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David Selig

[Book Spoilers] The Whitewashing of Tyrion

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I'm not sure how this characterization is going to pull off the crossbow-on-the-privy incident, since the person on the receiving end of that hasn't been portrayed (on-screen anyway) as evil enough.

Tyrion goes after Tywin when Jaime tells him the truth about Tysha. I think that will be evil enough. Then there's finding Shea in Tywin's bed to add fuel to the fire.

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plus once Tywin reaches Kl I am sure there will be alot of conflict between Tyrion and Tywin, I have confidence in that

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I hope, because there should have been a lot more conflict between Tyrion and Cercei this season than it did (WTF Cercei opening up to him about her relationship with Jaime?). In general I don't like with what they did with the character this season, he's just farting around too much like if he was on vacation. That's why his line about liking to play the game in this episode kinda pissed me off, because it didn't really feel like he was playing it all that much. Particularly I didn't get the sense that he had to navigate and circumvent other powerful people with their own agendas, and the buildup to the battle came a bit too late. I guess that's what you get when whitewashing Cercei.

Edit:

In the show the story is used to add a tragic cast to Tyrion's first marriage - and that's it. I doubt we will see any real exploration of how it shaped Tyrion's present views on women. BookTyrion thinks that rape and murder are the best ways to get vengeance against people he thinks are false to him. He's different from Al Swearengen in that he's not killing whores to keep his money prospects humming along. Instead, he believes he'll never find someone who loves him despite his wealth, name, and ugliness, and that all pretenders are "traitorous cunts." I hope the show writers make it clear that Tyrion has tunnel vision here and that we don't simply see things from his "woe is me" POV.

I agree a lot with this. The Tyrion-rapist backstory is a device just there to add to his angst and daddy issues. It's not about Tysha's suffering, but all about his and the fact that he can't be loved "for who he is". Alas, that makes it a rather cheap and thoughtless use of such a traumatic experience as a literary tool.

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Not really, he offered her Lancel instead of him and she refused and said "let's get this over with".

Sansa didn't want to marry either Lancel or Tyrion, so his offer was already not a great one. Moreover, the Lannisters had prepared everything for the marriage with Tyrion and both Cersei and Joffrey had told her in no uncertain terms she was to go along, or else. Cersei even mentioned being dragged screaming to the altar. Tyrion then coming up with his "offer" (to choose between the pest and the cholera), after the king and queen regent had already made it clear she would be married today, to Tyrion, is not credible at all.

This was literally minutes before the wedding. What do you think Cersei would have done if Sansa had told her that she would indeed marry a Lannister, but could she please have (injured) Lancel instead of Tyrion?

I think a beating would have been in order to drive home the point that neither the king nor the queen regent can be disobeyed.

If Tyrion had made the same offer the day before the wedding, then maybe (as much as it was worth) it could have changed the outcome. Sansa could have attempted to run to the Tyrells and Tyrion could have told his family to fetch Lancel instead (if he could even stand at that time; he was still recovering from his injuries). As it was, Tyrion was later than the late lord Frey and maybe was just giving Sansa the offer so he could delude himself to think she went along of her own accord.

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I disagree, I think Tyrion could have successfully convinced both his father and the queen that Lancel would be a good choice for her. It'd still give a Lannister claim to Winterfell, after all. Also, Tyrion brings up Lancel and asks if he's well enough to wed earlier than that, shortly before they tell Tyrion he's to marry Sansa, so the notion is already planted.

“You did not ask for this marriage, I know. No more than I did. If I had refused you, however, they would have wed you to my cousin Lancel. Perhaps you would prefer that. He is nearer your age, and fairer to look upon. If that is your wish, say so, and I will end this farce.”

Perhaps his claim was more bravado than common sense, but I think his offer was genuine. No, Sansa didn't want Lancel either, but it was not unreasonable to expect her to slightly prefer Lancel to Tyrion.

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I definitely can't argue with this. HBO found a huge fan favorite in Tyrion, and they don't want to tarnish his image. It also makes me wonder how they are going to portray him in the Tyrion/Sansa marriage. I hope they don't make Sansa look like a bitch. Even though they like him so much, I don't see what the total harm would be in making him a little "grey." It makes him more interesting. Having him as the only "purely nice" Lannister (that we know well, besides the children) is just not right. The writers have taken a lot of the grayness out of character in the show. I guess some viewers get overwhelmed with too much "moral complexity."

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I definitely can't argue with this. HBO found a huge fan favorite in Tyrion, and they don't want to tarnish his image. It also makes me wonder how they are going to portray him in the Tyrion/Sansa marriage. I hope they don't make Sansa look like a bitch. Even though they like him so much, I don't see what the total harm would be in making him a little "grey." It makes him more interesting. Having him as the only "purely nice" Lannister (that we know well, besides the children) is just not right. The writers have taken a lot of the grayness out of character in the show. I guess some viewers get overwhelmed with too much "moral complexity."

