[Book spoilers] They ruined Robb Stark

[ARYa_Nym]

I don't see why Book Robb had to marry Jeyne.

Barbrey Ryswell was still able to be married after Brandon dishonored her for example. There are examples of non-virgins still being able to advance themselves by marriage like Lysa and Cersei.

I could see it more if Jeyne was pregnant but even then Robb could still get one of his bannermen to marry her in his place.

[mcb]

The Westerlings were far above peasant with Swords.

Right. Like I said, they also had titles.

Robb falling in love and breaking a pact and losing a huge proportion of his bannermen because of his personal desires, when he has left is sisters to be abused in KL because he said he has to set aside his personal desire to free them in favour of keeping his Bannermen sweet makes him rather than a tragic young man who felt the pressure of honoring a noble girl he had deflowered in a moment of illness and sorrow over Bran and Rickon, in to a self indulgent hypocrite and certainly not up to the duties and personal sacrifices required of a High Lord or King.

First, please use this "." punctuation mark more often than once a paragraph, it was hard to read. Second: marrying a girl he fell in love with and marrying a girl he deflowered in a moment of weakness make him exactly the same. A monumental, self-destructive idiot. It wasn't even "honorable", considering that he broke his oath to the Freys after the Freys delivered their part of the bargain.

The sex itself, the reason, mechanics, positions, people and toys involved - all of it was irrelevant. Doesn't matter whether he fell in love with Talisa, had a moment of weakness with Jeyne, or had a drunken one-night stand with Greatjon Umber. The fact that after the coitus he decided "we have to get married now and piss on my royal word" - that was the problem. A man who treated his promise that way indeed showed to be not up to the task thrust upon him. And you think the show "ruined" it simply because now we aren't sure whether the girl is of aristocratic pedigree?

[fede989]

I think that if the relationship between Robb and Talisa had been better written, and if the actors had more chemistry, this discussion wouldn't exist. The idea behind all of it is fair enough, maybe even more sensible that in the books. It just been very poorly delivered.

By the way, I don't think they are going to get marry this season, and there's something that still tells me she might be Jayne.

[Reposado]

. I don't see much difference between falling into a woman's arms who has shown you compassion out of grief, and falling into her arms through a bond of friendship and mutual respect developed over several weeks of observing her and conversing with her and coming to love her character.

there isn't much difference if you put it like that. the difference is in how he arrived at both situations. in the first, he was thrust into a place where weakness prevailed. in the second, he actively pursued the situation for weeks. he observed her character and conversed with her, learning her qualities only because he courted temptation.

[birdsong66]

I don't see why Book Robb had to marry Jeyne.

Barbrey Ryswell was still able to be married after Brandon dishonored her for example. There are examples of non-virgins still being able to advance themselves by marriage like Lysa and Cersei.

I could see it more if Jeyne was pregnant but even then Robb could still get one of his bannermen to marry her in his place.

Robb doesn't have to marry Jeyne. It is his own sense of honor that determines that as the honorable course.

Lysa was married off to JA because the rebellion needed Hoster's support, army, etc., and the only way to get it was to marry one daughter to a Stark and the other to an Aryn. Lysa's maidenhood had little to do with it other than Jon Aryn was the only one willing to make the "sacrifice" of marrying a deflowered highborn girl.

Outside of immediate Lannister family members, no one knew Cercei was not a virgin.

In any case, I think that Talisa made it clear that she does not subject herself to the accepted customs of Westerosi maidens, and thus her deflowering, if that is what happened, is not the monumental action that Robb should think it is requiring that he break vows, and marry her.

[mcb]

I think that if the relationship between Robb and Talisa had been better written, and if the actors had more chemistry, this discussion wouldn't exist.

Of course it would, by the right of "they changed it, now it sucks". Every single change to the plot is contested.

[Lord Over]

I didn't see Talisa as being a virgin, she seemed very experienced.

[SerMixalot]

I don't see why Book Robb had to marry Jeyne. Barbrey Ryswell was still able to be married after Brandon dishonored her for example. There are examples of non-virgins still being able to advance themselves by marriage like Lysa and Cersei. I could see it more if Jeyne was pregnant but even then Robb could still get one of his bannermen to marry her in his place.

i think robb is foreshadowed by the revelation by cat that her sister was not a virgin when she married jon arryn (Presumably by LF). Cat shows disgust at her father for selling Lysa for spears and swords because Lysa was somehow lessened by not being a virgin

[Clariana]

I don't understand why we should consider Robb a virgin either... In the series at least. Theon was boinking Ros... Jon had the opportunity... Would it be far fetched to suggest Robb was involved? I don't think so.

