[Book Spoilers]Ros/Alayaya

[Somnus]

@Prince of Dragonstone

I think that if Jeyne Poole actually appears in the tv show again she'll probably be a new actress and since the TV viewers would never remember her they'd have to give her some screentime prior to her wedding.

About Ros, well she has been on a downward spiral ever since she left Winterfell and she had quite a few scenes with Theon, with Theon even showing to have some kind of infatuation.

I can see imagine her being Ramsay's wife, damning the day she left Winterfell and placing her hopes on Theon as Jeyne kinda did in ADwD.

[Castel]

The main similarity to Alayaya is that she is a whore who took the beating meant for Shae. But there are some stark differences in the circumstances. 1) Alayaya is discovered because that is who Tyrion goes to "see" when he is really seeing Shae, slipping thru the secret door in her room. It makes more sense that a spy would reach that conclusion in those circumstances. You would think that spies would do enough research to know that Ros was the whore Tyrion sent to Joff. 2) Alayaya took the beating and protected Shae, as far as we know Ros doesn't even know about Shae. 3) Ros has slept with Tyrion, Alayaya never did. The scene didn't bother me. In comparison to many of the other changes, it was quite minor and made sense for Ros to fill that role. I wish they would have carried it a bit further with Tyrion sneaking thru the passages of Ros's room to get to Shae earlier in the season, but since that was Littlefinger's brothel rather than a location recommended by Varys, I understand how that would have been problematic too. I still don't know why, in the context of the TV show, Tyrion is in love with TV Shae. She generally treats him indifferently at best and disrespectfully at worst, and it is very hard for me to see why he would love her or even tolerate her. Most of the sex scenes in the show have been overly long for what they have added to the story, but Tyrion and Shae could have used another sex scene this season, and their chemistry has been non-existent.

Pretty much. Of all the changes making Shae foreign was the worst. Not only did it kill the dynamic it also muddied the issue of their relationship, and takes the sting out of some of her later actions, seriously, I can't imagine her biggest scene with that accent. I get that at the point she was introduced there were a ton of whores and submissive females and they didn't want it to go too far, but their relationship has no reason for existing at all, we can't see any reason why they've stayed together. The reason the other Shae lasted was that Tyrion couldn't let her go in King's Landing and she was pretty good at making him feel wanted. Here... she's just there. It's strange.

Really? You don't see what a difference it makes if the wealthy aristocrats are beating up on a black girl versus a white one?

Not really...

[Andrés Garcia]

The fact that Sibel Kekilli isn't a very skilled actress mattered little to me, because Dinklage was so good in their scene together. His acting alone makes their relationship very believable.

[Reposado]

Doesn't matter what it is, some people on this board will never accept ANY change whatsoever from the books. Even if it's well done like this particular scene. They couldn't have included Alayaya. It would have required too much set-up for such a minor character. Ros was the most logical stand in and I think the writers did a great job of tying her into it. STOP COMPLAINING OVER EVERYTHING. If you don't like the goddamn show then TURN THE CHANNEL.

if you don't like the forum, stop posting on it. believe it or now, many criticisms have little to do with how faithful to the book it is. this may shock you but its not that good of a show on its own merits.

what makes it easy to criticize, is that it has a ton of potential, but the writers whiff a lot. it's a good show that is very enjoyable, but if the writers used a little logic more often, it could be a great show. as long as they do dumb stuff like tossing ros into this scene without bothering to explain it.

and if a show like breaking bad once made a logic leap like GOT does on a weekly basis, it would be jumped all over by the very people who love it. we like good, we want perfection. we are free to criticize the good while still watching and enjoying

[Reposado]

Doesn't matter what it is, some people on this board will never accept ANY change whatsoever from the books. Even if it's well done like this particular scene. They couldn't have included Alayaya. It would have required too much set-up for such a minor character. Ros was the most logical stand in and I think the writers did a great job of tying her into it. STOP COMPLAINING OVER EVERYTHING. If you don't like the goddamn show then TURN THE CHANNEL.

if you don't like the forum, stop posting on it. believe it or now, many criticisms have little to do with how faithful to the book it is. this may shock you but its not that good of a show on its own merits.

what makes it easy to criticize, is that it has a ton of potential, but the writers whiff a lot. it's a good show that is very enjoyable, but if the writers used a little logic more often, it could be a great show. as long as they do dumb stuff like tossing ros into this scene without bothering to explain it.

and if a show like breaking bad once made a logic leap like GOT does on a weekly basis, it would be jumped all over by the very people who love it. we like good, we want perfection. we are free to criticize the good while still watching and enjoying

[Queen Regent]

I'm so glad they did something from the books... I was waiting for the Alayaya scene. I didn't anticipate it being Roz, and was a little scared when Cerscei said she had his girl, but I love how it played out!

