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David Selig

[Book Spoilers] The Whitewashing of Tyrion

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It still shows quite clearly that D&D can go against GRRM's wishes if they want to, so no veto power. They could put aliens in the show and GRRM wouldn't be able to stop them from doing it.

I didn't claim that GRRM could veto anything and everything at his whim, simply that "he vetoes those changes that would fubar the plot in the future". There's a difference between changing a third plan character and changing the entire premise of the show. They'd certainly would write off Rickon the Pointless if only they could, for example.

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I didn't claim that GRRM could veto anything and everything at his whim, simply that "he

vetoes those changes that would fubar the plot in the future". There's a difference between changing a third plan character and changing the entire premise of the show. They'd certainly would write off Rickon the Pointless if only they could, for example.

I don't know... In interviews GRRM has made it clear that he did his best to warn them about some of their changes because of the massive "butterfly effect" to the future story, and yet the "all knowing" D&D went ahead with their changes.

So I would not put it past them one bit, to make huge plot altering changes, if they have not done so already, which is highly possible.

But with the Dothraki change of Mago getting killed, what was the damn point? GRRM told them he came back into the story, and yet they did it any way. Why couldn't they just pick a different Dothraki??? Why did they HAVE TO kill the one Dothraki GRRM said not to? It's pointless, they are just making dumb ass changes for change sake, and it's ridiculous.

And with the singer Marillion, there's the whole part about him being in the Eyrie when Sansa goes there, and Littlefinger puts the blame on him for Lysa's death, yet the show has him leave the Eyrie, and he ends up getting his freaking tongue cut out by Joffrey. Why? Why freaking change that? They could have given the part to some random singer, like in the book, but no. Now they are going to have to hire some random singer for the rest of Marillion's role. Unless they change that all together, which would be pretty dumb. They are just making changes for no reason, and that's what pisses people off, especially because when GRRM agreed to let them do the show, he said it was his wish that they stay as true to the books as possible. When he said "as possible", that means only change something when you have to, not just for change sake. What's worse is that D&D made it seem like they would stick to the books as best as possible, and that's why GRRM let them do it. They also said they are huge fans of the books, so I bet GRRM thought that would help them stay true to the books. Yet now they are just having a hay day with all the unnecessary changes.

For the record, I am not talking about changes made for budget reasons, or time reasons etc.. They have made a score of changes that have absolutely no point, other than just being different.

In my opinion, GRRM made a big mistake not having any power over the show. If he told them to run with it, and do what ever they wanted, that would be a different matter. Thats not the case though, when he agreed to let them do it, he said it was his wish for them to stay as true to the books as possible. When it comes to an adaptation, I think the same way as GRRM, if you can't stick to the source material, then make up your own story, you don't just take parts of the books, and then add in what you want, that's not an adaptation.

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I don't know... In interviews GRRM has made it clear that he did his best to warn them about some of their changes because of the massive "butterfly effect" to the future story, and yet the "all knowing" D&D went ahead with their changes. So I would not put it past them one bit, to make huge plot altering changes, if they have not done so already, which is highly possible. But with the Dothraki change of Mago getting killed, what was the damn point? GRRM told them he came back into the story, and yet they did it any way. Why couldn't they just pick a different Dothraki??? Why did they HAVE TO kill the one Dothraki GRRM said not to? It's pointless, they are just making dumb ass changes for change sake, and it's ridiculous. And with the singer Marillion, there's the whole part about him being in the Eyrie when Sansa goes there, and Littlefinger puts the blame on him for Lysa's death, yet the show has him leave the Eyrie, and he ends up getting his freaking tongue cut out by Joffrey. Why? Why freaking change that? They could have given the part to some random singer, like in the book, but no. Now they are going to have to hire some random singer for the rest of Marillion's role. Unless they change that all together, which would be pretty dumb. They are just making changes for no reason, and that's what pisses people off, especially because when GRRM agreed to let them do the show, he said it was his wish that they stay as true to the books as possible. When he said "as possible", that means only change something when you have to, not just for change sake. What's worse is that D&D made it seem like they would stick to the books as best as possible, and that's why GRRM let them do it. They also said they are huge fans of the books, so I bet GRRM thought that would help them stay true to the books. Yet now they are just having a hay day with all the unnecessary changes. For the record, I am not talking about changes made for budget reasons, or time reasons etc.. They have made a score of changes that have absolutely no point, other than just being different. In my opinion, GRRM made a big mistake not having any power over the show. If he told them to run with it, and do what ever they wanted, that would be a different matter. Thats not the case though, when he agreed to let them do it, he said it was his wish for them to stay as true to the books as possible. When it comes to an adaptation, I think the same way as GRRM, if you can't stick to the source material, then make up your own story, you don't just take parts of the books, and then add in what you want, that's not an adaptation.