As for Robb's virginity being an issue I'd agree with all those above that it is not at all. After all Walder Frey has sired almost as many children outside marriage as inside it and does nothing to hide it, au contraire...

As for the series plot... Is it still possible that Talisa is Jayne?

Perhaps they decide to marry because they are personally compatible which would be a very large challenge to the practices of the time and would reflect well on Robb...

[ARYa_Nym]

Robb doesn't have to marry Jeyne. It is his own sense of honor that determines that as the honorable course. Lysa was married off to JA because the rebellion needed Hoster's support, army, etc., and the only way to get it was to marry one daughter to a Stark and the other to an Aryn. Lysa's maidenhood had little to do with it other than Jon Aryn was the only one willing to make the "sacrifice" of marrying a deflowered highborn girl. Outside of immediate Lannister family members, no one knew Cercei was not a virgin. In any case, I think that Talisa made it clear that she does not subject herself to the accepted customs of Westerosi maidens, and thus her deflowering, if that is what happened, is not the monumental action that Robb should think it is requiring that he break vows, and marry her.

I think both TV and Book Robb put Jeyne/Talisa first. TV Robb put Talisa first for love and Book Robb saw Jeyne's honor as more important than the honor of his house or the honor of upholding his agreement with House Frey.

[Giskard Reventlov]

Robb thinks Talisa is a lady, and the Westerlings in the books are little more than peasants with titles, a run-down castle and few swords. The two characters' standings aren't that much different. Jeyne wasn't Robb's captive: when the Crag capitulated, Jeyne certainly wasn't a part of the agreement. She quite voluntarily decided to nurse him (Robb certainly had his own medical staff more than capable to wipe his forehead and empty his chamber pot). Again, not that big a difference. And he certainly didn't have to marry Jeyne. True, he somewhat sullied her honor, but screwing her figuratively (after doing the same literally) was not only sounder politically, it was also more honorable option that marrying Jeyne and thus breaking his vow and screwing all his loyal vassals in one moronic move. Robb wasn't his own person, he didn't for her honor's sake sacrifice his own honor, he sacrificed the honor of House Stark and his entire kingdom. A single most suicidally stupid play in the books, trumping Ned's poor excuse for a coup and Tywin's taunting the man with a crossbow aimed at his stomach. So no, Book Robb's foolishness wasn't by any measure better, more justified, more logical, more honorable or more understandable.

Westerlings are FAR more than peasants with swords. They are one of the oldest families descending from the First Men.

As I said, in medieval settings of Westeros it means a world of difference. Talissa is almost nothing according to their standards.

So, he did have to marry Jane much , much more than some camp-follower from Volantis who might or might not be what she says she is. We are talking abot the world where social rank s everything.

So his act in the books are more understandable and logical and justified. I don't know about honorable though. He did have obligations to Freys.

Yes, he could've decided not to marry Jane but that would be scandal of sort and both of them would be shamed.

If he chose not to marry Talisa no one would notice because no one IS noticing her because she is nobody.

[SerMixalot]

BTW, from what I remember of the preseason show, they have a clip of Robb saying I Love Her, that would obvioiusly have to be Talisa at this point

[Clariana]

If he chose not to marry Talisa no one would notice because no one IS noticing her because she is nobody.

Apart from Roose who is scowling at her at the beginning of almost every scene, probably because he thinks she is no-one and Robb is wasting his time with her...

[Morvran]

Just replying to the OP, I don't think the series has ruined Robb at all. If anything, it has enhanced the character somewhat.

He has broken his vow in the show, just as in the book. But we actually get to SEE why (whether you actually like the 'why' is an entirely different topic). We get more of Robb in the series than in the book, and that will pay off the closer we get to the RW.

[sagaz]

I didn't have a problem with them showing his romance with Jeyne on-screen rather than off. But that isn't what they've done, now is it. They made up a totally different story instead, and it unfortunately, it just. plain. sucks even when ignoring the books. Not only that, but I would go so far as to say that it goes completely against Robb's character. Let's summarize here. Book-Robb is a boy of 15 (full of raging hormones); he took an injury at the Crag; he heard of his brothers's deaths and is grieving. During all that he is "comforted" by a woman in a moment of understandable weakness. After that happens, he feels honour-bound to marry her. Book-Robb is the son of Ned Stark, and just like Ned, he takes oaths and hononour seriously.

