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Mulled Wino

[Book Spoilers] The countinuing emasculation of Jon Snow

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Agree :crying:

Robb's portrayal has been AMAZING until this episode. Now he's the doofus that will lose the North due to a woody ( and his life and the banner-men's lives). And Jaime is being made into a psychopath:(

Those writers must love Cersei and Caitlyn though. They are showing them as kinder and gentler women than they are in the books.

Not to derail, but Jamie is a psychopathic. They went a bit overboard, but he's undeniably a psycho.

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Huh? That's exactly why he killed QH. So he can turn and do what's right for the watch!!!!!!!!! even more baffling, how is it not urgent? do you remember the chase? Men died to try and protect them from getting caught, they were hunted to exhaustion and starvation and I think even their garrons died. They were trapped by wildlings after making their last ditch effort to lose them through the waterfall. They decided to make a last stand as men of the watch. The book was FAR more urgent. The show is nothing. They were captured so easily, there's nothing urgent at all going on. How is it not more active than to hunt them for days or weeks then the show. I really dont get any of this post

Mulled, I said from the Wildling point of view. It seemed a hastily put together plan at best and I failed to see why the Wildlings would have taken Jon in, even after killing Qhorin. And I still feel like the natureal human tendency in that situation is to keep running, So it just didn't ring true for me the way it was setup. Thats opposed to show situation where the sword is really already on Quorins neck, even if there is no literal action like running/fighting, so there is no alternative. Thats why I compared it to Catelyn situation. In the book in both cases there still felt like alternatives were left, where in the show there really weren't the way things were set up. Now maybe people like it that the characters made choices when there backs weren't against the wall, but I don't.

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Mulled, I said from the Wildling point of view. It seemed a hastily put together plan at best and I failed to see why the Wildlings would have taken Jon in, even after killing Qhorin.

Um because he'd just killed one of the greatest Rangers in history?

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Mulled, I said from the Wildling point of view. It seemed a hastily put together plan at best and I failed to see why the Wildlings would have taken Jon in, even after killing Qhorin. And I still feel like the natureal human tendency in that situation is to keep running, So it just didn't ring true for me the way it was setup. Thats opposed to show situation where the sword is really already on Quorins neck, even if there is no literal action like running/fighting, so there is no alternative. Thats why I compared it to Catelyn situation. In the book in both cases there still felt like alternatives were left, where in the show there really weren't the way things were set up. Now maybe people like it that the characters made choices when there backs weren't against the wall, but I don't.

With respect what the hell. Third Reed is right, the motivation for the wildlings will be exactly the same in both cases, so...what gives. The HBO set up is also full of stupid plot holes, like Qhorin being thick enough to trust Jon Show to execute Ygritte, even when the previous scene established Qhorin thought Jon was a complete fool. Grrm's version makes sense, HBO's not so much.

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Mulled, I said from the Wildling point of view. It seemed a hastily put together plan at best and I failed to see why the Wildlings would have taken Jon in, even after killing Qhorin. And I still feel like the natureal human tendency in that situation is to keep running, So it just didn't ring true for me the way it was setup. Thats opposed to show situation where the sword is really already on Quorins neck, even if there is no literal action like running/fighting, so there is no alternative. Thats why I compared it to Catelyn situation. In the book in both cases there still felt like alternatives were left, where in the show there really weren't the way things were set up. Now maybe people like it that the characters made choices when there backs weren't against the wall, but I don't.

How were their backs not against a wall, what other choice did they freaking have?? Run back through the cave and hope the Wildlings weren't waiting on the other side?? Even if the Wildlings were not waiting on the other side, Orell's eagle would have found them again, and that means the Wildlings would have found them again. They literally did everything. they. possibly. could. to. get. away. It just was not enough, and if you actually remember right, Jon and Qhorin's horses were spent, because they pushed them so hard trying to get away, for so long. That's why the book version is so much freaking better, because they absolutely did EVERYTHING they could, they did everything right, and it still wasn't enough, that's why it really made you feel for them in the book, because it just was not enough. The show on the other hand, they didn't do shit to get away. Ygritte made it seem like they would be tortured and killed upon immediate capture, yet nothing happens, there is no since of urgency at all. In fact, the show couldn't have done anything else to be MORE anticlimactic.

