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David Selig

[Book Spoilers] The Whitewashing of Tyrion

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Even if that where the case, in that scenario I think it's highly unlikely that he would be able to join in. Even, or maybe especially, under orders from his father. People just aren't wired like that...even the Tyrion from the books. It makes more sense that he was made to watch. As for how it played out in the book, my recollection is that the rape scene happened, and then it wasn't until much later that he was told (by Jaime I think??) that she had actually been a hired prostitute. ...I could be way off.

Actually, Shelly got it right:

First he made my brother tell me the truth. The girl was a whore, you see. Jaime arranged the whole affair, the road, the outlaws, all of it. He thought it was time I had a woman. He paid double for a maiden, knowing it would be my first time.

After Jaime had made his confession, to drive home the lesson, Lord Tywin brought my wife in and gave her to his guards...

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Actually, Shelly got it right:

Well there you go. Thanks for pulling the quote. Though it doesn't change the ridiculousness of a situation where someone can 'make' someone else go last, and they can actually do it.

I remember Jaime confessing something else to Tyrion later, I thought it was regarding that scene. I think when he releases him from prison?

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Well there you go. Thanks for pulling the quote. Though it doesn't change the ridiculousness of a situation where someone can 'make' someone else go last, and they can actually do it. I remember Jaime confessing something else to Tyrion later, I thought it was regarding that scene. I think when he releases him from prison?

Yup. It was then when Tyrion learned that Tysha had never, in fact, been a whore.

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That's not what I got, probably because he ended up falling for Shae. I think Tyrion really loved Tyesha (sp) and doesn't have that stigma attached to whores. He was resigned to whores after that, but I think that's because he always felt awkward around women, not because of what his father did. If you loved someone as much as Tyrion claims he did his first love, I just don't see how you can finish the rape train.

Yeah, as far as first time sexual experiences go, this one has to be one of the worst and least likely. But it does make sense that Tywin would punish Tyrion for marrying a low-born girl, and then make up some fake story. Making Tyrion look like a idiot who married a whore. Apparently, gang raping a commoner isn't a disgrace to the Lannister name, but marrying one is.

But I think his love of Tysha was soured once Jaime told him it was a set up. I guess my interpreation is that, with both Tysha and Shae, he thought he was loving an illusion, and both times he felt betrayed. So he had no problems raping Tysha or killing Shae. That's why I thought it was important to include in the show. Although I suppose audiences would be just as confused as most folks when they read that scene. "What do you mean Nice Guy Tyrion participated in a gang rape of his own wife?!?" Well, its because some Nice Guys do rape their wives, and furthermore, the act wasn't about sex or getting turned on, it was about Tywin forcing him to assert his power as a Lannister.

In ADWD I think he feels sorry for himself (not really for Tysha though) after he realizes that she was sincere. Even more tragically (disturbingly?), he doesn't realize that even if she was a whore, Tysha could still have fallen in love with him. He only cares about her when he finds out she was really a crofter's daughter.

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Well there you go. Thanks for pulling the quote. Though it doesn't change the ridiculousness of a situation where someone can 'make' someone else go last, and they can actually do it.

I remember Jaime confessing something else to Tyrion later, I thought it was regarding that scene. I think when he releases him from prison?

Well there you go. Thanks for pulling the quote. Though it doesn't change the ridiculousness of a situation where someone can 'make' someone else go last, and they can actually do it.

I remember Jaime confessing something else to Tyrion later, I thought it was regarding that scene. I think when he releases him from prison?

I don't think it's that ridiculous. If I married this girl and fell in love with her, and thought she loved me, only to find out she was going along with a prank, and that she was really a whore, I would give her one last go, just to treat her like the whore I believed her to be.

Not to mention Tywin told him to do it, and Tyrion already knew he was on Tywin's bad side for bringing that "shame" down on their House. So it's not like Tyrion would want to make his dad more mad. Also, he was a thirteen year old boy, at that age you will screw anything. I highly doubt Tywin was just setting there watching his son pump away on this girl, so again it's not that ridiculous, especially in the world of aSoIaF.

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The Tyrion of the show more or less seems the same as his book counterpart.

Tho they might take him down a darker path in the next two seasons that encompass Storm of Swords.

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Pyromancer himself: "Our order does not deal in pig shit!"

