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Patchface12

[Book Spoilers] Talissa/Jeyne

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there are no walders, no edmure, no injury to confine them to prolongued interction. rob the oathbreaker has my sympathy with the freys so far. bolton loves his fat frey wife and lord tywin actually has the real ary to promise to ramsey in the show. with so much ambiguity the red wedding is shaping up as less a cunning betrayal and more a clever power grab

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I haven't given up on her being a Westerling, maybe just not named 'Jeyne' because of Jeyne Poole later on.

I think the looks she's exchanged with Roose on numerous occasions are going to pay off in a big way.. and it's going to be a HUGE reveal, around the same time the Bastard show up in WF. At this ponit we'll learn that the Boltons are teaming up with the Lans, which will set us up major developments in season 3.

She's really laying it on thick with her Volantis story. If her gramma is Maggy the Frog, from the East, she would know the right details about Vol. to make up a story like this.

And joking/not joking awhile back - 'yeah, I'm a spy for the Lannisters. See, here I am sending/not sending this letter... most likely the letter Arya picked up from Tywin.'

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Anyway I think last nights scene with Talissa giving her back story was very well done. I think they have tried to humanise her character with good morals so Robb has something to be attracted to morally. She's a good woman and Robb see's that. I think that is very well done but the execution up until that scene has been woeful and Robb himself has been dire (wolf). "I don't want to marry the Frey girl" stinks of being a petulant little teenager. I get that he IS a teenager or there abouts but he shouldn't be a petulant complaining little shit. But Talissa's story not only tells us that she's a good woman and like Robb and Ned she doesn't care about gold, glory and all the other noble nonsense but it also gives us a nice little insight into Volantis.

And this does little to distinguish Talisa's overall world view from Catelyn's, or the other female who has been that person to ask "probing" questions as to exactly what Robb's intentions are long term. Ultimately, placing Talisa and Catelyn side by side presents two characters whose motivations, as far as we know, are more similar than opposing.

The difference is this theme or "idea" that listening to Catelyn would have weakened him in some way. But isn't the end result the same for having listened to Talisa? Sure we can blame Catelyn for deliberately releasing Jaime, even though we understand the circumstances and may even agree with the act. Can the same be said of Robb's choice to consummate his feelings for Talisa physically?

I guess what I'm asking is, at what point does it become Robb's responsibility to acknowledge accountability for his choices and less everyone else's fault? Talisa is tantalizing, but one could certainly muster the ability to decline if one were set on it. Yes Catelyn is strong, loyal, and duty bound, but does that mean she, as a woman, should be left to handle Robb's war camp in his absence? Certainly we can understand that grief will make you come undone, but wasn't it Robb who allowed Theon the opportunity to act on Winterfell, and Catelyn (and by extension, Ned) who advised against it?

Regardless of who Talisa is or is not, BookRobb and HBORobb are responsible for actions and consequences. The only character I've noticed willing to suffer the requisite punishment for any action is Catelyn, book or HBO version.

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Remember though, Robb is not in trouble for having sex.. he is in trouble for marrying the first girl he has sex with and thus breaking a marriage contract.

Up to this point, on the show, he hasn't actually broken the pact, aside from admitting that he doesn't want to go through with it. I'll be interested in seeing how the rest of this plays out.

I appreciate the Robb/Talisa story because we all know what's going to happen, we don't know the details. There are some awful moments of corniness, but I'm glad they are at least keeping me guessing.

Is Robb going to be stupid and rebellious and just say 'screw the Freys' ? So far it looks this way.

In the book, I'd had the impression he was just trying to be honorable, but since it happens off-page we only know how he explained it to his mom. On the other hand, most guys tend to sugarcoat things for their moms - so that wouldn't surprise me either.

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I don't think any of Robb or Talissa's scenes contain Oscar winning screen-writing, but I don't think they're nearly as corny/sappy as some other people make out

True there's some banter between them, but its doesn't grate my nerves like Kvothe and Denna did after a while in the Kingkiller Chronicles.

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I don't think any of Robb or Talissa's scenes contain Oscar winning screen-writing, but I don't think they're nearly as corny/sappy as some other people make out True there's some banter between them, but its doesn't grate my nerves like Kvothe and Denna did after a while in the Kingkiller Chronicles.

Thank you. The worst I could say about Talisa/Robb is that it's a bit telegraphed, but they do have some chemistry together and, well, the Star Wars prequels this is not.

