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Died a Hero

[BOOK SPOILERS] Which 3 men did Jamie mean?

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I'm not really sure what you mean. People were using the tournament to justify including Loras (for defeating the mountain) but not Sandor (who defeated the actual guy the thread is about defeating).

They make no sense either, jousting tourneys have nothing to do with shat jamie was talking about in the scene.

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That was in no way a draw, Gregor was still alive and Martell was dead with a crushed skull. The Mountain won. There's no way he's thinking of the red viper, Jaime would have the same respect for a poisoner as he's got for archers/crossbow men. I'd agree with the previous posts, Mountain, Hound and Bold.

Oberyn can't be discounted as a poisoner. He fought in Essos and formed a mercenary company. His reputation is up there with anyone, he isn't some subtle poisoner who laces food, he just puts it on his weapons.

And it was very clear that Oberyn was a much better fighter than Gregor.

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That was in no way a draw, Gregor was still alive and Martell was dead with a crushed skull. The Mountain won.

There's no way he's thinking of the red viper, Jaime would have the same respect for a poisoner as he's got for archers/crossbow men.

I'd agree with the previous posts, Mountain, Hound and Bold.

They both died because of the battle, hence "draw".

Its semantics, but the mountain was clearly outfought during the fight, but he managed to pull out the draw.

Both oberyn and the mountain died at the other person's hands directly as a result of their fight.

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They make no sense either, jousting tourneys have nothing to do with shat jamie was talking about in the scene.

I don't know... There does seem to be a pretty strong correlation between acknowledged talent in battle and performance in that jousting tourney. In other words, everyone who is good in battle excelled in that tourney (Selmy, Jaime, the Mountain, the Hound,...). Thus there does seem to be some connection. Ser Loras might be seen as an outlier because he specifically trains to be very good at jousting (he's something of a specialist).

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I was really hoping that he'd name Loras in front of Brienne, so that she could let him in on her little secret, that she out did him.

Maybe it'll happen in the future?!

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I hope not because, regardless of the fact that I think that even in the TV show Jaime would ice Loras, it would be so out of character for Jaime to think that gay (I'd like to point out I'm not being homophobic- I'm saying Jaime and most other men in Westeros are), whiny Loras who cheats at jousting, hasn't fought a battle or killed a man and is slower, less experienced and smaller than himself would stand a chance? The man is arrogance personified, at least extrovertly and at this point! For him to back someone as in his league, they are going to need something special

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I don't know... There does seem to be a pretty strong correlation between acknowledged talent in battle and performance in that jousting tourney. In other words, everyone who is good in battle excelled in that tourney (Selmy, Jaime, the Mountain, the Hound,...). Thus there does seem to be some connection. Ser Loras might be seen as an outlier because he specifically trains to be very good at jousting (he's something of a specialist).

Fair point, in loras' case, i think he admits that garlan is a better sword than he is.

Robert was a terrible lance but excelled in battle and we know nothung beats experience-and disposition. The cleganes are just brutal, and loras was getting brutalized by the mountain when they actually fought.

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Agreed Mulled Wino, Gregor was out fought but Oberyn was killed and Tyrion lost his eggs. The Mountain might have been carried off the field but he was still alive. If anyone killed him it was Qyburn IMO. Seems pretty black and white to me.

Sorry Awesome Oberyn but I think from The Kingslayers perspective he wouldn't see the difference. I don't think putting poison on your weapons would sit well with Jaime's distorted sense of honor, He'd probably think it was weak.

Not wanting to de-rail the thread but I think I'm still a bit gutted Oberyn lost. As Tyrion said/thought "my life was in his hands and he dropped it".

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Agreed Mulled Wino, Gregor was out fought but Oberyn was killed and Tyrion lost his eggs. The Mountain might have been carried off the field but he was still alive. If anyone killed him it was Qyburn IMO. Seems pretty black and white to me.

Sorry Awesome Oberyn but I think from The Kingslayers perspective he wouldn't see the difference. I don't think putting poison on your weapons would sit well with Jaime's distorted sense of honor, He'd probably think it was weak.

Not wanting to de-rail the thread but I think I'm still a bit gutted Oberyn lost. As Tyrion said/thought "my life was in his hands and he dropped it".

Me too, i wanted the mountain to go down.

I think its explained later that there was no way clegane could survive the poison the vioer used. If anything qyburn made te mountain some sort of undead guy.

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For the most part I see people using the Clegane brothers and Ser Grandfather. Which is fine, but I don't think Jamie considers the Mountain a peer at all. He's freakishly large and a complete psychopath, but that doesn't make him a great fighter. The only entree that I've seen that would rival The Red Viper is Victarion Greyjoy, but I don't think Jamie would consider someone who wasn't even willing to test their mantel in a tourney worth his time. Granted, he was just talking about a one on one fight, which I think Victarion could hold his own, but I doubt Jamie would think the same. Ironborn trash and all.

