[Book Spoilers] The countinuing emasculation of Jon Snow

[Sanette]

Of interest to this thread: interview with Kit Harington, who says he thinks Jon Snow is "quite stupid" and "doesn't think ahead"

Wait a moment, he was misquoted in that interview. He said it himself. I actually think he understands Jon more than the writers do.

[Mulled Wino]

That interview makes sense, sounds like he and the producers are on the same page, and it comes across onscreen. Thx for the link Shelly.

[Mulled Wino]

If someone says, "i kind of regret saying that. I think i was slightly misquoted." it sounds more like, i regret saying that SO ill say i was misquoted to me.

[Sanette]

If someone says, "i kind of regret saying that. I think i was slightly misquoted." it sounds more like, i regret saying that SO ill say i was misquoted to me.

Both could be true, I guess. Me and my friends were really pissed when he said that, though. At least he took it back. I wonder if he got that impression of Jon only after he read the scripts and talked with D&D about it, since the character was never this stupid in the book.

[Mulled Wino]

Both could be true, I guess. Me and my friends were really pissed when he said that, though. At least he took it back. I wonder if he got that impression of Jon only after he read the scripts and talked with D&D about it, since the character was never this stupid in the book.

I agree, he definitely seems to be on the same page as them. He said it multiple times in that interview too.

Agreed about taking it back, that was classy.

Jon's probably the second least impulsive child out of Ned's 6 kids behind only Sansa for chrissake!

[Le Cygne]

Jon had a father figure (from A Game of Thrones):

Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see...

Jon was never out of sight, and as he grew, he looked more like Ned than any of the trueborn sons she bore him. Somehow that made it worse. "Jon must go," she said now.

"He and Robb are close," Ned said. "I had hoped . . . "

"He cannot stay here," Catelyn said, cutting him off. "He is your son, not mine. I will not have him." It was hard, she knew, but no less the truth. Ned would do the boy no kindness by leaving him here at Winterfell.

The look Ned gave her was anguished...

He didn't have a mother figure, and Catelyn was cruel to him.

[Guest]

Sanette, thanks for the clarification. Thanks to KH too for giving his character more credit. I'm curious if he sees any contrasts between ShowJon and BookJon. I remember in past interviews that asked him that question, he seemed to focus more on differences in Sam and Jon's interactions. But now I wonder - does Jon make mistakes in books 2 and 3 from acting on impulse? I just remember big mistakes in book 5, which I thought KH hadn't read yet?

ETA: Agree with Mulled Wino - Jon is not an impulsive Stark. We see his thought processes and he usually considers things from all angles. He's a deep thinker.

[niñostark]

Ghost is the worst warg partner/guardian direwolf in history right now.

you made my day with this!!

and yes, they're making jon snow look like a moron

[Mulled Wino]

While these figures are all strong men, I'm not sure any of them would have been father figures to Jon. A father is more than a guiding hand and life-lessons, there's supposed to be love there as well. I'm not sure that Ned ever really showed Jon affection and I think the fact that such a strong potential father figure was there and they didn't connect would eat at Jon.

This is entirely wrong. Ned did show affection and certainly taught life lessons and was a guiding hand. Why assume otherwise. We know he did for Rob, and he and Jon were inseperable.

Jon learned in season 1 how to relate with other people his age, these next two seasons he's going to learn how to command them. Mormont criticizes Jon for not being able to look the other way, but that's not something he would've ever learned before. I have no doubt that Ned would teach he's sons to protect the weak but I seriously doubt he would teach them that discretion is occasionally the better part of valour (as he himself fails at this). So, Jon is learning something new this season its not a retread of stuff he should know so its not emasculating in my opinion. None of these things require maturity, or wisdom. He is a good sword fighter because he was trained to be, this is also how he killed the wight and, at least initially, why his peers respected him. As far as being selected as the LC's steward that means that people think he has the potential to be a great leader (and he does) not that he is ready to do so now. If Mormont thought Jon was ready to lead then he wouldn't have to groom him for the position.

Totally missing the point. No one is saying Jon shouldn't have some growing pains and make mistakes, the point is that all season they make Jon look like a dummy. Every alteration from the books have served to emasculate his character even more- almost comically. Additionally, they are giving other characters credit for doing things on the show that Snow did in the books.