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(Regarding supposedly non-British accents in Essos, I'll raise you Qarth (The Spice King??) and second it with Illyrio Mopatis.)

Fair point, but the Spice King's accent (as well as Varys, I've actually forgotten what Illyrio sounded like) always struck me as having a certain foreign sound that no Westerosi characters have had. Like, I feel like the Westerosi characters (and Talisa) more or less sound like real British voices whereas the Spice King and Varys don't so much. But that's getting pretty subjective

As an aside, I noticed that on pretty much every non-book reader discussion I've seen there seemed to be a general consensus that Talisa is really suspicious. So I don't think we book readers are just projecting our prior knowledge here.

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Jeyne is a nobody in the books. She is only important because she is the lass whom the stupid Robb for whom the stupid Robb decides to sacrifice everything, for a minor point of honor. And he doesn't even know what he's done until it's too late.

So it doesn't matter whether Talisa is Jeyne or not.

The only important question is, Is Talisa an agent of the Lannisters? Now that is interesting. And it will make the Red Wedding ever so much more interesting and delicious. Jeyne does not, cannot, betray Robb. But Talisa can. But will the HBO writers fulfill our hopes?!

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Wow some of you are making a huge deal about this. Why does it matter if the girl is Jeyne or Talisa. The plot could still by and large be the same. Either she is an inserted spy or she loves Robb.

She will still get pregnant and Robb will feel "honor bound" to marry her. What's unwritten in the book is that Robb was probably very much in love with the girl which had more to do with him getting hitched. He's the King of the North and he'll have the women he wants.

There are still two options that basically get us to the same place.

1) Talisa might get pregnant carry Robbs baby and escape with Brynden Tulley.

2) Tywin has something over her, forcing her to seduce Robb and weaken his alliances. She may even come to love Robb but ultimately was planted as a spy.

I don't think the Jeyne's mother is critical, the writers know more than us.

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If I leave England to search for China and head out across the Atlantic and discover America and then head out across the Pacific and reach China vs. if I travel across Europe and get to China, I've reached the same place, but is it the same story? No. The details of the journey ARE the journey, when you change them, you change the story. I understand that these changes don't bother some people, but to pretend that it is the same story does not make sense to me. It is not the same story, it is a different one. Similar, perhaps, depending on your point of view. But it is not the same.

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It is not the same story, it is a different one. Similar, perhaps, depending on your point of view. But it is not the same.

This doesn't bother me in the least. I enjoy most of the differences and I like to be kept on my toes. I've always been like this.. my brother got really bent out of shape over certain aspects of the LOTR adaptation, but to me it was just an awesome movie.

I don't think the Jeyne's mother is critical, the writers know more than us.
j

she's not critical, but certainly interesting. Jeyne tells Cat her mother was making her a fertility shake; Mrs. Westerling tells someone else later (Jaime maybe?) that it was moontea. Who is lying to whom? This is kind of a soap-operaish plot point and seems like it could make good TV.. if the writers choose to explore it. But there is so much ground to cover, so I won't really miss it.

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If I leave England to search for China and head out across the Atlantic and discover America and then head out across the Pacific and reach China vs. if I travel across Europe and get to China, I've reached the same place, but is it the same story? No. The details of the journey ARE the journey, when you change them, you change the story. I understand that these changes don't bother some people, but to pretend that it is the same story does not make sense to me. It is not the same story, it is a different one. Similar, perhaps, depending on your point of view. But it is not the same.

True, but this story might actually end up being a superior story. The Jeyne story never resonated with me in the book. Most of us readers would change a few things with GRRMs story, and if HBO thinks they can give it a more compelling twist without destroying the story I'm open to it.

So while it may not be the same, we get to the same place with perhaps an even more scenic route.(Ayra/Tywin)

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If I leave England to search for China and head out across the Atlantic and discover America and then head out across the Pacific and reach China vs. if I travel across Europe and get to China, I've reached the same place, but is it the same story? No. The details of the journey ARE the journey, when you change them, you change the story. I understand that these changes don't bother some people, but to pretend that it is the same story does not make sense to me. It is not the same story, it is a different one. Similar, perhaps, depending on your point of view. But it is not the same.

OK, it's different. Which isn't the same as "worse". You defend it as if in the book we got a good story of Robb's downfall. We didn't: he went to Westerlands, and the next time we see him, he had already committed political suicide. In yours truly's opinion it was the worst written subplot of the series.

That's why I don't mind the changes one bit.