Well, I think is more interesting in the show that he actually love the girl. This is a change I favor.

He would have never deliberately broken his vow to the Freys like that, and when it does happen, he feels stupid and terrible and tries his hardest to make amends.

No, It's better. I think it picture him being a child in a more "powerful" way. I didn't find anything remarkable in being sad and have sex with the next girl around and feeling honour bound.

TV-Robb: is a man grown (I assume he's supposed to be 18-20?); he is not injured; he has not learned of Bran and Rickon's deaths and is not grieving. He's not in any sort of particular trouble. He even had his mother around to remind him of his duty and his oath to the Freys. Yet he's palling around with some sexy wench and clearly states he doesn't want to marry the Frey girl.

It's understandable and he explains it very clearly. when Catelyn made that promise he was time pressed. Thinking from now it doesn't matter. And the scene where Robb/Talissa were discussing this It's very good depicting her interest and how upset she was when they were interrupted, like two people in the limb only seeing and hearing each other. Very good acting by Oona Chaplin

He deliberately breaks his vow and doesn't even have second thoughts about it. What made Robb sympathetic was because he was so much like Ned, and took his oath and his honour so seriously, and he was young and naive, and he actually married Jeyne because of his Ned-like honour as a Stark.

eeerr...no, because he's in love and the only thing separating him from this girl is the promise to the Frey's. This make his flaw more sympathetic to me, a guy in love vs. a young man with a moment of weakness. I don't need the guilt.

There is none, and absolutely none of that in his story with Talissa. Not only is the story contrary to the spirit of the novel, but even judged by its own merit as TV, it's bad. It's a clichéd Hollywood romance with little believability to it. And it takes away a lot of the tragedy of the Red Wedding since Robb pretty much has it coming. Personally the Red Wedding made me upset because of Catelyn's suffering (losing her "last" son) and death more than Robb's death, but by giving more attention to Robb, the TV series could have changed that. Well, so much for that... :(

I absolutely cannot agree with you. I don't know what you think is a good romance, really. But this is something this tv show is constructing since the episode where she cuts the leg and he hold the head of the man injured. It isn't out of nowhere. And the acting of Richard Madden in this episode was superb. Two faces: the one when she enters the room and start talking...that "almost" smile of a man totally pleased and infatuated (well, he played Romeo, he must know); and the other, when he's realizing that he doesn't want to marry the frey girl and the way he blurted it. It was good acting as you can get, and I really enjoyed the scene. :bowdown:

(I think I became a fan of Madden's acting and will be following his career...)

Coming back to the books, I think this change makes RW more tragic and changes the point of the mistake. The mistake is not Robb entangled with Jeyne, the mistake is the promise to the Freys (something that Robb actually didn't do!!).

edit: clarification

[Envie]

I'm going to confess I did not read all 7 pages of this raging debate. I'm late to the party but just wanted to support Morrigan's efforts in defending this post.

There are a lot of very passionate people in this community and everyone has their personal favorites in the books as well as the series. Many like to compare / contrast the two while others (called "Book Purists" by some) seem to get really hung up on little details that are either left out, changed or added in ways the book never did that they disagree with or hate.

I don't see Morrigan's post as that at all. I'm willing to say that the Robb Stark story, for lack of more detail in Clash of Kings, was left far too wide open for vast changes and liberties the producers took with that opportunity and ran with it. Whether you agree with the direction they took it or not, I don't think anyone can argue with the point that its much different than most other plot lines in the series and has had a lot more changes. Here's the bottom line though, I can't figure out at all why they felt the changes they've made to the Robb / Jeyne story were necessary in this case.

Sure, there are budget and filming reasons to drop characters that may not be essential to propelling the plot at this time in the series such as the Reeds, or many of the side characters in Arya's Harrenhal adventures (Weese for example). There are also some stated reasons for changing characters names (as with Asha / Yara). There are also valid reasons for adding characters such as Ros, who essentially takes the place of Alayaya and ends up being quite a useful exposition tool throughout the first two seasons.

But with Jeyne Westerling... I cannot for the life of me figure out why they not only have changed her name, her family heritage/backstory, but they've totally changed her motivations as well as the plot for how she and Robb Stark came to marry and ultimately betray the Frey agreement which was really really important and stressed again and again in the book as a huge turning point in the book and led to the Red Wedding. After watching all the episodes thus far up to Robb's love scene with "Talisa"... I am just scratching my head in confusion over how lame it seems to be playing out. Not just their awkward acting (which is entirely contrived since of course these scenes were never in the book) but the entire flow of the story seems disjointed and off kilter from whatever was implied and revealed in the books. The facts, as Morrigan posted in the OP, are completely skewed.