He hasn't progressed at all yet this season. At least last season he learned a few lessons and moved on. There are 2 episodes left and he's going from blunder to blunder, I think they are going to ask us to make a massive leap of faith to believe that boob Jon can turn into the LC Jon.

No they didn't. They showed him getting slightly better.

which they aren't doing anymore

Becoming a man is not a simple step up, its a long and gradual process.

To become a greater man or woman, you have to be able to adapt and move forward. you can't get mired down in every new situation you find yourself in, there has to be an accumulation of knowledge (experience/teachings) that you draw from to handle new situations more effectively as you get older. If you don't, you'll never get anywhere. For example, he DEFINITELY learned some things from his father (who has said in the books that he treated Jon like a son by the way) about leadership. probably more so that socializing, which was one of his problems in season 1.

I totally think "goat fuckers" is in line with Qhorin's thinking about the wildlings. It's not a slight against their religion, or lack thereof, it's simply a statement about the way they live. It's even possible that it's true. I also find it interesting that Ygritte is quick to suggest something similar about the Night's Watch. Qhorin's been done quite well I think and I'm personally quite fine with the fact that the show went out and got good actors to play minor characters like him, Edd and others rather than blowing their money on CGIing direwolves into every scene.

You can't be serious with this.

Even the direwolf thing. no one wants them every scene but they are ESSENTIAL to the Starks. They were heavily relied on by the starks in GoT, but now all the sudden its like they're completely missing season 2. More inconsistency.

[Mulled Wino]

you made my day with this!! and yes, they're making jon snow look like a moron

At least Lady followed alongside the litter when they were going to KL. Freakin Ghost is doing whatever while Jon gets slapped around by Craster, while Jon gets lost, and when Jon gets taken prisoner.

He didn't even tell anyone about a wildling host of 30k with stinky ass giants and mommoths. I know he can't make noise but at least make it look like you try. Reminds me of one of my employees I'm dying to let go.

[Chaircat Meow]

Does anyone think Jon Show is badly out of character in regards to how he is in the books even without the addition of the incompetence? See, I don't really think getting knocked out by Craster or even chasing after Ygritte are essentially untrue to Jon Snow's character in the novels, but I think lots of other changes are.

In episode six, regardless of the farce of the chase storyline, Jon Show is I think less self aware and sympathetic before Ygritte gives him the slip than he is in the novels just before he lets her go. Its not just that he loses control of the situation, although he does, its the way he talks to her while he's trying to muster the resolution to execute her. Now, most of the dialogue in the show in that scene does follow A Clash of Kings closely, with the exception of one really crucial line which, had it been included, would have changed the whole scene.

In the book Jon Snow does indeed say 'I'm as much a crow as they are' and 'Someone might see the smoke' but he also asks Ygritte 'aren't you afraid?' Jon Show delivers the first two lines in a tone that sounds like he is trying to be a hard man. He is not showing sympathy with Ygritte and he doesn't want to let his guard down. I wouldn't exactly say his delivery was aggressive but there was no kindness there. Had the third line been included I think it would have been hard to play the scene that way. You don't ask 'Aren't you afraid' in the tone Jon Show was using.

Personally, the way I read the scene in the novels was that Jon Snow was sad and regretful when he said all three lines and wasn't afraid of letting his feelings show, but even if that is open to interpretation the third line makes it hard to believe Jon Snow's tone didn't soften at some point. He was quite willing to admit his weakness to Ygritte even while he was debating whether to kill her. I don't know whether the change between the book and the show emasculates Jon Show, in the way other changes do, but it does make him seem rather less thoughtful and kind than he was portrayed in the novels. Jon Show lacks depth and given the line in question is one of the few omitted from the scene it looks like the change was pretty calculated.

As to what happens after, if Ygritte had got away without this being the result of Jon Show changing his mind midstrike the chase wouldn't have been so out of character. Jon Snow is pretty green , its just he never comes across like the utter fool Jon Show did. Jon Show never really makes up his mind about what he wants to do. Its not even clear in the show he had decided to spare Ygritte at that point, he just couldn't kill her then. The way the scene played out gutted a noble decision completely and made Jon's decision, the product of mercy in the novels, seem like weakness and stupidity.