At least Roz now has a "role", so all the complainers can quit complaining!

[SerMixalot]

i just watched the scene and have to say that the threat of hurting or killing roz was significantly reduced from the book. In the show, cersei threatens tyrion over the safety of joffrey in teh book it was tommen. In the movie tommen's whereabouts are unknown. In the show joffrey is at KL obviously and as far as can be he will be safe. if he is killed KL will likely fall. and they all lose their heads I get it that the threat was due to Cersei's thinking Tyrion was plotting agasint Joffrey and it works in that sense. But it was far more effective in the book causeTyrion kidnapped Tommen, for his own good that is, but Cersei was obviously worried about losing control of her son.

[Prince of Dragonstone]

if you don't like the forum, stop posting on it. believe it or now, many criticisms have little to do with how faithful to the book it is. this may shock you but its not that good of a show on its own merits. what makes it easy to criticize, is that it has a ton of potential, but the writers whiff a lot. it's a good show that is very enjoyable, but if the writers used a little logic more often, it could be a great show. as long as they do dumb stuff like tossing ros into this scene without bothering to explain it. and if a show like breaking bad once made a logic leap like GOT does on a weekly basis, it would be jumped all over by the very people who love it. we like good, we want perfection. we are free to criticize the good while still watching and enjoying

I don't mind criticisms about the show based on it's aspects as a show. But you cannot deny that many people are making criticisms based on deviations from the books,not realizing the budgetary and time constraints that naturally apply to television shows. They cannot divorce the show from the books in their minds so they're constantly comparing the two even though myself and many others on the forum have tried to educate them on the difference between literature and television...two completely different media forms with two completely different styles of storytelling.

Critiques like "Littlefinger would never act like that" or "Why didn't they show Sansa's dress get torn off her body?" or "Catelyn didn't say she wanted to go back to Winterfell in the book!" are invalid because what works on the page does not work on the screen. If the public saw a 14 year old girl get stripped nude there would be an outrage. If the public saw a young black girl get beaten by a group of white men they could consider it too much. Not showing the slow build-up to Robb and Talisa/Jeyne's romance would not give a TV audience enough to understand why Robb went against his word to the Freys and would undercut the dramatic impact of the Red Wedding.

I keep telling others to stop comparing the show and the books but it seems like a lost cause. I think the only way I'll be able to enjoy the show side of this forum is to just accept that there are people who make these comparisons. Just gloss over it when I read these threads or else I'll go mad with annoyance.

[Castel]

If the public saw a 14 year old girl get stripped nude there would be an outrage. If the public saw a young black girl get beaten by a group of white men they could consider it too much

Speak for yourself, this is both patronizing and highly offensive. Not to mention that Alayaya being cut because of time constraints make much more sense.

[Precursor]

I don't mind criticisms about the show based on it's aspects as a show. But you cannot deny that many people are making criticisms based on deviations from the books,not realizing the budgetary and time constraints that naturally apply to television shows. They cannot divorce the show from the books in their minds so they're constantly comparing the two even though myself and many others on the forum have tried to educate them on the difference between literature and television...two completely different media forms with two completely different styles of storytelling. Critiques like "Littlefinger would never act like that" or "Why didn't they show Sansa's dress get torn off her body?" or "Catelyn didn't say she wanted to go back to Winterfell in the book!" are invalid because what works on the page does not work on the screen. If the public saw a 14 year old girl get stripped nude there would be an outrage. If the public saw a young black girl get beaten by a group of white men they could consider it too much. Not showing the slow build-up to Robb and Talisa/Jeyne's romance would not give a TV audience enough to understand why Robb went against his word to the Freys and would undercut the dramatic impact of the Red Wedding. I keep telling others to stop comparing the show and the books but it seems like a lost cause. I think the only way I'll be able to enjoy the show side of this forum is to just accept that there are people who make these comparisons. Just gloss over it when I read these threads or else I'll go mad with annoyance.

And what about complaints over deviations that aren't required? The Dragon-napping, has required more screentime, and more money then if Dany had just gotten the invite (like she did at the party) and then gone. Unless they re-do the entire thing without showing the dragons once I don't see how this route is any cheaper. It certainly hasn't made it any more interesting, or helped with her character development. Of course if they never show the dragons that would just end up being bad television on its own merits.

What's wrong with criticisms that some scene or actions are out of character for someone? Unless its related to explicit changes in the character from the books like the age changes of many of them, I don't see why saying "Littlefinger wouldn't act that way" is some kind of illegitimate complaint, when its OOC both within the show, and book. Unless I'm missing some absolutely major changes to his character.

