[Book Spoilers] The countinuing emasculation of Jon Snow

[victim]

It could be done in a very similar to the "wolf" dream that Bran had in episode 1 of this season, and is also directly from the books. You don't even really have to see Ghost, you just need to see the camera moving through a wolfs POV before looking down at a giant camp of Wildlings; cut to Jon waking up, telling Qhorin his dream before Qhorin then tells him his own plans. It wouldn't be too hard to go down this path.

[SerMixalot]

It could be done in a very similar to the "wolf" dream that Bran had in episode 1 of this season, and is also directly from the books. You don't even really have to see Ghost, you just need to see the camera moving through a wolfs POV before looking down at a giant camp of Wildlings; cut to Jon waking up, telling Qhorin his dream before Qhorin then tells him his own plans. It wouldn't be too hard to go down this path.

But then they couldnt show jon being a moron, now could they?

[Sanette]

You're right, it could be done but it's a long shot at this point in the season. Next episode is probably going to be just the battle so you have only the finale to deal with all the storylines. So I expext seeing just the fight with Qhorin and maybe a small look at the aftermath of that. If we get anything more than that, I'll be really surprised tbh.

[Chaircat Meow]

Jon Show is gold! I'm gonna use it from now on. Kit's clearly following the scripts, they're making him emo and dumb so he's playing it like that. It would cause inconsistency if he switched from one to the other. And regarding his decision to march against Ramsey, I think it was a good decision. I just don't think he considered every aspect of it. He had maybe three hours to decide what to do. That's not much. He should've realised that his brothers don't care for what happens in the kingdom. He was fighting with Bowen the whole time and he thought he would just roll with this? That doesn't seem like a well thought out decision to me. So, I think he was both impulsive and naive in this regard. But it just shows that he's not perfect and that's fine with me.

Sanette, I think the writers are primarily responsible for the atrocity that is Jon Show but I'm not convinced some of Kit's acting decisions haven't played a role and perhaps influenced the way D & D decided to develop the character. Let me just say right off that I would hate to think this comes across as being disrespectful or hostile to Kit, who I agree is a good actor and I'm sure he is doing his best with the role. He has as much right to interpret Jon Snow as the rest of us. Nevertheless I find it hard to believe Jon Show's almost comical gormlessness in season 1, when the script did not require it in most places, isn't due in part to how Kit interpreted the part. I doubt the director was asking him to have his mouth hanging open all the time whenever he was receiving a dressing down, as well as on lots of other occasions.

I just found his expressions really unfortunate as they didn't convey that he was thinking much about anything that was said to him. They just made him look stupefied and shocked. It looked like it was hard for him to adsorb a lot of what was said to him. I think book Jon can think on his feet, at least to a fair degree and that he is an intense, earnest thinker. Kit's expressions definitely conveyed the opposite, imo. His expression when he was given Ghost was just horrible, kind of an 'urgh, is this a white wolf, maybe, need to think hard?' When Mormont talked to him about his attempted desertion his mouth just never closed the whole way through! It made me such a sad panda.

He came across as by far the most dopey and slow witted of the main characters and I think this was at least in part due to Kit's decisions. It seems at least plausible that this influenced D & D as the script in season 2 does require Kit to look mighty stupid, especially when Qhorin talks to him. He has to look very dumb for Qhorin's 'you are even dumber than you look,' line to work and boy did Kit deliver!

Again, no hostility or disrespect to KH is intended by this post.

[Mulled Wino]

It could be done in a very similar to the "wolf" dream that Bran had in episode 1 of this season, and is also directly from the books. You don't even really have to see Ghost, you just need to see the camera moving through a wolfs POV before looking down at a giant camp of Wildlings; cut to Jon waking up, telling Qhorin his dream before Qhorin then tells him his own plans. It wouldn't be too hard to go down this path.

Why do Ghost? Jon's already going there...... It would make the Jon Show/Ghost storyline more laughable. So you are suggesting that Ghost finally shows up after Jon Show's been captured out of the blue? I just want to be clear.

Where has Ghost been? What was he doing all this time, why is he playing voyeur?

Summer was with Bran so it makes sense that he's there looking at Bran's face.