Yeah but you would think HBO would be loving all the grey in the characters, that's what makes the books so good, and that's what really gets people addicted to them. I think the writers are just taking the craven-ly way out. They

took risks in doing a fantasy show, they took risks with casting some people with very little experience, and now that all their risks have paid off, they are to worried to lose viewers to truly risk making things as gritty as they are in the books. They are trying to cater to the average viewers way to much this season. If they stuck more to the books, as far as grey characters go, sure then the show might not be for everyone, but the people that did like it would love it, and they would be dedicated fans from then on out, just like with the books. The books aren't for everyone, but for the people that do like them, they are completely hooked. I just wish the show would find their balls again, and take some risks, that way they can truly make something great, and not just your everyday tv show, that everyone has seen before.

It's not like HBO is against morally grey characters, True Blood, Boardwalk Empire, shows like that have plenty of them. That's why I think it's the writers getting to comfortable, and not HBO stopping the greying of characters.

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In the same boat of people saying they really softened and simplified the characters. A shame on the writers, who decided not to give the audience any credit. This is the same network who had very rich characters in Al and his Gem Saloon, Tony Soprano, Avon Barksdale, etc. You can love and hate a character at the same time, and still feel engaged in the story. It's just so strange that one of the most deep fantasy series in ASOIAF is getting the stupid treatment, and from HBO no less.

I agree with you on some levels, that some of the characters have been simplified in the TV series (We get it...Littlefinger is a pimp. Give him a feathered hat and a cane and be done with it.) However, I think some of the TV versions of Martin's characters are more multi-faceted than their book counterparts. Two that come to mind are

Cersei - The scene with Robert in season 1 where the king and queen are discussing their sham of a marriage showed a vulnerable and pitiful side to Cersei. She once admired, wanted, and maybe even loved Robert on some level, but there was never a chance because he never truly moved on after Lyanna's death. I almost got the feeling that, if Robert had any shred of love for her, that maybe events in KL would have unfolded quite differently. Also, the scene where Cersei shares the story of her miscarriage with Catelyn humanized her a little. I never got that impression of Cersei in the books; there, she's just a conniving bitch with no redeeming qualities...well, maybe her cheekbones.

Viserys - I felt the weight of his burden (being the last surviving male Targaryen, having the entire dynasty on his shoulders, getting Rodney Dangerfield levels of no respect) far more in the TV series than in the first book, I think mainly due to Harry Lloyd's acting, which was superb. While that doesn't justify or excuse his repulsive attitude and threats toward his sister, it does at least explain the reasoning behind them. A villain is far more interesting when you understand his/her motives to some degree, even if you disagree with them.

I find Theon Greyjoy and Tywin Lannister to be every bit as flawed and complex in the series as they are on screen, even if they are portrayed in somewhat of a more sympathetic light.

However, I'm with you on some of the other characters. I actually enjoyed Jon Snow's character development in Season One, but find him to be pretty dull and flat in Season 2. He's far too brooding and sullen so far this season, which makes him very one-dimensional and boring.

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I've been thinking that Tyrion will not kill Shae on the show. If he does it'll be by accident or by her own doing...She'll somehow be a casualty in the confrontation between Tyrion and Tywin.

I hope you're wrong on this, but fear you might not be. If you are right, then the title of this thread is very appropriate.

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I've been thinking that Tyrion will not kill Shae on the show. If he does it'll be by accident or by her own doing...She'll somehow be a casualty in the confrontation between Tyrion and Tywin.

In this season of Mad Men,

Don Draper strangles a former lover to death, then shoves her under his bed. It horrified audiences until...dun dun dun! It was only a dream sequence.

Even Don Draper, notorious misogynist that he is, doesn't go as far as Tyrion. I think him killing Shae in such a gruesome manner, by his own hands, will be absolutely shocking...they have to do it.

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Tyrion is a strange case. On one hand, both he and Cersei are not connected to some of the "bad" acts they did in the books to make Joff look like a comic book villain. In addition, I always got the sense that Tyrion in the books was just using Shae for sex, GRRM never sold me on that relationship. Basically he'd just visit her for sex then leave. He's the "main character" now so they are writing him accordingly.

On the other Tyrion has not been shown to actually do much of anything to slow down the war. I forget if they mentioned the chain or not, but if they leave it out then they left out one of his better ideas. He's basically doing a whole lot of sitting around and complaining. Figuring out how to spy on his sister and threatening her is all well and good, but there's a war coming....do something.

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It also makes me wonder how they are going to portray him in the Tyrion/Sansa marriage. I hope they don't make Sansa look like a bitch.

Given that they have taken the heart and soul out of Sansa's character and character development this season and made Tyrion in to a completely good guy, the chance of HBO not portraying the marriage with Tyrion as the victim and Sansa as the bitch who doesn't see how uber lucky she is to be forced into a marriage against her will is fairly low.