And how is it more "believable" if they are forced by the Wildlings to fight? That makes no sense at all. If Jon says, "hey I want to join you", and then fights and kills Qhorin, it's much more believable.

If he is already captured, and the Wildlings say fight, and afterwards he says he wants to join them, that's not believable, it seems like he joined them because it was that or die, instead of him "actually wanting to join". The situation might be similar in both the book and show, when it's all said and done, but there is no way the show version makes more sense. I don't know if your just trying to be contrary or what, but your a little out voted on this one, it seems nobody even slightly agrees with you. Like someone said above me, the shows version is littered with plotholes, the book version is not.

Edit for spelling.

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sorry to pile on but.....

Just to get this straight, you think Jon Show somehow earned a higher respect level amongst the wildlings so they would be more apt to take him in than Jon Snow, correct?

you do realize that Jon Show just walked into a trap and laid down like a dog on the show correct. From a wildling perspective, Jon Show would have earned less than zero respect. Jon Snow had to have earned respect, and they didn't even take him prisoner until he killed QH, he was going to fight to the death. Jon Show bitched up from the second more than one wildling showed his face.

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What they are doing wrong is that they are not showing the competence, tenacity and ability to survive that Jon Snow has.

He wouldn't have beaten up Craster, though, because Craster would have been angrier at the Night's Watch then. And they need his shelter.

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This is my biggest complaint this season. So far HBO has made some great changes, condensing material and making it interesting to viewers. But what they have done beyond the wall has made no sense.

They have transformed Jon into an incompetent fool, not a leader of men.

What was one of the most exciting chapters beyond the wall when QH and Jon Snow were riding to warn the wall and other rangers were making epic last stands has been cut out. Instead we have 3 dead rangers on the account of Jon's mistake. Who in that room thought this was a good idea?

With 2 episodes left it's conceivable that Jon and QH can still do some damage together. But HBO needs to come up with something big to save it.

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Yes I fucking hate how you can tell who their favorites are, and who they could give a shit less about. I have said it before, and I will say it again, you should not be able to tell who the writers personally like and who they don't like. They basically force the audience how to view a character, and it's bullshit. They should let the audience deside who they do, and don't like. We get it, you guys love Ros and you think your so clever for creating her. We get it, you love Tyrion, Littlefinger, Theon, Arya, and Margaery, and you hate Stannis and Jon. Their own take on characters should not reflect on how they write the characters... It makes me so angry, let the audience think for themselves!

It's ridiculous how blatantly obvious it is. I find it funny though, how they managed to mess up even the characters they like. Show Littlefinger looks like a fool and the amount of whitewashing of certain characters(Cersei, Tyrion, Arya) is startling. I don't feel like they outright hate Stannis but they don't put any effort into telling his story. With Jon it's even worse. All of us have a character that we dislike for some reason but we are casual fans. They are producers/writers/showrunners and it's extremely unprofessional to show who they prefer. At this point it seems like they just want to show Jon looking like an incompetent idiot. Maybe they want his growing into a man to be more dramatic but that doesn't explain why they changed his whole storyline, made fun of him and just totally downgraded his whole personality. I appreciate that they went to Iceland to shoot his scenes but the atmosphere just isn't there. First you gotta have some drama, shooting on a glacier won't do the work for you. It's really hard for me to take D&D seriously after the things they did this season.

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What I don't get is why they have made these changes? Virtually all of the other changes good or bad I can see reasons for making.

Is it for the sole purpose of developing the Jon/Ygritte love thing?

Is it because the nights watch turns out to be bad and the show doesn't want to display their acts of heroism?

Is it because the HBO doesn't want to devastate fans when Jon is killed?

Maybe Jon killing QH won't translate well to tv?

Any thoughts?

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What I don't get is why they have made these changes? Virtually all of the other changes good or bad I can see reasons for making. Is it for the sole purpose of developing the Jon/Ygritte love thing? Is it because the nights watch turns out to be bad and the show doesn't want to display their acts of heroism? Is it because the HBO doesn't want to devastate fans when Jon is killed? Maybe Jon killing QH won't translate well to tv? Any thoughts?