And for Ser Loras...he's not even the best fighter in his own family and never saw a battlefield until Dragonstone. And we all know how that worked out. Plus he's a child in Jamie's eyes. There's no way he would even think of him as a worthy adversary.

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I'm going with: Barristan Selmy: He was Jamie's idol when he was younger wasn't he? Oberyn Martell: He's got the reputation of 'The Red Viper' and he's been fighting from when he was young Gregor Clegane: Cersie picked him to fight in Tryion's trial, not Sandor so it would seem he's a better fighter. He's the older brother as well, big brother always wins

But by this time the Hound was an outlaw,

I think - and what I'm about to say is in no way novel - that the three men are:

- Barristan Selmy - Barristan the Bold is a mighty warrior - one who Jamie looks up too... (but perhaps, now that he is no longer in his prime, Oberyn could take his place on this list)

- Gregor Clegane - because he's the fucking Mountain that Rides

- Sandor Clegane - IIRC a couple of different POV characters (i'm almost positive that Jamie is one of these few) have remarked upon The Hound's prowess with a sword with significant awe and fear

Perhaps Oberyn could take Barristan's place on my list. However, I don't think that Jamie considers him to be a serious threat. Jamie has witness both of the Clegane brothers in a fighting scenario, as well as Barristan.

Oberyn, on the other hand, is too distant. In my opinion, Jamie underestimates his skill because, well, he's down in Dorne.

I don't know why people keep thinking Loras is one of these three. Yes, he's young, he's wonderful, kicked ass at Ned's tourney, blah, blah, blah....but - and my recollection may not be 100 correct, so help me out if I'm mistaken - Jamie appreciates Loras because he reminds Jamie of himself at that age, and because of his considerable talent and potential. But as far as I'm concerned, Jamie doesn't fear Loras...

Edit: added Loras stuff

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What the hell? Jaime says in Feast that Loras is like him only not as strong and not as fast. Loras is not near the actual top tiers yet.

Guess the 3 he means are Baristan, Cleganes, maybe Oberyan ( real knows him as a dangerous fighter)

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Agreed Mulled Wino, Gregor was out fought but Oberyn was killed and Tyrion lost his eggs. The Mountain might have been carried off the field but he was still alive. If anyone killed him it was Qyburn IMO. Seems pretty black and white to me. Sorry Awesome Oberyn but I think from The Kingslayers perspective he wouldn't see the difference. I don't think putting poison on your weapons would sit well with Jaime's distorted sense of honor, He'd probably think it was weak. Not wanting to de-rail the thread but I think I'm still a bit gutted Oberyn lost. As Tyrion said/thought "my life was in his hands and he dropped it".

It's pretty explicitly stated that Oberyn killed Gregor with the poison.

Gregor won the fight technically but he was outmatched and left dying, probably even without the poison with all the blood he'd have lost, even Gregor can't lose loads of blood and live.

He'd probably look down on his use of poison but, fighting in Essos with your own mercenary company would give him the reputation as a fighter in war, something Jaime would respect far more than tourneys. And then he's probably a capable jouster, we know he takes part as he crippled Willas Tyrell.

And it definitely isn't Loras.

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It's strange how everyone remembers Loras beating Gregor but no one mentions that Sandor beat Jaime at that same tourney.

Agree...but what's equally strange is that so many people seem to forget that Loras defeated Gregor in a JOUST, not a sword fight. And that in both the book and the show, Loras is extremely distraught to find himself attacked by a seething Gregor.

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I doubt Jamie would see Loras Tyrell as his equal.

Or Oberyn. We as readers know the guy is all sorts of badass after his breakout fight with Gregor, but in-verse he's only known for a formidable sexual appetite, and... poisoning his weapons to get cheap wins.

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and no "wench" this episode

They have him brain his cousin but he can't call her wench. Very odd indeed.

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the Gregor Clegane of season 2 does not look like he could defeat either Jaime or Sandor IMO

:( shut up, that's a faceless man in training. REAL GREGOR will return (hopefully).

I think calling the Oberyn/Gregor duel a draw...is a fucking massive stretch. Gregor won the duel...mostly because Oberyn died right there? Gregor died from poison - sure he might have died from blood loss but we don't know that.

It's still Sandor, Gregor and Barristan.

Actually it's hyperbole - there are more than 3 people with a chance of beating Jaime. But those 3 all certainly fit the bill of having a chance of beating Jaime.

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Oberyn is a heir to a House held in no regard by anyone except for Tyrion, which it was smart for him to send her there in the first place. The enemy of your enemies is you friend!

NB: In English, we say “an heir” but “a hair”.

And no, Oberyn is not heir to House Martell. Arianne is, and after her her brothers. Uncles come after children.

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