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I personally think the original story was better, but in this situation, I'm not addressing people who are saying they like the tv story better, I'm addressing those who say that it doesn't make a difference.

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The thing that really makes a difference is getting more of Robb's perspective, instead of only Catlyn's. When everything was filtered through Cat's POV, there was much more hearsay. GRRM for whatever reason felt like Cat's perspective/inner monologue was more interesting than Robb's, whereas Robb seems much better as a TV protagonist, where you can't hear his thoughts but you can see the soap opera unfolding around him.

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The thing that really makes a difference is getting more of Robb's perspective, instead of only Catlyn's. When everything was filtered through Cat's POV, there was much more hearsay. GRRM for whatever reason felt like Cat's perspective/inner monologue was more interesting than Robb's, whereas Robb seems much better as a TV protagonist, where you can't hear his thoughts but you can see the soap opera unfolding around him.

It was strange in the books to read Robb's story in the West play off-page. Still even though a book can be infinite pages in principle, the author (and editor) would cut it off for practical reasons, and somethings have to left out. So when HBO filled in a story (probably a different one--although they could link up) that was infotaining. Why posters think this will dramatically (in both senses) alter the main story points to follow, I don't know. I can see many ways to rejoin the book story line.

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If I leave England to search for China and head out across the Atlantic and discover America and then head out across the Pacific and reach China vs. if I travel across Europe and get to China, I've reached the same place, but is it the same story? No. The details of the journey ARE the journey, when you change them, you change the story. I understand that these changes don't bother some people, but to pretend that it is the same story does not make sense to me. It is not the same story, it is a different one. Similar, perhaps, depending on your point of view. But it is not the same.

for me at least, the problem arises every time the R/T story comes on screen, I am thinking to myself, this relationship makes no sense, talisa's actions make no sense and that takes away from enjoying the show. Now I freely admit that part of it comes from seeing the difference with the books (that is unavoidable for me at least), but also it comes from the show itself and how the show itself does not make sense with my perceptions of the workd that the show has created.

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Agreed - especially on 'infotainment.'

In either medium, it just all comes down to writers making choices. What makes the best story, the best pacing, builds the most tension, the best way to reveal/conceal information, etc. Cat has a more interesting perspective on other characters and events, which makes her a better choice for a POV in the book; whereas Robb fills a certain teen heartthrob/romance quota for a TV show and is thus deserving of more screen time.

And i think GRRM has a healthier perspective on his own work than most fans to. He doesn't see it as some masterpiece not to be meddled with. He's often mentioned in interviews, yeah, I should have made the kids older, or yeah, this POV would probably have been a better choice than that other POV. I imagine he enjoys watching the show unfold as much of any of us, if not moreso. He seems to have a great sense of humor about all of it.

It is starting to look like Talisa is falling for Robb. She was supposed to spy on him, but now she knows the real Robb Stark. She will tell him this at some crucial point, and he'll be all, dammit, you're so hot... screw the Freys, let's get married.

That seems pretty close to what happened in the books.. only certain details are added or changed. It's very 'romantic comedy' and not terribly original (or funny), but it is at least well acted, and works for a TV show.

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Wow some of you are making a huge deal about this. Why does it matter if the girl is Jeyne or Talisa. The plot could still by and large be the same. Either she is an inserted spy or she loves Robb.

She will still get pregnant and Robb will feel "honor bound" to marry her. What's unwritten in the book is that Robb was probably very much in love with the girl which had more to do with him getting hitched. He's the King of the North and he'll have the women he wants.

There are still two options that basically get us to the same place.

1) Talisa might get pregnant carry Robbs baby and escape with Brynden Tulley.

2) Tywin has something over her, forcing her to seduce Robb and weaken his alliances. She may even come to love Robb but ultimately was planted as a spy.

I don't think the Jeyne's mother is critical, the writers know more than us.

Exactly. Like another poster said, "he doesn't get in trouble for having sex..." Think of all of the "field mistresses" that the lords keep. She either gets pregnant or Robb marries her, or both.

I think she IS from Volantis, but has some Lannister/Westerling connections, and was/is spying for Tywin. I do think she has real feelings for Robb, though, which adds to her angst.

I'm not sure about her relationship with Roose. Some posters think that she is in cahoots with him, but I think that Roose thinks that she is bad for Robb, and the eventual marriage/pregnancy is the last straw for him. When she came into the tent in ep8, Roose looked at her like she was some sort of insect.

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