The additional scenes between Jon and Ygritte, although not in the novels do capture something of the dynamic between the two in the first half of a Storm of Swords, which I don't remember very well. But does anyone else think Jon Show has a bit too much sexual angst in these scenes, compared to the books? Jon Snow was broody about a lot of things but I didn't get the impression his enforced celibacy was really one of them. I had the impression he was more clueless and embarrassed when faced with Ygritte's persistence and I certainly don't remember him ever shouting at her or losing his cool in the way Jon Show did. Maybe I'm wrong about this but I can't imagine book Jon getting in a huff over mention of stones and bones. He was mighty offended when Tormund suggested he was a eunuch but that was it.

But the really stupid part of those scenes (and they were stupid all the way through) was Jon Show's reaction to Ygritte's offer of a life away from the wall in the wilds. She says something about having a cabin and women of his own etc, choosing what time to get out of bed and so on. Kit very convincingly shows how this offer hits home with Jon Show. His eyes wander everywhere looking mournful and confused, his voice is totally hoarse, he has to stop the conversation and ask her to move. The trouble is this reaction makes no sense at all. There is no indication in the books that Jon Snow would be even remotely tempted, at this stage, by the offer of a wildling life. For a start, he knows very little about it, but for an offer like that to have resonance it has to already mean something to the person in question. Moreover, although Jon's life did sort of suck I never got the impression he was ever that unhappy with it to consider upping ship and deserting. But if that is not the case why did he react that way to Ygritte's offer?

In the novels Jon and Ygritte's first meeting was all about culture shock. His knowing nothing was about his ignorance of (or sometimes his inability to accept) wildling culture. By having Ygritte really get to Jon in the way she did made him look thoroughly gullible and uncomfortable in his own skin in a way he was not in the novels. It was as though all his beliefs were collapsing the very first time they were exposed to serious questioning and he even got confused when he had to defend the role of the Night's Watch. It is true that throughout his sojourn with the wildlings in the novels he did have many of his cherished notions questioned and he certainly learned a lot but these changes make Jon Show seem like some indecisive caricature of all the weal elements of Jon Snow with none of the strengths.

[SerMixalot]

"You know nothing, Kit Harrington"

[Mulled Wino]

Does anyone think Jon Show is badly out of character in regards to how he is in the books even without the addition of the incompetence?

good start, yes

See, I don't really think getting knocked out by Craster or even chasing after Ygritte are essentially untrue to Jon Snow's character in the novels, but I think lots of other changes are.

As far as Craster's keep goes, I think it is because Jon would have been more aware of where Craster is and more composed, considering he just followed him. And where the hell was Ghost when snow was getting beat up?

I could see him chasing Ygritte, but not to where he loses his fellow rangers.

In episode six, regardless of the farce of the chase storyline, Jon Show is I think less self aware and sympathetic before Ygritte gives him the slip than he is in the novels just before he lets her go. Its not just that he loses control of the situation, although he does, its the way he talks to her while he's trying to muster the resolution to execute her. Now, most of the dialogue in the show in that scene does follow A Clash of Kings closely, with the exception of one really crucial line which, had it been included, would have changed the whole scene. In the book Jon Snow does indeed say 'I'm as much a crow as they are' and 'Someone might see the smoke' but he also asks Ygritte 'aren't you afraid?' Jon Show delivers the first two lines in a tone that sounds like he is trying to be a hard man. He is not showing sympathy with Ygritte and he doesn't want to let his guard down. I wouldn't exactly say his delivery was aggressive but there was no kindness there. Had the third line been included I think it would have been hard to play the scene that way. You don't ask 'Aren't you afraid' in the tone Jon Show was using. Personally, the way I read the scene in the novels was that Jon Snow was sad and regretful when he said all three lines and wasn't afraid of letting his feelings show, but even if that is open to interpretation the third line makes it hard to believe Jon Snow's tone didn't soften at some point. He was quite willing to admit his weakness to Ygritte even while he was debating whether to kill her.

I'm in agreement with this. Some of the banter when they were walking aimlessly showed some caring from Snow.

I don't know whether the change between the book and the show emasculates Jon Show, in the way other changes do, but it does make him seem rather less thoughtful and kind than he was portrayed in the novels. Jon Show lacks depth and given the line in question is one of the few omitted from the scene it looks like the change was pretty calculated.