[Mulled Wino]

Sanette, I think the writers are primarily responsible for the atrocity that is Jon Show but I'm not convinced some of Kit's acting decisions haven't played a role and perhaps influenced the way D & D decided to develop the character. Let me just say right off that I would hate to think this comes across as being disrespectful or hostile to Kit, who I agree is a good actor and I'm sure he is doing his best with the role. He has as much right to interpret Jon Snow as the rest of us. Nevertheless I find it hard to believe Jon Show's almost comical gormlessness in season 1, when the script did not require it in most places, isn't due in part to how Kit interpreted the part. I doubt the director was asking him to have his mouth hanging open all the time whenever he was receiving a dressing down, as well as on lots of other occasions. I just found his expressions really unfortunate as they didn't convey that he was thinking much about anything that was said to him. They just made him look stupefied and shocked. It looked like it was hard for him to adsorb a lot of what was said to him. I think book Jon can think on his feet, at least to a fair degree and that he is an intense, earnest thinker. Kit's expressions definitely conveyed the opposite, imo. His expression when he was given Ghost was just horrible, kind of an 'urgh, is this a white wolf, maybe, need to think hard?' When Mormont talked to him about his attempted desertion his mouth just never closed the whole way through! It made me such a sad panda. He came across as by far the most dopey and slow witted of the main characters and I think this was at least in part due to Kit's decisions. It seems at least plausible that this influenced D & D as the script in season 2 does require Kit to look mighty stupid, especially when Qhorin talks to him. He has to look very dumb for Qhorin's 'you are even dumber than you look,' line to work and boy did Kit deliver! Again, no hostility or disrespect to KH is intended by this post.

this post is right in line with Kit's feelings about the character being stupid and impulsive.

[Sanette]

Sanette, I think the writers are primarily responsible for the atrocity that is Jon Show but I'm not convinced some of Kit's acting decisions haven't played a role and perhaps influenced the way D & D decided to develop the character. Let me just say right off that I would hate to think this comes across as being disrespectful or hostile to Kit, who I agree is a good actor and I'm sure he is doing his best with the role. He has as much right to interpret Jon Snow as the rest of us. Nevertheless I find it hard to believe Jon Show's almost comical gormlessness in season 1, when the script did not require it in most places, isn't due in part to how Kit interpreted the part. I doubt the director was asking him to have his mouth hanging open all the time whenever he was receiving a dressing down, as well as on lots of other occasions. I just found his expressions really unfortunate as they didn't convey that he was thinking much about anything that was said to him. They just made him look stupefied and shocked. It looked like it was hard for him to adsorb a lot of what was said to him. I think book Jon can think on his feet, at least to a fair degree and that he is an intense, earnest thinker. Kit's expressions definitely conveyed the opposite, imo. His expression when he was given Ghost was just horrible, kind of an 'urgh, is this a white wolf, maybe, need to think hard?' When Mormont talked to him about his attempted desertion his mouth just never closed the whole way through! It made me such a sad panda. He came across as by far the most dopey and slow witted of the main characters and I think this was at least in part due to Kit's decisions. It seems at least plausible that this influenced D & D as the script in season 2 does require Kit to look mighty stupid, especially when Qhorin talks to him. He has to look very dumb for Qhorin's 'you are even dumber than you look,' line to work and boy did Kit deliver! Again, no hostility or disrespect to KH is intended by this post.

Well, I agree with most of your points. Yes, he looks stupefied in most of his scenes this season. But I don't think he did last season. And his mouth has been talked of so many times. I think, it's just a thing he does and can't or doesn't want to control it. I'm not sure how detailed the scripts are, so if it says he's supposed to look shocked, then he can't really do anything else. However, it could be his personal decision to play Jon like this. I have no idea. And that scene with Qhorin is really the worst. I was facepalming the whole way through. Not only that he looks stupid but he doesn't even fight back. And the same thing applies to that scene where he finds the direwolves. I think, it was you who described how they made him look weak in that particular scene in comparison to the book where he comes out as a strong character. Which brings us back to the scripts and the acting like you said. It's a combination of both. But the writing is the main problem imo. If they didn't write him like this, then Kit would play Jon differently. Probably.

Edit: And I didn't take your post as disrespectful. You make valid points! I'm glad that people actually take time to contribute to a discussion without assaulting the actors and really try to understand their choices while playing the character.

And yeah, now I completely understand why Kit said that Jon is stupid. Because Jon Show is.

[Patchface12]

How long has it been since you have read ACoK? Jon's story is in no way better on the show, than it is in the book. There was nothing unbelievable about Mance accepting Jon in the book, if you can call it that, he had Jon watched like a hawk night and day. Also, killing Qhorin is a pretty good move, for making the Wildlings think you have turned your cloak. I really don't see though, how you think it's more believable for Mance to accept Jon in the show, considering it hasn't even happened yet, you don't know what all they are going to do, so I don't know how you can make some bogus claim like that. What "scenario" are you talking about exactly? And how can Jon's story be better than the book, when they are making him look like an idiot the whole time, and there is no Warg element to his story in the show, and that was one of the best things about his story in the book.