:agree:

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They could put aliens in the show and GRRM wouldn't be able to stop them from doing it.

shhh dont give D&D any ideas!

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I don't know... In interviews GRRM has made it clear that he did his best to warn them about some of their changes because of the massive "butterfly effect" to the future story, and yet the "all knowing" D&D went ahead with their changes. So I would not put it past them one bit, to make huge plot altering changes, if they have not done so already, which is highly possible. But with the Dothraki change of Mago getting killed, what was the damn point? GRRM told them he came back into the story, and yet they did it any way. Why couldn't they just pick a different Dothraki??? Why did they HAVE TO kill the one Dothraki GRRM said not to? It's pointless, they are just making dumb ass changes for change sake, and it's ridiculous. And with the singer Marillion, there's the whole part about him being in the Eyrie when Sansa goes there, and Littlefinger puts the blame on him for Lysa's death, yet the show has him leave the Eyrie, and he ends up getting his freaking tongue cut out by Joffrey. Why? Why freaking change that? They could have given the part to some random singer, like in the book, but no. Now they are going to have to hire some random singer for the rest of Marillion's role. Unless they change that all together, which would be pretty dumb. They are just making changes for no reason, and that's what pisses people off, especially because when GRRM agreed to let them do the show, he said it was his wish that they stay as true to the books as possible. When he said "as possible", that means only change something when you have to, not just for change sake. What's worse is that D&D made it seem like they would stick to the books as best as possible, and that's why GRRM let them do it. They also said they are huge fans of the books, so I bet GRRM thought that would help them stay true to the books. Yet now they are just having a hay day with all the unnecessary changes. For the record, I am not talking about changes made for budget reasons, or time reasons etc.. They have made a score of changes that have absolutely no point, other than just being different. In my opinion, GRRM made a big mistake not having any power over the show. If he told them to run with it, and do what ever they wanted, that would be a different matter. Thats not the case though, when he agreed to let them do it, he said it was his wish for them to stay as true to the books as possible. When it comes to an adaptation, I think the same way as GRRM, if you can't stick to the source material, then make up your own story, you don't just take parts of the books, and then add in what you want, that's not an adaptation.

preach on brother

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In my opinion, GRRM made a big mistake not having any power over the show. If he told them to run with it, and do what ever they wanted, that would be a different matter. Thats not the case though, when he agreed to let them do it, he said it was his wish for them to stay as true to the books as possible. When it comes to an adaptation, I think the same way as GRRM, if you can't stick to the source material, then make up your own story, you don't just take parts of the books, and then add in what you want, that's not an adaptation.

Then the show wouldn't have been made, because this kind of power (to veto changes they don't like) is just not given to the writers of books which gets adapted for TV or cinema, except in some really special cases. It's just not done.

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IIRC it has been mentioned or hinted in interviews somewhere that the showrunners did talk with GRRM about future material; they may not know the entire plot or everything about the ending but I think they do know quite a bit more than us. They have to know enough to be aware what kind of adjustments they will have to make by killing off a character or by slightly (or not-so-slightly, like in Qarth) changing a plot point from the books.

In Mago's case, I suspect he is interchangeable with the others who left Drogo's khalasar and turned on Dany; just like Dany's bloodriders are pretty much interchangeable.

In Marillion's case, the reason they had him in the KL tongue-removing scene is maybe just for practical production-related reasons: they could give more work to the actor they hired, for example. And the same actor may well not be available anymore by the time S4 comes around, so they would have to recast Marillion or use another singer alltogether. As it stands, they can still do the latter or even use a mute Marillion (allthough it could hurt the plot if they don't manage to make tongueless Marillion every bit as unsympathetic as book Marillion was).

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Well we can say then that Dany will not return to Qarth in the next 2 books I suppose!

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IIRC it has been mentioned or hinted in interviews somewhere that the showrunners did talk with GRRM about future material; they may not know the entire plot or everything about the ending but I think they do know quite a bit more than us. They have to know enough to be aware what kind of adjustments they will have to make by killing off a character or by slightly (or not-so-slightly, like in Qarth) changing a plot point from the books.

In Mago's case, I suspect he is interchangeable with the others who left Drogo's khalasar and turned on Dany; just like Dany's bloodriders are pretty much interchangeable.