Which is very sad as forced marriage affects many women in the world today and like Sansa thousands of them go along with it because they have no other choice due to cultural expectations or violent repercussions.

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Given that they have taken the heart and soul out of Sansa's character and character development this season and made Tyrion in to a completely good guy, the chance of HBO not portraying the marriage with Tyrion as the victim and Sansa as the bitch who doesn't see how uber lucky she is to be forced into a marriage against her will is fairly low. Which is very sad as forced marriage affects many women in the world today and like Sansa thousands of them go along with it because they have no other choice due to cultural expectations or violent repercussions.

I doubt it, they could just as easily play it the way it was played in the books, with both of them being very uncomfortable with it, that seems far more likely than victim-blaming Sansa for something that any modern audience would cringe at. They can keep Tyrion as the good guy and Sansa as the not-bitch, it's not that hard.

I can't see any reason for not going this route.

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Yeah but you would think HBO would be loving all the grey in the characters, that's what makes the books so good, and that's what really gets people addicted to them. I think the writers are just taking the craven-ly way out. They took risks in doing a fantasy show, they took risks with casting some people with very little experience, and now that all their risks have paid off, they are to worried to lose viewers to truly risk making things as gritty as they are in the books. They are trying to cater to the average viewers way to much this season. If they stuck more to the books, as far as grey characters go, sure then the show might not be for everyone, but the people that did like it would love it, and they would be dedicated fans from then on out, just like with the books. The books aren't for everyone, but for the people that do like them, they are completely hooked. I just wish the show would find their balls again, and take some risks, that way they can truly make something great, and not just your everyday tv show, that everyone has seen before. It's not like HBO is against morally grey characters, True Blood, Boardwalk Empire, shows like that have plenty of them. That's why I think it's the writers getting to comfortable, and not HBO stopping the greying of characters.

This, I honestly don't get the way they're taking morally questionable decisions and changing them to be nicer. This is from the network that did the Sopranos, a show full of despicable people, they should be totally at home with the original work.

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This, I honestly don't get the way they're taking morally questionable decisions and changing them to be nicer. This is from the network that did the Sopranos, a show full of despicable people, they should be totally at home with the original work.

Exactly, that's why I don't think it's HBO causing the changes, it's the damn writers and stuff, they are trying to hard to make the show appeal to the "average" person.

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I disagree, I think Tyrion could have successfully convinced both his father and the queen that Lancel would be a good choice for her. It'd still give a Lannister claim to Winterfell, after all. Also, Tyrion brings up Lancel and asks if he's well enough to wed earlier than that, shortly before they tell Tyrion he's to marry Sansa, so the notion is already planted. Perhaps his claim was more bravado than common sense, but I think his offer was genuine. No, Sansa didn't want Lancel either, but it was not unreasonable to expect her to slightly prefer Lancel to Tyrion.

Tyrion can't convince Tywin on anything. Tywin is the one that brought up Lancel with Kevan, who advised against it and as we have been told in every council with Tywin and Kevan, those two always script out their conversations and decide what they are actually gonna do before hand. It had all been decided long before Tyrion, Cersei, the Tyrells or anyone could get a word, as always. And they weren't lying, Lancel was not up to bedding her, thus making him useless.

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Exactly, that's why I don't think it's HBO causing the changes, it's the damn writers and stuff, they are trying to hard to make the show appeal to the "average" person.

which in my mind is the exact wrong decision to make. the attraction is that the grayness of the characters plus the political intrigue make this typically young male genre have a wider appeal

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Given that they have taken the heart and soul out of Sansa's character and character development this season and made Tyrion in to a completely good guy, the chance of HBO not portraying the marriage with Tyrion as the victim and Sansa as the bitch who doesn't see how uber lucky she is to be forced into a marriage against her will is fairly low.

Which is very sad as forced marriage affects many women in the world today and like Sansa thousands of them go along with it because they have no other choice due to cultural expectations or violent repercussions.

This is my fear as well. I had a huge feeling of doom when they took that scene of Sansa being beaten and turned it in to Tyrion charging in to play the hero and save her. My current guess is that he'll end up doing it in order to protect her somehow and she'll be ungrateful to him because she's to stupid to understand it.

I'm really curious why D&D feel the need to whitewash Tyrion so much. I find him much more fascinating as a grey character. He is capable of great kindness while also sharing his father's ruthlessness. I'd love to see some of that on the screen. Peter Dinklage is doing some great acting but I'm finding that Tyrion on the screen is rather boring.

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I think the writers are just taking the craven-ly way out.

(We get it...Littlefinger is a pimp. Give him a feathered hat and a cane and be done with it.)

:lmao:

I've been thinking that Tyrion will not kill Shae on the show. If he does it'll be by accident or by her own doing...She'll somehow be a casualty in the confrontation between Tyrion and Tywin.

Geez I hope you're wrong.

I can't see any reason for not going this route.

Unfortunately, I would have said the same for a multitude of plotlines until the season rolled out.

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