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Died a Hero

[BOOK SPOILERS] Which 3 men did Jamie mean?

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Sir Loras is a badass, yes. Ser Loras beat the mountain in Ned Stark's hound tourney. If Ser Loras can beat the mountain, he has a chance at beating Jaime. Ask yourself this: How much bigger is the mountain than Loras? Then this: how much bigger is Jaime than Loras? The show has painted him as a pansy who likes men, but don't let your prejudice against homosexuals and his defeat by Brienne make you think he isn't a respected dualist and fighter. Brienne is a beast and a beauty, but being beat by her is only a shame in the extremely sexist pre-enlightenment culture that medieval westeros is set.

Ser Loras has close to no real battle experience at this point except for the men he cut down in a fit of rage after Renly's death, but compare that to the countless fights Jaime's been in. Loras beat the Mountain with a trick in a joust, not in a melee (which was what Jaime was referring to, unless you think he wanted Brienne to untie him so they could have a joust right there in the forest :D) and was defeated by Brienne. Jaime goes on to give Brienne a tough time in a real fight while in chains, tired and underfed. Loras would be a somewhat worthy opponent, but Jaime would still come out on top. He's older and tougher while Ser Loras is still partially a boy. There's a reason modern fighting competitions have weight and age classes.

I'd say he would be referring to the Cleganes and Ser Barristan from the show's point of view as the show has pretty much gone to some lengths to establish these guys as good fighters. From the book's point of view, it seems to me Bronze Yohn Royce carries quite a reputation. But he didn't say this in the book (not exactly, he was simply thinking of men who were better than him in terms of pure strength) so it's not really relevant.

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A bit of Tyrion's chapter in SoS:

"He knew the man only by reputation, to be sure... but the reputation was fearsome. When he

was no more than sixteen, Prince Oberyn had been found abed with the paramour of old Lord

Yronwood, a huge man of fierce repute and short temper. A duel ensued, though in view of the

prince’s youth and high birth, it was only to first blood. Both men took cuts, and honor was

satisfied. Yet Prince Oberyn soon recovered, while Lord Yronwood’s wounds festered and killed

him. Afterward men whispered that Oberyn had fought with a poisoned sword, and ever

thereafter friends and foes alike called him the Red Viper."

So he is well known about the Kingdom, whether its enough for Jamie to think he has a chance is another thing though

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I don't thin that the character is actually coming up with a list, he's just saying threeish. But the names that are probbaly in his head are the cleganes and perhaps barristan. Loras is good with a lance, maybe the best, but in fight, i doubt Jaime thinks that he is better than those three

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Seriously people? Loras? No.

Loras isn't even as good as his own brother. He's a great jouster, but beating The Mountain in a joust does not equate to a swordfight. The mountain would crush Loras. As would Jaime.

By my count, the only characters in the book who might stand a chance against Jaime are the Clegane brothers, Selmy, and Garlan Tyrell. Those are the four best fighters aside from Jaime.

As Garlan hasn't been introduced in the show, Jaime was refering the The Hound, The Mountain, and Ser Grandfather.

Absolutely correct. Loras is a tourney knight. The mountain was making short work of him in a real fight.

On option is beric dondarrion for the simple reason that it was known that he prettyuch couldnt be killed.

But that's not likely.

My 3 are Barristan, Blackfish and the Mountain. Jamie looked up to Blackfish and has a ton of respect for him.

No way loras or darkstar are one.

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Yeah, but Jaime knows he's afar better swordsman than the Blackfish? Where's the Blackfish ever mentioned as being proficent with the sword? Or better than good?

Both Clegane's and Barristan seem the obvious choices for the sword. If you're picking the Mountain the Sandor surely must be included? We've seen him cope with his brother (in tv canon) and well Jaime's worship of Barristan is evident in the show.

If we're talking about people not mentioned then I guess Oberyn is possible. I was under the impression was fairly good with the sword, despite the fact he used the spear against Gregor. Don't remember for sure though. (Since iirc Jaime specifically mentions the sword last night). Don't see why Loras tyrell would be in the mix. Both Clegane's would kill him.