I haven't read ACoK since summer 07, so its probable I forgot quite a bit, but I remember the gist of it. If anything, maybe Jon's chase with Ygritte was to develop her character more. Annoyed I was that they've kind of pushed the Halfhand to the side, Ygritte's going to be around until Season 4 whereas Qhorin's going to die in episode 10 Valar Morghulis. Plus, as I said, Qhorin was more of the 'strong silent type' in the books and didn't have that many lines to begin with.

[Guest]

@Patchface - there is no "Ygritte character development" or arc, all you need is that one beheading scene to know that she's feisty and brave, like Osha with red hair. She's static all the way through, only there to develop Jon's character (like most women in fiction /facepalm). I think thus far we can say that he botches his first real test in the wild and he gets shamed for idealizing celibacy, so in both developments Jon is not looking too bright.

As far as the Kit/acting question goes, I think his best acting was at Craster's (and those scenes were snooze-worthy). I haven't seen him in anything else so I have nothing to compare. Maybe in other work he actually uses his facial muscles and he doesn't look miserable all the time. Then we know it's not just him, and that Benioff and Weiss are taking Ygritte's catch phrase too literally.

[Chaircat Meow]

This character arc seems more about Jon discovering his duty to the Night's Watch than anything else. Jon has no love for the Wall in my opinion; he definitely thought it would be different and there would be more good men there like Benjen and Jeor, rather than rapists and thieves. He saw it as his only option as the Bastard of Winterfell who wanted to make his own claim on society. He remembers being a child with Robb and saying that he wanted to be the "Lord of Winterfell." Even though he knew he couldn't he still had big aspirations and the Wall was the best place for a bastard to make a name for themselves. I think the question is why does anyone like Jon as a character? He's a spoilt brat who thinks he deserves more than he does because of who his father is. I think a lot of his story in the show so far has revolved around learning how to become a brother of the Night's Watch and this is very much the way his character arc in Season 2 has played out. In many ways, Jon ends up giving-up himself to be a black-cloak on the Wall, evident in his betrayal to Ygritte at the Queenscrown because he is more loyal to the Watch than he is to the girl he loves. Season 2 has to be all about how he gets to this point. Right now, he's making an absolute mess of things, I can't argue that, and everyone around him seems to have his better. Mormont's line of "learn how to follow" seems to be quite important to his story arc; Jon is still, at this point, struggling with the fact that he is in no way a leader and that people can easily push him around. Most importantly, Jon's learning that he's clearly not as big as he thinks he is. In the episode summary for 'Valar Morghulis' "Jon proves himself to Qhorin." As readers it seems pretty obvious what this is going to be. The thing is that this will be the first time Jon has followed the orders of a leader around him; as in, perhaps he has finally discovered his duty. It's hard to argue because episode 10 is still a week and a half away but I'm assuming Jon and Qhorin will have one more dialogue interchange where Qhorin tells him what to do, Jon says he won't do it, and Qhorin reminds him of his duty before they ultimately fight and Jon goes off with his Wildling band. Next season should really iterate just how unimportant he is up until the point where he does -- arguably -- the most important thing any member of the Night's Watch has done in a century. As in, he risks his life to get back to the Wall before the Wildlings and informs them all of their oncoming war, saving the Watch in the process. He does this because he finally understands his duty as a brother. The boy at the beginning of AGoT would be thrilled to be elected Lord Commander, it is known. But Jon isn't because he knows that either way his duty is to the Wall no matter what his position is.

I think you are correct as to how Jon's character arc will play out in the show. I know its probably been said before but it seems like they think deviating substantially from the path of Jon's development in the books will make for better tv. His choices will seem more dramatic and more pronounced and he'll have more of an underdog appeal. The downside is, as the OP says, that Jon Show is an emasculated version of the book character. He's more bratty and spoilt than Jon Snow was even at the start of GoT.

It does seem to me, though, that they will have to change the whole tone of Jon's sojourn with the wildlings for the show. In the books he's a developing young man when he goes over, he has resigned himself to the life of the night's watch and he handled himself well on his first ranging. The way I read CoK was that Jon matured substantially throughout the book and became very stoic and serious in his dedication to the Night's Watch, esp because of Qhorin, but before that too. The stuff in Storm tested that but it sure didn't create it.

