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David Selig

[Book Spoilers] The Whitewashing of Tyrion

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I disagree, I think Tyrion could have successfully convinced both his father and the queen that Lancel would be a good choice for her. It'd still give a Lannister claim to Winterfell, after all. Also, Tyrion brings up Lancel and asks if he's well enough to wed earlier than that, shortly before they tell Tyrion he's to marry Sansa, so the notion is already planted. Perhaps his claim was more bravado than common sense, but I think his offer was genuine. No, Sansa didn't want Lancel either, but it was not unreasonable to expect her to slightly prefer Lancel to Tyrion.

This is what Kevan told Tywin about Lancel's health (speaking in front of Tyrion, to convince him to go along):

“If you will not have the girl, we shall give her to one of your cousins,” said his father.

“Kevan, is Lancel strong enough to wed, do you think?”

Ser Kevan hesitated. “If we bring the girl to his bedside, he could say the words... but to

consummate, no... I would suggest one of the twins, but the Starks hold them both at Riverrun.

They have Genna’s boy Tion as well, else he might serve.”

If Kevan can be believed, the ceremony would have to take place at Lancel's bedside...

And this is how Tywin ends that particular conversation:

“You will marry Sansa Stark, Tyrion. And soon.”

This is the last Tyrion POV before the marriage, so AFAIK he didn't get other info on Lancel's health but what Kevan had told him.

Tyrion makes his offer after Cersei and Joffrey have already said the following to Sansa:

“Yes. You are a ward of the crown. The king stands in your father’s place, since your brother is

an attainted traitor. That means he has every right to dispose of your hand. You are to marry my

brother Tyrion.”

“I understand your reluctance. Cry if you must. In your place, I would likely rip my hair out.

He’s a loathsome little imp, no doubt of it, but marry him you shall.”

“You can’t make me.”

“Of course we can. You may come along quietly and say your vows as befits a lady, or you

may struggle and scream and make a spectacle for the stableboys to titter over, but you will end

up wedded and bedded all the same.”

“I am. I’m your father, and I can marry you to whoever I like. To anyone.

You’ll marry the pig boy if I say so, and bed down with him in the sty.”

Only after Joffrey said the last line, did Tyrion make his offer. This is Sansa's answer:

“I am a ward of the throne and my duty is to marry as the king commands.”

Sansa merely says she is obeying the commands that Cersei and Joffrey have just given her.

On the marriage altar, the guests are already waiting. No doubt, they have been told that they will witness the marriage of Tyrion, the Lannisters can hardly call it off at the last minute or say that the bridegroom has suddenly changed and they will have to go to Lancel's room instead. If Tyrion would truly have attempted to go for Lancel, his father would have intervened right away, I think. Don't forget that Tywin needs this marriage now, to forestall a Tyrell-Stark alliance. If he cannot get Sansa married, he won't hesitate to have her suffer a tragic accident that very night, IMO.

This is what Sansa thinks when she refuses to kneel for Tyrion:

Why should I spare his feelings, when no one cares about mine?

Going by this, Sansa does not consider Tyrion has been sparing her feelings (despite her polite words about him being kind), and if so I agree with her. Tyrion was way late with his attempt to talk Sansa into it; she was already forced into a marriage she didn't want, with brute measures. Tyrion chose to stick with his family and thus, "for reasons of state", not tell her until she was literally on her way to the altar. He ambushed her as much as the other Lannisters did.

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Come on. The book itself was already full of over-the-top Tyrion heroism. Like him leading a sortie (a dwarf with no combat experience, yet he saved the day when no one else in KL was badass enough and/or brave enough). So even if in the show he does something ludicrously brave, it will be fully within the spirit of the novel.

Tyrion has read a lot of books, and Jaime has talked to him about battle every since Jaime was old enough to be in them, remember when Tyrion thinks about Jaime explaining the battle high, and then Tyrion gets it while fighting. Tyrion has also been around his father, and a master-at-arms his whole life. So it's not crazy that he lead a group of men out of the city gate on horseback, to go attack the enemy. All they did was charge at who ever they could find, but your right that's stupid, Tyrion would never know how to do that....

And that wasn't Tyrion's first battle, are you forgetting the Battle at The Green Fork? Also, Tyrion had to help fight their way to the Eyrie, so he did have some experience, when you actually think about it.

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I admit that 20% of the hate I have for BookTyrion comes from the fact that he's author's pet. He's the show's pet too, but I can't replicate the same hatred of him in the show. Probably because he seems less self-absorbed and more genuinely charismatic (ShowTyrion doesn't seem to be putting on an act, he's just being his natural, charming self).