In the books, “pig shit” gets precisely one mention:

There was nothing sweet about Sisterton, though. It was a vile town, a sty, small and mean and rank with the odors of
pig shit
and rotting fish. Davos remembered it well from his smuggling days. The Three Sisters had been a favorite haunt of smugglers for hundreds of years, and a pirate’s nest before that. Sisterton’s streets were mud and planks, its houses daub-and-wattle hovels roofed with straw, and by the Gallows Gate there were always hanged men with their entrails dangling out.

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In the books, “pig shit” gets precisely one mention:

There was nothing sweet about Sisterton, though. It was a vile town, a sty, small and mean and rank with the odors of
pig shit
and rotting fish. Davos remembered it well from his smuggling days. The Three Sisters had been a favorite haunt of smugglers for hundreds of years, and a pirate’s nest before that. Sisterton’s streets were mud and planks, its houses daub-and-wattle hovels roofed with straw, and by the Gallows Gate there were always hanged men with their entrails dangling out.

What's your point lol?

Pig shit is just what Bronn called the wildfire.

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i believe they will tie the wildfire to the sewer system,which will be a workable solution to the tyrion saves KL conundrum.

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Maybe because it's so physically implausible? I don't know, it made me shake my head while reading as well. So his 'wife' is being pillaged by a bunch of guards, and he is then able to ....perform? He's physically aroused? It's either a tale of horror or it's not, and if it's horrific then he doesn't have an erection. I think making him watch makes much more sense. (sorry for the thread derail...yes, Tyrion's character has been whitewashed).

It's actually possible to be physiologically aroused and even reach orgasm even though the person really doesn't want to have sex. Belief that it's impossible is hurtful for rape victims to whom it happened, as it adds to the shame.

Watching people having sex is usually arousing (if not the porn industry would not exist, let alone be as profitable as it is), plus, if the "reveal" of her being a whore and pretending to love him was not enough, it's not a stretch to imagine Tyrion being forced to stimulate himself to "perform". He might even have been given some kind of aphrodisiac to help. Let's not forget that book-Tywin is more fearsome than TV-Tywin, and that Tyrion was still a young boy very much under the authority of his father. Point is: it's really not as unlikely as you think.

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In the same boat of people saying they really softened and simplified the characters. A shame on the writers, who decided not to give the audience any credit. This is the same network who had very rich characters in Al and his Gem Saloon, Tony Soprano, Avon Barksdale, etc. You can love and hate a character at the same time, and still feel engaged in the story.

It's just so strange that one of the most deep fantasy series in ASOIAF is getting the stupid treatment, and from HBO no less.

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FWIW I think they are going to replace the chain with some trick with pig shit as evident by tyrions expression when mentining pig shit to Bronn and Varys

Lol - if true then Bronn will have a burning pig shit as his banners later in the series.

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Re: Tyrion's participation in the gang-rape of Tysha.....it's the same gut-reaction that leads him to kill Shae. As someone mentioned above, he was in love with both, believed- against all likelihood- that they loved him- ugly and pathetic as he believed he was. Add to that the betrayal was twofold in both instances: with Shae, as his own father then hypocritically bangs his son's whore, with Tysha, his beloved Jaime lied to him. Worlds o' hurt and anger in all that mess. As the experts are always saying, rape is often not a crime based in lust, but in anger. If a modern-day real world rapist can get it up out of anger so can a fictional medieval one. So I can definitely buy his participation. He was mad at the world for being made such a fool, and the only person he could take it out on at that time was Tysha. He believed Tywin's assessment of her b/c Jaime substantiated it and I thoroughly believe Tyrion wouldn't have crossed Daddy for the world at that time. So he did as he was told.

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for me i cannot empathize with tyrion raping tysha, being able to perform in that scenario (thankfully), but I suppose, being aware of the vast number of sexual predilictions in this world, I can see it as feasible. I can trust the author in that sense, that Tyrion could or would "get it up" for whatever reason. It certainly fits with his relationship to his father, his view of himself. We can certainly see and appreciate that single act has had on his character.

Again, reading the situation in the book I could not understand how any man could perform under that scenario, the stress alone would be too much to allow for the needed mechanics to work. So I am left (not having a real world parrallel) to trust GRRMs thesis and move on.