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Yeah, but Jaime knows he's afar better swordsman than the Blackfish? Where's the Blackfish ever mentioned as being proficent with the sword? Or better than good? Both Clegane's and Barristan seem the obvious choices for the sword. If you're picking the Mountain the Sandor surely must be included? We've seen him cope with his brother (in tv canon) and well Jaime's worship of Barristan is evident in the show. If we're talking about people not mentioned then I guess Oberyn is possible. I was under the impression was fairly good with the sword, despite the fact he used the spear against Gregor. Don't remember for sure though. (Since iirc Jaime specifically mentions the sword last night). Don't see why Loras tyrell would be in the mix. Both Clegane's would kill him.

I can't tell you exactly where it was said, but I was going off the respect Jamie had for Blackfish. He said something but I can't remember.

I'm perfectly fine with the Cleganes and Barristan, but Jamie did state that The MOuntain had otherworldly strength, moreso than anyone else in the 7 kingdoms, so that's why I included him and not Sandor. Jamie prob thinks he's too fast for Sandor.

Now if Jamie ever heard of Strong Belwas, then he would have said 4.

MAybe if he thought Syrio was still alive, syrio would be the third with Barristan and MOuntain.

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I can't quite see how any one who has read the books could really put forward Loras as a potential equal for Jaime... I can only see the Cleganes and Barristan(despite his age-would still be able to whop Loras back into his crib) being able to rival him.

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Except for Fat Zollo. Who is fat.

Cheap trickery.

Still, I forgot that Zollo is still alive. Jaime needs to rectify that in TWOW.

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Where are so many people pulling "and obviously Loras" from? In the book he's a great tourney knight, but his view of his own swordsmanship is about as inflated as Sansa's view of his swordsmanship. He's brave, but if I remember correctly even he mentions he's not the best in his own family. And in the show, we've seen him win a JOUST with the Mountain and get saved by Sandor.

As for the three...Barristen Selmy for sure. I want to say the Mountain is one, but at the same time we know Jaime respects Gregor's strength, but does he think Gregor would best him in a duel? I'm not so sure. I'd bet Jaime is more wary of Sandor than Gregor actually. As for the third.....his father? <----mainly kidding, though I think Tywin has instilled the fear of God in his oldest son.

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Pretty sure Jaime reflects on Sandor being an utter monster to fight, moving with the sort of blazing speed that no man of his size should possess. Jaime's own strengths lie in, by his own admission, "speed and skill," so yeah. Sandor is probably one.

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I think what has to be recalled is that Jaime i saying that they could just "have a chance" against him, not defeat him. So, even if Jaime would ultimately win, I think the field can include somebody like Barristan Selmy who I think Jaime could defeat but that Jaime would know is still exceptionally dangerous.

A few people have mentioned Obyren Martel. For starters, even in the books we say Martel defeat exactly zero people. I mean, if you include the stable-boy that the Mountain cleaved in two when the OverRatED Viper moved. I don't think Jaime thinks too highly of the Viper- Jaime would never poison anyone and probably does not think too highly of men who do. Secondly- and maybe more germaine to this discussion - we don't even know if Obyren Martel exists in this universe. In our minds he does- we read about him dying like a punk and everything - but I treat the show like an "Alternate Universe" SoIaFand in this universe maybe Obyren ain't around.

What about Loras? Meh... Jaime probably does not think Loras would be good in an actual fight; in a tourney and riding a horse, Loras is second-to-none. But when life and death are at stake? I mean, who is better than Jaime in Jaime's mind? Not a tourney knight, for certain.

Here is who I think it is:

1. Barristan Selmy: Jaime speaks highly of Selmy both to his face and about him to other people. To Jaime Selmy is a legend in his own time and Jaime only thinks that way about one other person- himself.

2. Gregor Clegane: Remember, he need only stand a chance and Gregor's freakish size, strength and endurance must weigh heavily on Jaime's mind.

3. The Hound: I am not certain about this one, but Sandor is a killing machine, cold, merciless and decisive. Jaime has undoubtedly seen Sandor in action and could vouch for all this.

Its just a guess though. Maybe Jaime just threw out a number (in the same way we would say "I have told you a thousand times..." when we do not actually mean a thousand). Maybe he was trying to scare her; maybe Jaime just likes to talk. BUt if there are three men who could challenge Jaime Lannister it would be these three.