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Maybe GRRM told D&D how it will end and they want the marriage to be like this, so they can continue it in season 7 or 8, so they have something like a "white knight" moment with Sansa and Tyrion, for the non bookreaders

That's a possibility. If GRRM is planning to revisit the Sansa-Tyrion marriage in a later book, in another context where presumably Sansa may not be able to get out of it in the end, then the show will likely want to soften things to avoid what would be seen as a rather dark ending for Sansa. If Tyrion ends up as one of the big winners in the end, I can see the show wanting to portray him that bit more sympathetically.

I don't think the show will portray Sansa as being "ungrateful" or "bitchy" about the marriage though, the context of the marriage will likely be maintained (I doubt they would have Tyrion warn Sansa beforehand on the show, for example, as that change should have a rippling effect on the plot). Maybe they would have Tyrion stop short of telling Sansa to undress, that would soften him without making Sansa look bad. Or maybe they will even do it very close to the way it happened in the books - they can still soften other things about Tyrion without going overboard. While show Sansa is more naive in S2 than book Sansa was, HBO haven't gone out of their way to portray her less positive than ACOK did.

In any case, Tyrion killing Tywin was more than justified for me, even the way it was in the books (it was actually self-defense in addition to justice, in my view).

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That's a possibility. If GRRM is planning to revisit the Sansa-Tyrion marriage in a later book, in another context where presumably Sansa may not be able to get out of it in the end, then the show will likely want to soften things to avoid what would be seen as a rather dark ending for Sansa. If Tyrion ends up as one of the big winners in the end, I can see the show wanting to portray him that bit more sympathetically.

I don't think the show will portray Sansa as being "ungrateful" or "bitchy" about the marriage though, the context of the marriage will likely be maintained (I doubt they would have Tyrion warn Sansa beforehand on the show, for example, as that change should have a rippling effect on the plot). Maybe they would have Tyrion stop short of telling Sansa to undress, that would soften him without making Sansa look bad. Or maybe they will even do it very close to the way it happened in the books - they can still soften other things about Tyrion without going overboard. While show Sansa is more naive in S2 than book Sansa was, HBO haven't gone out of their way to portray her less positive than ACOK did.

In any case, Tyrion killing Tywin was more than justified for me, even the way it was in the books (it was actually self-defense in addition to justice, in my view).

Tyrion killing Tywin and Shae was justice in my view.....

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Tyrion has read a lot of books, and Jaime has talked to him about battle every since Jaime was old enough to be in them, remember when Tyrion thinks about Jaime explaining the battle high, and then Tyrion gets it while fighting. Tyrion has also been around his father, and a master-at-arms his whole life. So it's not crazy that he lead a group of men out of the city gate on horseback, to go attack the enemy. All they did was charge at who ever they could find, but your right that's stupid, Tyrion would never know how to do that....

And that wasn't Tyrion's first battle, are you forgetting the Battle at The Green Fork? Also, Tyrion had to help fight their way to the Eyrie, so he did have some experience, when you actually think about it.

Yet I still find it implausible that while he was so green, he did so well. And it's especially unnerving that during King's Landing's siege, Tyrion was the bravest of them all. He led the sortie because everyone else was too scared. A veritable Marty Stu he was at this point of the series.

So if that wasn't out of character for Tyrion, saving a puppy and an orphan from a burning whorehouse won't be, either.

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Of course not fool... I detest that HBO is making many characters more vanilla. Tyrion is such a scumbag, so smart, so lucky, so honest, so selfish, and so tormented and that's why I enjoy reading about him. On the show, he's a loveable little person. I hate that.

ummm ok, i was just asking a question, no need to get your panties in an uproar

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Oh, good point. Although, to make it really dramatic he should probably save both. Probably coming running out of the whorehouse holding Ros. That'd make it epic.

nonsense Tyrion will save burning orphan whore-puppies, named Ros.

It is known

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Yet I still find it implausible that while he was so green, he did so well. And it's especially unnerving that during King's Landing's siege, Tyrion was the bravest of them all. He led the sortie because everyone else was too scared. A veritable Marty Stu he was at this point of the series.

So if that wasn't out of character for Tyrion, saving a puppy an orphan from a burning whorehouse won't be, either.

Tyrion did not do it in any act of valor, he did it because he had to. He shamed other people into following him. The reason why nobody else would lead the sortie is because they had already been out there, they knew what it was like, Tyrion did not. So he was not the only one "brave enough" to go out there, he was just the only one willing to go, because he hadn't been before. Also, Tyrion was fighting on horseback, against men on foot, that's a huge advantage, his horse saved his ass a few times. Other times it was the men with him, and Podrick Payne that saved his ass, yet your trying to make it sound like he was Jaime freaking Lannister out there.

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Tyrion did not do it in any act of valor, he did it because he had to. He shamed other people into following him. The reason why nobody else would lead the sortie is because they had already been out there, they knew what it was like, Tyrion did not. So he was not the only one "brave enough" to go out there, he was just the only one willing to go, because he hadn't been before.