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Yeah, as far as first time sexual experiences go, this one has to be one of the worst and least likely. But it does make sense that Tywin would punish Tyrion for marrying a low-born girl, and then make up some fake story. Making Tyrion look like a idiot who married a whore. Apparently, gang raping a commoner isn't a disgrace to the Lannister name, but marrying one is. But I think his love of Tysha was soured once Jaime told him it was a set up. I guess my interpreation is that, with both Tysha and Shae, he thought he was loving an illusion, and both times he felt betrayed. So he had no problems raping Tysha or killing Shae. That's why I thought it was important to include in the show. Although I suppose audiences would be just as confused as most folks when they read that scene. "What do you mean Nice Guy Tyrion participated in a gang rape of his own wife?!?" Well, its because some Nice Guys do rape their wives, and furthermore, the act wasn't about sex or getting turned on, it was about Tywin forcing him to assert his power as a Lannister. In ADWD I think he feels sorry for himself (not really for Tysha though) after he realizes that she was sincere. Even more tragically (disturbingly?), he doesn't realize that even if she was a whore, Tysha could still have fallen in love with him. He only cares about her when he finds out she was really a crofter's daughter.

I'm following you here. Perhaps I'm just not the gang rape type, lol. Especially not going last. Sorry pops, you can kill your son over that one. I don't think even Tywin would kill his son for failing to commit gang rape.

And I DEFINITELY agree with the bold. Tyrion is all about Tyrion.

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for me i cannot empathize with tyrion raping tysha, being able to perform in that scenario (thankfully), but I suppose, being aware of the vast number of sexual predilictions in this world, I can see it as feasible. I can trust the author in that sense, that Tyrion could or would "get it up" for whatever reason. It certainly fits with his relationship to his father, his view of himself. We can certainly see and appreciate that single act has had on his character. Again, reading the situation in the book I could not understand how any man could perform under that scenario, the stress alone would be too much to allow for the needed mechanics to work. So I am left (not having a real world parrallel) to trust GRRMs thesis and move on.

I would be a horrible gang raper as well.

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Tyrion did not think of it as "gang rape", he thought she was a whore who fucked for money. I don't see why some people are thinking it wouldn't be possible for Tyrion. Tyrion watched all his fathers men do Tysha, but that does not mean they watched him doing her.

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It's a highly sensitive topic and interpretations vary wildly, but I think it shouldn't matter that he found out she was a whore, it should matter that Tywin lied and had a girl raped. Tysha, the "supposed whore" could still be raped even if she got paid for it. Even if she agreed to do it for money, she got brutalized very badly in the end.

In the show the story is used to add a tragic cast to Tyrion's first marriage - and that's it. I doubt we will see any real exploration of how it shaped Tyrion's present views on women. BookTyrion thinks that rape and murder are the best ways to get vengeance against people he thinks are false to him. He's different from Al Swearengen in that he's not killing whores to keep his money prospects humming along. Instead, he believes he'll never find someone who loves him despite his wealth, name, and ugliness, and that all pretenders are "traitorous cunts." I hope the show writers make it clear that Tyrion has tunnel vision here and that we don't simply see things from his "woe is me" POV.

In future seasons/books, what would really screw with Tyrions head is if he finds out that Tysha was flattered by the proposal because of his rank and station, because she dreamed of becoming a Lady--not because it was "true wuv." But, maybe she was the real deal for him (after one day? hard to see though). I bet Tysha, if she is alive, is an actual whore now. Sad irony!

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I didn't even remember every single point you brought up about Tyrion's supposed darkness. To me that just seems like nitpicking. It's not like the producers skipped those details because they make him look bad. They skipped them because they are such minor details that there was no justifiable reason whatsoever to add them. Honestly they don't even make him look bad.

Also wtf @ at the person who called Show Tyrion the Ned Stark of the Lannisters. You people must have ignored the fact that he knows about his siblings' incest and their plot to kill Bran, yet he does nothing about it because he doesn't want to ruin his own family. He does not have the same kind of ruthless compassion-less honor that Ned Stark had.

And all of the dirty plots of his are still dirty, even if they are against characters we deem as antagonists. And sleeping with tons of whores is supposed to make him morally superior as well? What show are you people watching!?

Tyrion on the show is no paragon of virtue and it is extremely laughable that just because some minor tidbits were left out, that he suddenly became one as a result.

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