I'll agree with you that not showing the buildup would be bad, but totally changing the character? It certainly didn't save money or time, since those exact same resources would have been dedicated to explaining Jeyne's background (and if they turn out to be the same person, it wasted money).

Some complaints about deviations may ignore the reality of the medium (like showing a 14 year olds tits) but I don't see why some of their changes were made.

[Prince of Dragonstone]

And what about complaints over deviations that aren't required? The Dragon-napping, has required more screentime, and more money then if Dany had just gotten the invite (like she did at the party) and then gone. Unless they re-do the entire thing without showing the dragons once I don't see how this route is any cheaper. It certainly hasn't made it any more interesting, or helped with her character development. Of course if they never show the dragons that would just end up being bad television on its own merits. What's wrong with criticisms that some scene or actions are out of character for someone? Unless its related to explicit changes in the character from the books like the age changes of many of them, I don't see why saying "Littlefinger wouldn't act that way" is some kind of illegitimate complaint, when its OOC both within the show, and book. Unless I'm missing some absolutely major changes to his character. I'll agree with you that not showing the buildup would be bad, but totally changing the character? It certainly didn't save money or time, since those exact same resources would have been dedicated to explaining Jeyne's background (and if they turn out to be the same person, it wasted money). Some complaints about deviations may ignore the reality of the medium (like showing a 14 year olds tits) but I don't see why some of their changes were made.

Dany's storyline change needed to happen because, besides the House of the Undying, she would basically have no storyline this season. The reason why Littlefinger was given more scenes this season was because Adam Gillian is one of the better, standout actors in the series and became a fan favorite in Season One. So the producers rightfully decided to give him more to do this season. In the books it works that most of Littlefinger's actions are "off screen" but that simply doesn't fly in television. The audience needs to see him do these things or people would forget about who he is.

[Maester Nikolas]

Unfortunately most of HBO's audience is american, and the average american layperson barely knows where Canada is, let alone anything else- thus, ham-handed GoT, if that's even possible. It butchers some really beautiful pieces of story-telling, but at least ASOIAF is getting a significantly better adaption than many books, like, say, Eragon [still disappointed on that one. It could have been a really good movie :( ]

[Hyper]

fwiw, i rewatched the episode with ros from s1 ep1 and tryion did not give her any chain, I am looking for the other scenes to see if she has a chaing

The medallion is mentioned in the Theon/Ros scene.

But the clearest picture of it can be seen here in this image, where Ros heads for KL: http://i.imgur.com/iApwi.jpg

That's quite the ingenious planning ahead, I must say.

[MoonCoffee]

In the books, even sweet innocent Sansa knows all her maids are Cersei's spies. So when TV Shae tries to cow Sansa's maid into not telling the queen about Sansa's flowering, I was certain Cersei had found Tyrion's real whore.

This. I know they will keep the whore-beating scene because Tyrion's line about destroying Cersei's happiness is in one of the trailers, and when Shae threatened the other maid last week I thought that would be the trigger for Cersei to seize her, investigate her, and discover that she is Tyrion's whore. In Cersei's eyes, a lowly servant daring to stand up for Sansa would be enough grounds for punishment. Even if the Hound doesn't tell, there is no reason why the other maid wouldn't rat Shae out to Cersei.

Regarding Ros as Alayaya's substitute, one one hand I like that the lion necklace from last season become a plot point. On the other hand, now I'm thinking that Tyrion gifting her that is kind of unnatural. He could've tipped her with money or a less Lannister-y jewel.

[ChromeWeasel]

Really? You don't see what a difference it makes if the wealthy aristocrats are beating up on a black girl versus a white one?

Not everyone is consumed by irrational white guilt.

[ChromeWeasel]

I'm so glad they did something from the books... I was waiting for the Alayaya scene. I didn't anticipate it being Roz, and was a little scared when Cerscei said she had his girl, but I love how it played out! At least Roz now has a "role", so all the complainers can quit complaining!

Using Ros here was fine. Makes enough sense from Cersei's point of view and moves the story along. But Shae's character has been terrible ever since she's been on screen. In the books I can see why Tyrion fell in love with her. All the flattery and great sex and her perfect looks will eventually get to you. Eventually you believe what she repeats over and over because you want to believe it. But In the show I don't see any love between the two. She's not lying about it and Tyrion has no reason to fall for her.

[Envie]

I agree with this. The actress that plays Ros does it very well, it's a shame though that her character is wasted on sexposition. But I guess that from here she'll be used by House Lannister and given to Ramsay Bolton as Sansa Stark (She knows the people of Winterfell, she's red-haired and it would have more impact on the dynamic between Theon and "Arya" (or in this case Sansa)) and hopefully becoming useful.