In Marillion's case, the reason they had him in the KL tongue-removing scene is maybe just for practical production-related reasons: they could give more work to the actor they hired, for example. And the same actor may well not be available anymore by the time S4 comes around, so they would have to recast Marillion or use another singer alltogether. As it stands, they can still do the latter or even use a mute Marillion (allthough it could hurt the plot if they don't manage to make tongueless Marillion every bit as unsympathetic as book Marillion was).

You said it yourself, Mago is most likely interchangeable, with that being the case, then why not kill a different Bloodrider, why kill the one GRRM specifically said not to? Just to be different is all I can think of.

And if the actor for Marillion was not available for a future role, then they could have chosen not to cast him. There are thousands of talented actors that would have been more than willing to come back, down the road. It's not like they have to choose that one actor.

So those kinds of things I still don't agree with.

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You said it yourself, Mago is most likely interchangeable, with that being the case, then why not kill a different Bloodrider, why kill the one GRRM specifically said not to? Just to be different is all I can think of. And if the actor for Marillion was not available for a future role, then they could have chosen not to cast him. There are thousands of talented actors that would have been more than willing to come back, down the road. It's not like they have to choose that one actor. So those kinds of things I still don't agree with.

They needed someone for the scene with Joffrey - instead of hiring yet another actor (a different bard, then), then gave more work the actor they had already hired. This may be as much a budget thing as anything - or maybe they liked working with that particular actor (something which a book writer doesn't have to take into account).

As for why they killed Mago, I do not know their reasons but I do not think they did it willy-nilly just to be different. Maybe they felt he was the only Dothraki actor, or the only character recognisable enough for the TV audience, that could work with the scene?

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Probably the actor wouldn't agree for a 3 -4 or even 5 year pause in the show

Tyrion needs to get a bit more dark as i see him

It's not just how you see him, we have all been saying the same things about Tyrion this whole thread. They have made him a "good guy" only, when in the books he was a much more interesting grey character, like most characters in the books. Even though he was a grey character in the books, I would still call him an overall "good guy". That's what I don't get, D&D have read the books, and they claim to love the books, so they should know its the grey characters that make it so good. So why make a whitewashed version of Tyrion? They know that's no different from almost every other show, and they know that's part of what separates GRRM's books from your typical fantasy.... To say that I don't get it is a huge understatement.

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I hated Tyrion when I first read the books. What has Tyrion done on the show that is detestable? He has some vices, but certainly nothing that makes the watcher waiver at all about whether or not he is a good guy. He like whores? Big deal, that can be put off as him being a dwarf and maybe not being able to get a woman.

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Hopefully they are doing with him what they have done with other character, which seems to be highlight/emphasize what they are now so that we see the character change spiral in whichever direction they are going, it will standout as a change in character. Hopefully they start adding in the grey and even black as the story goes along with Tyrion. It would be kind of dissapointing if he ends up being the good guy throughout.

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Hopefully they are doing with him what they have done with other character, which seems to be highlight/emphasize what they are now so that we see the character change spiral in whichever direction they are going, it will standout as a change in character. Hopefully they start adding in the grey and even black as the story goes along with Tyrion. It would be kind of dissapointing if he ends up being the good guy throughout.

This is what I think. Dany and Jon are making more mistakes now so that they seem more human later, rather than just seeming stupid. Similarly, Tyrion is in for a decline, but I think the way he's been presented in the show means that viewers are more likely to stick with him through that phase.

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I think the writers had to paint Tyrion as a good guy in order to make his fall from grace so much more spectacular. Much in the same way they have made Jaime a complete a-holer, slaying kin and the such, so that he can be reborn as a decent bloke. In the books there is more time to paint in the grey, but on screen it works better to have Jaime and Tyrion at opposite ends of the good guy spectrum. My biggest irk with the portrayal of Tyrion this season is that they haven't shown all his war preparations, particularly the chain. How hard would have it been to thrown in a random scene where he visits the blacksmith and requests all attention go to making chain. Cersei could then give him grief for it and he could put her in her place about how some has to plan for the defence of the city. It would have given non-readers a better understanding of how important his efforts are in the defence of KL.

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I expect them to darken Tyrion at least a bit in the 3rd and 4th season. If nothing else, there will be the whole doublehomicide... It fits so well too, since he has lost much of his power, been relieved of his glory in the BotB, and... the nasty scarring? I don't expect them to make him totally into bookTyrion, but for me - I don't really care. Plus, now, I can't really imagine TV-Tyrion slapping Shae and such anyway.

They (D&D) also talked about stretching out Aryas development more, so it seems guaranteed we'll see more darkening there too in future seasons.

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I think the writers had to paint Tyrion as a good guy in order to make his fall from grace so much more spectacular.

I think you give the writers too much credit.

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