I thought they illustrated his depth a little better season 1, I"m not feeling it right now. the scene with Gilly is another good example. All he does is get angry with Sam instead of really considering and empathizing with Gilly and Sam like he does in the books.

As to what happens after, if Ygritte had got away without this being the result of Jon Show changing his mind midstrike the chase wouldn't have been so out of character. Jon Snow is pretty green , its just he never comes across like the utter fool Jon Show did. Jon Show never really makes up his mind about what he wants to do. Its not even clear in the show he had decided to spare Ygritte at that point, he just couldn't kill her then. The way the scene played out gutted a noble decision completely and made Jon's decision, the product of mercy in the novels, seem like weakness and stupidity.

difference is emasculating, perceptive on your part.

The additional scenes between Jon and Ygritte, although not in the novels do capture something of the dynamic between the two in the first half of a Storm of Swords, which I don't remember very well. But does anyone else think Jon Show has a bit too much sexual angst in these scenes, compared to the books? Jon Snow was broody about a lot of things but I didn't get the impression his enforced celibacy was really one of them. I had the impression he was more clueless and embarrassed when faced with Ygritte's persistence and I certainly don't remember him ever shouting at her or losing his cool in the way Jon Show did. Maybe I'm wrong about this but I can't imagine book Jon getting in a huff over mention of stones and bones. He was mighty offended when Tormund suggested he was a eunuch but that was it. But the really stupid part of those scenes (and they were stupid all the way through) was Jon Show's reaction to Ygritte's offer of a life away from the wall in the wilds. She says something about having a cabin and women of his own etc, choosing what time to get out of bed and so on. Kit very convincingly shows how this offer hits home with Jon Show. His eyes wander everywhere looking mournful and confused, his voice is totally hoarse, he has to stop the conversation and ask her to move. The trouble is this reaction makes no sense at all. There is no indication in the books that Jon Snow would be even remotely tempted, at this stage, by the offer of a wildling life. For a start, he knows very little about it, but for an offer like that to have resonance it has to already mean something to the person in question. Moreover, although Jon's life did sort of suck I never got the impression he was ever that unhappy with it to consider upping ship and deserting. But if that is not the case why did he react that way to Ygritte's offer? In the novels Jon and Ygritte's first meeting was all about culture shock. His knowing nothing was about his ignorance of (or sometimes his inability to accept) wildling culture. By having Ygritte really get to Jon in the way she did made him look thoroughly gullible and uncomfortable in his own skin in a way he was not in the novels. It was as though all his beliefs were collapsing the very first time they were exposed to serious questioning and he even got confused when he had to defend the role of the Night's Watch. It is true that throughout his sojourn with the wildlings in the novels he did have many of his cherished notions questioned and he certainly learned a lot but these changes make Jon Show seem like some indecisive caricature of all the weal elements of Jon Snow with none of the strengths.

yes yes and yes.

one walk with Ygritte and he's doubting everything he ever believed. I know the writers are condensing here so I'm willing to overlook.

[Sanette]

I agree, he definitely seems to be on the same page as them. He said it multiple times in that interview too. Agreed about taking it back, that was classy. Jon's probably the second least impulsive child out of Ned's 6 kids behind only Sansa for chrissake!

I think that Jon can be quite impulsive when it concerns his honor or family. Like the time when he attacked Thorne in AGoT or ADWD or when he decided to march with the wildlings to kill Ramsey. It's the Targ side of his personality imo.

[Mulled Wino]

I think that Jon can be quite impulsive when it concerns his honor or family. Like the time when he attacked Thorne in AGoT or ADWD or when he decided to march with the wildlings to kill Ramsey. It's the Targ side of his personality imo.

Well, the Thorne thing wasn't necessarily spur of the moment. That was brewing for awhile, an impulsive person would have smashed him long before.

We don't know for sure that he was going to actually march with them though, he mentions it, but never has a chance to do it

He's certainly not as impulsive as Robb, Arya and Rickon. Bran is a tough one.

[Ghost714]

Well, the Thorne thing wasn't necessarily spur of the moment. That was brewing for awhile, an impulsive person would have smashed him long before.

