to an unbridled act of revenge-OK> well why does she not say so to Robb, Karstark and the audience? Watching that scene made me think she had no reason whatsoever for her actions.

Cersei- last week she acknowledges Joffrey is out of control, irredeemable and a punishment for her sins. This week she is unhinged by the possibility he might die in battle. Last week's Cersei would have welcomed that outcome.

Tyrion- book Tyrion orders the chain made immediately. Show Tyrion is still reading books for an answer on the eve of battle. And sellsword Bronn can read while last week Tywin's bannerman can't read.How does stupid Tyrion serve a TV adapatation better than smart Tyrion?

Tyrion declares his WUV to Shae who WUVS him right back. Will this make their ultimate end more poignant or more unbelievable?

Stannis- intends to make Davos his Hand without our seeing how Davos is willing to give advice Stannis doesn't like but is willing to follow because it is good advice. Undercuts Stannis' good qualities and Davos'es decent wisdom.

Arya- without all the traumatic hardships she endures in the books, how can one understand her willingness to train at the house of black and white without seeing her as a psycopath?

John- how does making him a bumbling tongue-tied fool serve the story?

Dany- I won't even go there- no nuance at all, just a one-note portrayal of an unpleasant character.

I'm going to watch the Battle of the Blackwater, and then I'm done with the show

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They completely fucked up Robb's storyline. Like it's absolutely unforgivable at this point. They're making it look like Robb and Catelyn were screwed from the beginning because they're absolute idiots. Which couldn't be more wrong. The point is that Bran and Rickon’s “deaths” made Robb and Cat do things on impulse they wouldn’t normally do, and the tragedy of it is that Bran and Rickon didn’t actually die. HBO's really failing in the subtlety department.

I simply could not agree with this more. The irony of it was so moving. And it means that Theon shares some culpability for the Red Wedding, which was really tragic to me, because it was clear that he just got in over his head, and did not really intend the extent of the damage he did. These aren't small changes, these are changes that cut away at the very heart and soul of the strongest and most important storyline in the entire series!

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