1) Developing their relationship is basically the only reason I find valid. Although like someone said in this thread, they could've developed it after Qhorin's death. And I don't think that understanding of the wildlings' culture is that necessary at this point in the story. We'll get to know them next season, just as we did in ASoS. But it seems like they're going to end Jon's storyline in the third season with Ygritte's death, so maybe they wanted to have a quick start. (Rose Leslie said she's signed on for season 2 and 3 and Josef Altin is supposed to film his scenes this September.) But this in no way explains what they did to Jon's character.

2) I don't think I've heard that theory yet.

3) They should make him likeable if he's going to die. Look what they do with Robb.

4) l don't think so. I've always considered that scene to be perfect for the visual medium. It has so much drama and fatality. Well, not anymore.

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It's ridiculous how blatantly obvious it is. I find it funny though, how they managed to mess up even the characters they like. Show Littlefinger looks like a fool and the amount of whitewashing of certain characters(Cersei, Tyrion, Arya) is startling. I don't feel like they outright hate Stannis but they don't put any effort into telling his story. With Jon it's even worse. All of us have a character that we dislike for some reason but we are casual fans. They are producers/writers/showrunners and it's extremely unprofessional to show who they prefer. At this point it seems like they just want to show Jon looking like an incompetent idiot. Maybe they want his growing into a man to be more dramatic but that doesn't explain why they changed his whole storyline, made fun of him and just totally downgraded his whole personality. I appreciate that they went to Iceland to shoot his scenes but the atmosphere just isn't there. First you gotta have some drama, shooting on a glacier won't do the work for you. It's really hard for me to take D&D seriously after the things they did this season.

Me and you are of a single mind my friend. That's my thoughts exactly.

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It's ridiculous how blatantly obvious it is. I find it funny though, how they managed to mess up even the characters they like. Show Littlefinger looks like a fool and the amount of whitewashing of certain characters(Cersei, Tyrion, Arya) is startling. I don't feel like they outright hate Stannis but they don't put any effort into telling his story. With Jon it's even worse. All of us have a character that we dislike for some reason but we are casual fans. They are producers/writers/showrunners and it's extremely unprofessional to show who they prefer. At this point it seems like they just want to show Jon looking like an incompetent idiot. Maybe they want his growing into a man to be more dramatic but that doesn't explain why they changed his whole storyline, made fun of him and just totally downgraded his whole personality. I appreciate that they went to Iceland to shoot his scenes but the atmosphere just isn't there. First you gotta have some drama, shooting on a glacier won't do the work for you. It's really hard for me to take D&D seriously after the things they did this season.

Amen.

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It's ridiculous how blatantly obvious it is. I find it funny though, how they managed to mess up even the characters they like. Show Littlefinger looks like a fool and the amount of whitewashing of certain characters(Cersei, Tyrion, Arya) is startling. I don't feel like they outright hate Stannis but they don't put any effort into telling his story. With Jon it's even worse. All of us have a character that we dislike for some reason but we are casual fans. They are producers/writers/showrunners and it's extremely unprofessional to show who they prefer. At this point it seems like they just want to show Jon looking like an incompetent idiot. Maybe they want his growing into a man to be more dramatic but that doesn't explain why they changed his whole storyline, made fun of him and just totally downgraded his whole personality. I appreciate that they went to Iceland to shoot his scenes but the atmosphere just isn't there. First you gotta have some drama, shooting on a glacier won't do the work for you. It's really hard for me to take D&D seriously after the things they did this season.

That's pretty hilarious. I would never have figured Littlefinger was one of their favourites. They've made him an amateur where he was a complete pro in the books. I just figured they were stuck with giving Aiden Gillen so much screen time a season and wrote him terrible scene after terrible scene as a result.

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What I don't get is why they have made these changes? Virtually all of the other changes good or bad I can see reasons for making. Is it for the sole purpose of developing the Jon/Ygritte love thing? Is it because the nights watch turns out to be bad and the show doesn't want to display their acts of heroism? Is it because the HBO doesn't want to devastate fans when Jon is killed? Maybe Jon killing QH won't translate well to tv? Any thoughts?