We don't know for sure that he was going to actually march with them though, he mentions it, but never has a chance to do it

He's certainly not as impulsive as Robb, Arya and Rickon. Bran is a tough one.

Yeah and him marching against Ramsey had been building up for the second half of ADwD, I would not call it impulsive at all. Jon never marched against Ramsey before, because Ramsey never threatened the Watch before like he did that last time. Ramsey said he would only leave Jon and his "crows" alone, if Jon gave him(Ramsey) what he(Ramsey) wanted. Considering Jon could not give Ramsey what he wanted, even if Jon was willing to, because Jon did not have "Reek" and "Arya", that means he had no choice but to take the fight to Ramsey, in order to make sure the Wall was not attacked. The Wall, and the men that hold it, are the only things that are standing in the way of the Others, so Jon had to protect them at all cost.

So I would not call Jon's decision to march against Ramsey impulsive, at all. Actually, I would call it a very calculated decision. Jon had a nice advantage taking the Wildlings against Ramsey. The Wildlings pioneered the way of life for winter, so they can travel in a snow storm much faster than anyone else. So even if Ramsey did expect Jon to attack him, which I doubt he did, but he sure as hell would not expect Jon to attack so soon, because Jon and the Wildlings could get to Winterfell a lot faster than anyone else. Also, Ramsey had no idea Jon would have so many men, if anything Ramsey might have expected 500 crows at most, not close to two thousand Wildlings. Jon also would know Winterfell better than Ramsey. Jon also might have been planning to ambush Ramsey, as he left Winterfell to come get his bride.

There are a lot of other factors that Jon was probably considering too, I just named some of them, the point is, I do not think that was an impulsive decision at all.

[dreamcatcher]

You make a really good point. I've never looked at it this way but you're right. So they've been weakening his character from the get go. Great! I'm not against changes but what they've done to Jon is really pitiful. I mean, they took my favourite character from the books and made him a guy I would probably hate reading about. Dany is similar to show!Jon but that's just how she is written. And it's not just that they make him look stupid while doing dumb mistakes, they also have all the other characters tell him how stupid he is. And Jon just stares and says nothing. Even my father, who never read the books, thinks that Jon looks like an idiot.

My favourite scene from Jon's storyline this season is the dialogue between him, Sam and Gilly. It's straight out of the book and his character is the same. It's also Kit's strongest scene this season imo. And I agree with the point that D&D have their favourites. I almost never hear them talk about Jon or Kit. It's always the kids, Peter, Richard and Emilia. I believe the biggest mistakes within his storyline are somewhat reparable but I don't have high hopes at this point.

I think Kit is a good actor (he got the leading role in War Horse right after drama school for gods sake), but the problem is that he's doing what he can with the material that he has. I also think that the Gilly-Sam-Jon exchange was his strongest scene. We know Kit read the novels, so he's also as an actor probably torn between playing Jon Show and Jon Snow.

[Guest]

I think reading the pink letter publicly without consulting with more people first, and sending Mance to Winterfell were decisions that he seemed to regret. So I would call them impulsive, but not really moronic or vapid. I don't think the decision to attack Ramsay was that all that bad, I just wish he had thought about "how it would look" to his brothers. But this "act first, think later" quality is something that all the characters have, so I'm not sure why this is Jon's defining characterization.

Can I just say that I love the name Jon Show!

[Sanette]

I think Kit is a good actor (he got the leading role in War Horse right after drama school for gods sake), but the problem is that he's doing what he can with the material that he has. I also think that the Gilly-Sam-Jon exchange was his strongest scene. We know Kit read the novels, so he's also as an actor probably torn between playing Jon Show and Jon Snow.

Jon Show is gold! I'm gonna use it from now on. Kit's clearly following the scripts, they're making him emo and dumb so he's playing it like that. It would cause inconsistency if he switched from one to the other.

And regarding his decision to march against Ramsey, I think it was a good decision. I just don't think he considered every aspect of it. He had maybe three hours to decide what to do. That's not much. He should've realised that his brothers don't care for what happens in the kingdom. He was fighting with Bowen the whole time and he thought he would just roll with this? That doesn't seem like a well thought out decision to me. So, I think he was both impulsive and naive in this regard. But it just shows that he's not perfect and that's fine with me.

[Harrad]

Is he dead?