While I can see how you came to these theories (red hair, connection to Theon) - I cannot possibly imagine how they would get viewers to buy in to having Ros stand in for Jayne Poole as the fake Arya -OR- as a fake Sansa, AT ALL. The actress for Ros is clearly a full grown, very curvy woman, not a young girl who has just barely gotten her first period, and certainly not a scrawny little tomboy like Arya. No one, not even those characters who have never met Sansa or Arya would be fooled by that! And especially anyone at Winterfell who knew Ros... no way. They can't possibly think that would work from a filming standpoint.

I've seen this theory before and honestly, if that's what they intend to use Ros for after this, I'm going to really start losing more esteem for the writers. I think using Ros as Alayaya was a great move and they don't really need to do anything else with her after this, she filled an important role in the plot from the books. Is it necessary for her to be someone else too?

[sagaz]

I'm starting a thread because I know this is going to get a lot of discussion. I actually started to like Ros this season, and I thought that scene played out very well. And for the purists, let me just say that I for one am relieved that we didn't have a young black girl stripped and beaten by a bunch of wealthy white aristocrats. I'm not typically politically correct by any means, and I understand compartmentalizing a fantasy series versus the real world, but there is just waaaaay too much baggage behind the original scene from the books. This is the only way it could work, and it did.

I didn't read the whole thread but I think the Ros character is going to fill every salient whore in the books. In my last reread, I kept figuring her face in that scene at the wall were Jon is in a tower with Satin, some other guy and a whore from mole town throwing arrows at the wildlings (the attack before Stannis make his entrance, the one when Ygritte dies). Also I'm almost confident that she somehow would be one of Mance's spearwives when we get there.

edit: choosing of words

[Precursor]

Dany's storyline change needed to happen because, besides the House of the Undying, she would basically have no storyline this season. The reason why Littlefinger was given more scenes this season was because Adam Gillian is one of the better, standout actors in the series and became a fan favorite in Season One. So the producers rightfully decided to give him more to do this season. In the books it works that most of Littlefinger's actions are "off screen" but that simply doesn't fly in television. The audience needs to see him do these things or people would forget about who he is.

I have no problem with Littlefinger getting more screentime. He's one of my favorite characters, his scene with Arya and Tywin I absolutely loved. Openly confronting Cersei on the other hand does not seem like something he would do though. He uses subterfuge, not naked threats. Does the man who walked up to the Queen surrounded by her guards and nearly got her to kill him seem like the same man who would so throughly, and completely manipulate the Lords of the Vale?

Why do we need a large Dany storyline? Given the cuts they've made to other stories, I don't see why she couldn't have had a comparatively minor role this season. The characters all wax and wane in importance so I don't see why she couldn't be less important this season, and more important in later seasons. The scene with Mormont in the last episode I really couldn't stand. She wants to go there and get her Dragons, they want her to go there and get her Dragons, Mormont worships her and basically does whatever she wants, so why aren't they going there? Her storyline, unless I'm forgetting something, is pretty simple in the book as well, why jazz it up and waste money, and screentime when what viewers want to see is Westeros? The storyline is still boring, and taking up way more screentime then a relatively straightforward following of her story would.

[Raksha the Demon]

Using Ros here was fine. Makes enough sense from Cersei's point of view and moves the story along. But Shae's character has been terrible ever since she's been on screen. In the books I can see why Tyrion fell in love with her. All the flattery and great sex and her perfect looks will eventually get to you. Eventually you believe what she repeats over and over because you want to believe it. But In the show I don't see any love between the two. She's not lying about it and Tyrion has no reason to fall for her.

I can't figure out why they changed the personality of Shae as well as her age. She's supposed to be a sweet-talking, pretty, opportunistic girl who satisfies Tyrion's needs and who he convinces himself he loves based largely on her devotion to him, which is totally bought. She doesn't love him, she's not particularly worldly-wise (as TV-Shae is) or someone who would befriend Sansa. It is an essential part of Tyrion's complex character that he is so drawn to Shae, and that he falls in love with her (or the illusion that she projects, since I doubt that Tyrion has ever known the real Shae); because their 'love' is connected to the love that Tyrion had for Tysha, that was so tragically and abruptly perverted and destroyed.

I think that the TV show's creators and writers want the prostitutes portrayed in the show as fundamentally good, strong-willed women, 'hookers with hearts of gold'; and GRRM wrote them with more variety (Chataya and Alayaya come close, but still seem sophisticated and aware of the currents of power). I would have found a TV portrayal of Alayaya more interesting than what's been done with Roz, unless Alayaya on TV was just used for sexposition and unnecessary extra proof of Joffrey's evilness.

Perhaps TV-Shae will turn against Tyrion because she is angered over his marriage to Sansa? I don't know; TV Shae is something of an enigma and not a comprehensible one, or one that really makes sense in Westeros (unless she's working for Varys).