In the show on the other hand he's just a train wreck and it seems to me that Ygritte, or someone, will have to build him up again. He is going to have to have a colossal amount of character development, in particular rapid gains in maturity, telescoped into his time with the wildlings. That's just not how it worked in the books.

Also I can't for the life of me see why Ygritte will ever be attracted to him in this state (even when he does kill Qhorin). Fools who get all their comrades killed through indecision and confusion don't seem like Ygritte's cup of tea. At least Jon Show is pretty.

[Sanette]

@Keep Shelly in Athens: Yeah, Ygritte is just a literary device. But since they felt the need to develop Talisa/Jeyne, they probably wanted to do the same with Ygritte and her culture. Except the fact that they made Jon look like a fool while doing it. And Ygritte was never this arrogant and mean in the book. Yes, she teased Jon and made fun of his ignorance but she never mocked him for being a virgin. Especially when we know his reasons for it.

Yes, those scenes were his best and he looked perceptive and quite clever in them (both Jon and Kit)... until Craster beat the shit out of him. The way he looked around Craster's keep and saw the women, the scene with Gilly. That's exactly how Jon would react. I'd be willing to overlook Craster making fun of his face and the lord commander chiding him if they continued his storyline in this vein. But they made it much worse. Anyway, I only saw some

from War Horse and he was great in them. It's theatre so he must use his facial muscles a lot. Keep in mind that he played a 14-year old boy in it.

[Mulled Wino]

Can't speak for Patchface, but I always felt like there wasn't enough set up from the Wilding side when it came to Jon's turn. Even with him killing Qhorin it felt wierd for the next step to be join the wildlings,

Huh?

That's exactly why he killed QH. So he can turn and do what's right for the watch!!!!!!!!!

and ialso Jon killling Qhorin didn't feel quite urgent enough (similar to Cat releasing Jaimie-I don't think it was always the reasoning that bothered people but the absence of urgency, hence the show putting Jaimie in a situation where he would ide if he wasn't released), so much so that I question whether book Jon really could kill Quhorin at that point.,

even more baffling, how is it not urgent? do you remember the chase? Men died to try and protect them from getting caught, they were hunted to exhaustion and starvation and I think even their garrons died. They were trapped by wildlings after making their last ditch effort to lose them through the waterfall. They decided to make a last stand as men of the watch. The book was FAR more urgent. The show is nothing. They were captured so easily, there's nothing urgent at all going on.

That transition kind of makes more sense to me if the Wildling play a more active role in setting up Quhorins death, presenting Jon with sort of a choice, but in a way no choice at all.

How is it not more active than to hunt them for days or weeks then the show. I really dont get any of this post

[Ghost714]

Huh?

That's exactly why he killed QH. So he can turn and do what's right for the watch?

even more baffling, how is it not urgent? do you remember the chase? Men died to try and protect them from getting caught, they were hunted to exhaustion and starvation and I think even their garrons died. They were trapped by wildlings after making their last ditch effort to lose them through the waterfall. They decided to make a last stand as men of the watch. The book was FAR more urgent. The show is nothing. They were captured so easily, there's nothing urgent at all going on.

How is it not more active than to hunt them for days or weeks then the show. I really dont get any of this post

Exactly! The book was way more "urgent", them getting captured in the show was so anticlimactic, it's not even funny. First Jon loses Ygritte(again), only to look up and see he is surrounded, and he is just like "damn oh well", he doesn't try and run or anything. He doesn't spin around in circles trying to find a way out, he just stands there, it is ridiculous. Then we just see Qhorin with Rattleshirt, already captured, they didn't even have Qhorin talk about it. They could have given Qhorin thirty seconds to explain how they got captured. Something like, "yeah they surprised us, and killed our two Brothers, but not before we sent seven of them to hell". One line like that could have made a big difference, but instead we just see Qhorin captured and a little bloody, and the other two are dead, yet we don't even see any injured Wildlings. Hell, they could have even given the line to Rattleshirt, about how Qhorin and the two with him killed X amount of their men. Instead we get nothing, the most badass Nights Watch Rangers were taken like a bunch of chumps. I can get past them not showing Qhorin getting taken, but not talking about it was just lame as hell.