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I think he is talking about Robb Stark and Stannis Baratheon are two of them because the way the show works the kings are great warriors aswell

i do think the other one is Barristan the Bold because well lets face it he is a machine

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I think what has to be recalled is that Jaime i saying that they could just "have a chance" against him, not defeat him. So, even if Jaime would ultimately win, I think the field can include somebody like Barristan Selmy who I think Jaime could defeat but that Jaime would know is still exceptionally dangerous. A few people have mentioned Obyren Martel. For starters, even in the books we say Martel defeat exactly zero people. I mean, if you include the stable-boy that the Mountain cleaved in two when the OverRatED Viper moved. I don't think Jaime thinks too highly of the Viper- Jaime would never poison anyone and probably does not think too highly of men who do. Secondly- and maybe more germaine to this discussion - we don't even know if Obyren Martel exists in this universe. In our minds he does- we read about him dying like a punk and everything - but I treat the show like an "Alternate Universe" SoIaFand in this universe maybe Obyren ain't around. What about Loras? Meh... Jaime probably does not think Loras would be good in an actual fight; in a tourney and riding a horse, Loras is second-to-none. But when life and death are at stake? I mean, who is better than Jaime in Jaime's mind? Not a tourney knight, for certain. Here is who I think it is: 1. Barristan Selmy: Jaime speaks highly of Selmy both to his face and about him to other people. To Jaime Selmy is a legend in his own time and Jaime only thinks that way about one other person- himself. 2. Gregor Clegane: Remember, he need only stand a chance and Gregor's freakish size, strength and endurance must weigh heavily on Jaime's mind. 3. The Hound: I am not certain about this one, but Sandor is a killing machine, cold, merciless and decisive. Jaime has undoubtedly seen Sandor in action and could vouch for all this. Its just a guess though. Maybe Jaime just threw out a number (in the same way we would say "I have told you a thousand times..." when we do not actually mean a thousand). Maybe he was trying to scare her; maybe Jaime just likes to talk. BUt if there are three men who could challenge Jaime Lannister it would be these three.

Technically Martell drew with Gregor, not bad considering to only other person who gave him any trouble was Sandor and that was a no-contest. Stopped by referee.

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I can't tell you exactly where it was said, but I was going off the respect Jamie had for Blackfish.

As a tactician, yes. Remember in Feast where the Blackfish refuses to a duel? (I swear this happened didn't it). He knows he cannot beat Jaime at his best, and is weary of Jaime with one hand gone.

I think Gregor has to be in the discussion.Sure he's a brute, and all that but fuck he's a dangerous brute. There's no question in my mind the Hound is one, though.

And yeah - there probably was some hyperbole in there, I'm sure there are more than 3 men with a chance of beating him but still.

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As a tactician, yes. Remember in Feast where the Blackfish refuses to a duel? (I swear this happened didn't it). He knows he cannot beat Jaime at his best, and is weary of Jaime with one hand gone. I think Gregor has to be in the discussion.Sure he's a brute, and all that but fuck he's a dangerous brute. There's no question in my mind the Hound is one, though. And yeah - there probably was some hyperbole in there, I'm sure there are more than 3 men with a chance of beating him but still.

He didn't accept the duel because he didn't trust that Jamie had the clout to end the siege after Blackfish killed him in combat. Blackfish stated he woul kill Jamie especially with one hand is how I remember it. Prob have to re-read now!

Again, I have no prob with The Hound, Barriston, and The Mountain being the three as I would favor all three over Jamie with his good hand (already analyzed in the forum games section under PFP fighters in the books). I probably wouldn't favor Blackfish, I would have Syrio even money with Jamie.

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I dont think Jaime was referring to Oberyn. Oberyn is Dornish, and as we know the Dornish usually keep to themselves. I doubt Jaime has seen Oberyn in years, and he probably doesn't cross his mind too often. Same goes for Victarion Greyjoy, whoever mentioned him. He's obvioussly talking about Walder Frey, Wyman Manderly and Janos Slynt

But seriously, I'd assume he is speaking of Barristan, and possibly one or both of the Cleganes.

Side note: Didn't they say Randyll Tarly was the best soldier in the realm? Or did that factor in leadership as well?

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