I think the most charitable explanation is that D & D do just interpret Jon differently from the majority of posters on this thread. A minority of posters do think their changes make sense, even from a character point of view (as hard as it is to understand that), so they're not absolutely out of line with possible ways of viewing Jon's character.

I think they did also want more screen time for Rose Leslie and for her to be with Jon sans the rest of the rangers. As a result of their changes though the Jon/Ygritte dynamic is now way off already. Why would Ygritte fall for such a total tool?

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I think the most charitable explanation is that D & D do just interpret Jon differently from the majority of posters on this thread. A minority of posters do think their changes make sense, even from a character point of view (as hard as it is to understand that), so they're not absolutely out of line with possible ways of viewing Jon's character.

I think they did also want more screen time for Rose Leslie and for her to be with Jon sans the rest of the rangers. As a result of their changes though the Jon/Ygritte dynamic is now way off already. Why would Ygritte fall for such a total tool?

Haha. I was already thinking about this when someone posted recently in here about the wildling customs or something along those lines. No spearwife would ever ever accept Jon Show. Sure he took her prisoner but she outwitted him with ease. He would have been gutted and burned in a flash.

Let me make it clear that if Rose Leslie is Ygritte, i want more screen time for her as well. Yowza!

They obviously have a skewed perception of Jon, but I just cant let it slide. Just because there's a very small minority that believe things like "John Show is a more acceptable turncloak than Jon Snow because Jon Snow didnt exhaust all his options" doesnt mean that the producers get a pass on their explanations. They really blew it.

With the blueprint that GRRM laid out, these guys should be killing it. Forget being a point or two higher than other fantasy series. This series could smash even Sopranos or The Wire. The spectrum of people who can relate to these books is as wide as any of those other programs. Ive turned quite a few friends who hate fantasy writing on to these books and they all get hooked.

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That's pretty hilarious. I would never have figured Littlefinger was one of their favourites. They've made him an amateur where he was a complete pro in the books. I just figured they were stuck with giving Aiden Gillen so much screen time a season and wrote him terrible scene after terrible scene as a result.

I don't think they have to like that particular character. Sometimes they just love the actors which means they'll use them more and write more scenes for them. Which I think is the case with Littlefinger and Tywin. Why else would they give them so many scenes even though they don't really appear in the book? Either they love the character or the actor (or both), but the result is the same. The fact that the writing is not so good is a wholly different problem. Regarding Littlefinger, I feel like they wanted to flash out his character more but it didn't really work.

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Haha. I was already thinking about this when someone posted recently in here about the wildling customs or something along those lines. No spearwife would ever ever accept Jon Show. Sure he took her prisoner but she outwitted him with ease. He would have been gutted and burned in a flash.

Let me make it clear that if Rose Leslie is Ygritte, i want more screen time for her as well. Yowza!

They obviously have a skewed perception of Jon, but I just cant let it slide. Just because there's a very small minority that believe things like "John Show is a more acceptable turncloak than Jon Snow because Jon Snow didnt exhaust all his options" doesnt mean that the producers get a pass on their explanations. They really blew it.

With the blueprint that GRRM laid out, these guys should be killing it. Forget being a point or two higher than other fantasy series. This series could smash even Sopranos or The Wire. The spectrum of people who can relate to these books is as wide as any of those other programs. Ive turned quite a few friends who hate fantasy writing on to these books and they all get hooked.

Exactly! GRRM gave them everything they needed to be the most successful show ever on HBO, and what do they do? They piss it away like a day old flagon of Arbor gold when you first wake up in the morning. The first season is pretty succesful, so they get it in their heads that it's because of them, and then they think they can make any change they want. When in reality, the first season did so well because they actually stuck to the source material(for the most part).

I am in no way talking about a word for word adaptation, obviously that's not possible. Obviously they can't do everything do to budget and time restrictions etc.. But so many changes have just been so piss poor this season, and there have been to many changes just for the sake of being different.

GRRM tried to give them the keys to the Kingdom, they just rather smash their way in, making blunder after blunder.

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The first season is pretty successful, so they get it in their heads that it's because of them, and then they think they can make any change they want. When in reality, the first season did so well because they actually stuck to the source material(for the most part).

THIS.

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