[cromagnificent]

I'm gonna say you need to already be masculine in order to be emasculated. Jon isnt a very masculine character. He's a rich virgin who's never gotten into a real fight. Sure he killed a zombie by lighting it on fire but it wasn't exactly skilled hand to hand combat. He's a petulant entitled teenager and I think k. Harrington is doing a good job showcasing that.

[Mulled Wino]

Exactly! The book was way more "urgent", them getting captured in the show was so anticlimactic, it's not even funny. First Jon loses Ygritte(again), only to look up and see he is surrounded, and he is just like "damn oh well", he doesn't try and run or anything. He doesn't spin around in circles trying to find a way out, he just stands there, it is ridiculous. Then we just see Qhorin with Rattleshirt, already captured, they didn't even have Qhorin talk about it. They could have given Qhorin thirty seconds to explain how they got captured. Something like, "yeah they surprised us, and killed our two Brothers, but not before we sent seven of them to hell". One line like that could have made a big difference, but instead we just see Qhorin captured and a little bloody, and the other two are dead, yet we don't even see any injured Wildlings. Hell, they could have even given the line to Rattleshirt, about how Qhorin and the two with him killed X amount of their men. Instead we get nothing, the most badass Nights Watch Rangers were taken like a bunch of chumps. I can get past them not showing Qhorin getting taken, but not talking about it was just lame as hell.

The scenes on the show had ABSOLUTELY NO DRAMA.

I really think the post I responded to was some sort of troll post because it couldn't have possibly made less sense.

QH would never ever be captured and if by some herculean effort he was, there would be a full infirmary within walking distance

[The Frostfangs]

As long as he chops of janos slynts head I dont care what else happens.

[Mulled Wino]

I'm gonna say you need to already be masculine in order to be emasculated. Jon isnt a very masculine character. He's a rich virgin who's never gotten into a real fight. Sure he killed a zombie by lighting it on fire but it wasn't exactly skilled hand to hand combat. He's a petulant entitled teenager and I think k. Harrington is doing a good job showcasing that.

simple disprove here:

1) he killed a watcher at the skirtling pass and took ygritte prisoner. and did it so bosslike that she wanted to bang him forever afterward.

2) he beat all the other new recruits asses consistently

Horrible post.

[Mulled Wino]

Exactly! The book was way more "urgent", them getting captured in the show was so anticlimactic, it's not even funny. First Jon loses Ygritte(again), only to look up and see he is surrounded, and he is just like "damn oh well", he doesn't try and run or anything. He doesn't spin around in circles trying to find a way out, he just stands there, it is ridiculous. Then we just see Qhorin with Rattleshirt, already captured, they didn't even have Qhorin talk about it. They could have given Qhorin thirty seconds to explain how they got captured. Something like, "yeah they surprised us, and killed our two Brothers, but not before we sent seven of them to hell". One line like that could have made a big difference, but instead we just see Qhorin captured and a little bloody, and the other two are dead, yet we don't even see any injured Wildlings. Hell, they could have even given the line to Rattleshirt, about how Qhorin and the two with him killed X amount of their men. Instead we get nothing, the most badass Nights Watch Rangers were taken like a bunch of chumps. I can get past them not showing Qhorin getting taken, but not talking about it was just lame as hell.

This is another example I should have included in the OP. It was easier taking Snow prisoner than it is to get my 2 yr old to let me brush her fucking teeth! He just looked around and saw some people standing there and was like, "ok, I'll do whatever you want, who wants to cut my balls off?". That might the the most emasculating scene of all so far.

[Guest]

I think the emasculation term is a poor one, because no one is saying Jon Show is gay, feminine, or a eunuch. Better to say he's dumbed down, slow, and stupid--like ShowTyrion is whitewashed and ShowCat is irrational. "Stupid" doesn't have a gender. If he's kept in a perpetual state of childhood, then the infantilization of Jon Snow might be a better descriptor.

[jarl the climber]

I have to agree, he is acting more like Waymer Royce, make that Ser Waymer Royce, he was knight no matter what else he was than than like the bastard son of Ned Stark who was well educated at Winterfell and liked because he usually understood his place, hence his joining the Watch voluntarily. He is acting more like a willful child than a young man who was castle bred and raised. He would know from Winterfell how a subordinate acts towards his Lord. In the book he gives his objections about Craster to Mormont privately, when they are leaving instead of almost getting himself killed doing something stupid and embarresing his superior who had just previously warned hom about his behaivior. It would have made more sense for Mormont to send him back to the Wall to muck stables after that rather than to keep him with the ranging much less send him with the Halfhand. Its not realistic in terms of a military organization like the Nights Watch.