And suddenly Tyrion's brave leadership helped them find their courage again.

Also, Tyrion was fighting on horseback, against men on foot, that's a huge advantage, his horse saved his ass a few times. Other times it was the men with him, and Podrick Payne that saved his ass, yet your trying to make it sound like he was Jaime freaking Lannister out there.

Well, we simply must agree to disagree here, because my impression was exactly "he looks as if he was Jaime freaking Lannister".

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Is it really a possibility that the writers are making adjustments based on things they know happen in the future to characters but we don't? I guess it depends on how much GRRM decided to let them in on. Very weird thought that one day we could be pointing out the foreshadowing of future books in past television episodes.

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Is it really a possibility that the writers are making adjustments based on things they know happen in the future to characters but we don't? I guess it depends on how much GRRM decided to let them in on. Very weird thought that one day we could be pointing out the foreshadowing of future books in past television episodes.

I think they consult major changes with GRRM, and he vetoes those that would fubar the plot in the future.

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I think they consult major changes with GRRM, and he vetoes those that would fubar the plot in the future.

Yeah but if they ultimately want to make some big dumb change, GRRM unfortunately can't stop them, and he many times has cautioned them with the "butterfly effect", and he has pointed out a few major things they have done already, just from the first season. So I can only imagine what he will say and think about the second season.

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This is what Kevan told Tywin about Lancel's health (speaking in front of Tyrion, to convince him to go along): If Kevan can be believed, the ceremony would have to take place at Lancel's bedside... And this is how Tywin ends that particular conversation: This is the last Tyrion POV before the marriage, so AFAIK he didn't get other info on Lancel's health but what Kevan had told him. Tyrion makes his offer after Cersei and Joffrey have already said the following to Sansa: Only after Joffrey said the last line, did Tyrion make his offer. This is Sansa's answer: Sansa merely says she is obeying the commands that Cersei and Joffrey have just given her. On the marriage altar, the guests are already waiting. No doubt, they have been told that they will witness the marriage of Tyrion, the Lannisters can hardly call it off at the last minute or say that the bridegroom has suddenly changed and they will have to go to Lancel's room instead. If Tyrion would truly have attempted to go for Lancel, his father would have intervened right away, I think. Don't forget that Tywin needs this marriage now, to forestall a Tyrell-Stark alliance. If he cannot get Sansa married, he won't hesitate to have her suffer a tragic accident that very night, IMO. This is what Sansa thinks when she refuses to kneel for Tyrion: Going by this, Sansa does not consider Tyrion has been sparing her feelings (despite her polite words about him being kind), and if so I agree with her. Tyrion was way late with his attempt to talk Sansa into it; she was already forced into a marriage she didn't want, with brute measures. Tyrion chose to stick with his family and thus, "for reasons of state", not tell her until she was literally on her way to the altar. He ambushed her as much as the other Lannisters did.

I :agree: :agree:

WRT to Tyrion's conversation with his father, it's pretty clear that Tywin is manipulating Tyrion rather than forcing him. He'd get Winterfell and the hot girl, a couple of tempting prizes for a man who wants a lordship and home of his own. He has a reputation as well so his father would belive that Tyrion would have no problem forcing himself on Sansa. It worked too, Tyrion had a "queer feeling in his stomach" and thought of "pretty, sweet smelling Sansa Stark".

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I think they consult major changes with GRRM, and he vetoes those that would fubar the plot in the future.

GRRM doesn't have veto power at all. For example, Mago :

"

GRRM told the producers that Mago would have a larger role later on but they proceeded with killing him off."

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ummm ok, i was just asking a question, no need to get your panties in an uproar

I thought it was a rude question. It's not like I go around chastising people for having opinions.

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I admit that 20% of the hate I have for BookTyrion comes from the fact that he's author's pet. He's the show's pet too, but I can't replicate the same hatred of him in the show. Probably because he seems less self-absorbed and more genuinely charismatic (ShowTyrion doesn't seem to be putting on an act, he's just being his natural, charming self).

change that to 50% and I'm right with you.

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GRRM doesn't have veto power at all. For example, Mago :

"

GRRM told the producers that Mago would have a larger role later on but they proceeded with killing him off."

And I bet it's fixable simply by having someone else playing the part that he was supposed to play. It's not like the Dothraki warriors had their own distinctive personalities, anyway.

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And I bet it's fixable simply by having someone else playing the part that he was supposed to play. It's not like the Dothraki warriors had their own distinctive personalities, anyway.

It still shows quite clearly that D&D can go against GRRM's wishes if they want to, so no veto power. They could put aliens in the show and GRRM wouldn't be able to stop them from doing it.

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