I like the actor they chose for Robb Stark. I felt they were going in a great direction with his character portrayal in Season 1, something we couldn't identify with as easily from the books. You end up liking the heroic young wolf of the north a lot more. I can't figure out why they felt his 'honor' needed destroyed by porking this Volantis chick (for lack of a better word) who is clearly not much like Jeyne Westerling AT ALL... not in the physical way she was described, nor in the way she acts / behaves around Robb. In the books she was supposedly quite shy, almost painfully so, which Catelyn remarked about several times. One of the best lines of the books was that she was "not worth losing a kingdom over" or something similar in regards to Robb's decision to betray the Frey agreement in choosing to marry Jeyne for 'honor'... which he doesn't do in the series AT ALL.

I agree with someone else's assessment a few pages back that one of the beauties of the book was that pretty much all the characters had some gray area that couldn't be attributed to good or bad... and some areas that seemed like a good call but ended up being just selfish motivations that end up getting them into trouble. The Jeyne Westerling story for Robb was his huge gray area, his one big mistake after doing so well in battle... and for them to make it a somewhat less meaningful 'fling' like they have in the series really does diminish the overall importance of this significant turning point in the war. As we all know - this key critical moment caused his entire campaign to fall apart from here on out. Why diminish that significance with making Jeyne Westerling some 'unknown' woman he decides to bump uglies with on the floor? At least they gave Stannis the dignity of porking Melisandre on the battle plan table! Ugh. I really don't understand some of these gratuitous sex scenes other than yes, the simple need for a sex component in an HBO series. These could have been done much differently and still been great sex and in line with the book which had plenty of great and even gratuitous sex in it.

So yes, in ending my essay, I agree with Morrigan.

Nitpick all you like about whether or not Robb married Jeyne for 'honor' and was like Ned Stark or just another selfish bastard like everyone else in the books all you like - that's subject to personal opinion on reading the books for yourself. But you cannot argue they changed the Jeyne Westerling story so drastically it barely resembles anything at all from the book. Love or hate those changes...there they are. How will this change the rest of Robb's story? I don't know yet. But my opinion is that they've already lessened it a great deal. I look forward to watching it play out, nonetheless. Overall I love the series. I don't love the Jeyne Westerling story at all even though I think Oona Chaplin is a very sexy actress and a decent actor, my opinion again, is that she was mis-cast in the role of Jeyne Westerling and would have made a much better Shae or someone else honestly.

[mcb]

Westerlings are FAR more than peasants with swords. They are one of the oldest families descending from the First Men.

As I said, in medieval settings of Westeros it means a world of difference. Talissa is almost nothing according to their standards.

So, he did have to marry Jane much , much more than some camp-follower from Volantis who might or might not be what she says she is. We are talking abot the world where social rank s everything.

No, social rank most certainly is not everything. The Westerlings are an old house, true, but at the same time insignificant one. In contrast to the upstart, but powerful Freys. Clearly no one sees marrying with a Westerling, instead of a Frey, as a good trade. That's because we're talking about the world where social rank clearly isn't everything.

And you're another person who to my "they were little more than peasants with a run-down castle, titles and few swords" replies to "not true, not just peasants with swords, they had titles, too!". Tiresome.

So his act in the books are more understandable and logical and justified. I don't know about honorable though. He did have obligations to Freys.

Yes, he could've decided not to marry Jane but that would be scandal of sort and both of them would be shamed.

If he chose not to marry Talisa no one would notice because no one IS noticing her because she is nobody.

If he chose not to marry Jeyne, no one not named Westerling would give a rat's ass. And since the Westerlings are scarce and insignificant, it would be pretty much the same as "no one".

[mcb]

Nitpick all you like about whether or not Robb married Jeyne for 'honor' and was like Ned Stark or just another selfish bastard like everyone else in the books all you like - that's subject to personal opinion on reading the books for yourself. But you cannot argue they changed the Jeyne Westerling story so drastically it barely resembles anything at all from the book.

Sure I can. What they changed is an insignificant detail (at least until we go into the whole "pregnant or not" issue, which is book 5/book 6 territory anyway). Making his doom device into an actual character, giving her lines to read, showing some sort of buildup to the fuckup, is better storytelling than the diabolus ex machina in the novel. But for the bottom line it's as much irrelevant as the shape of the Hand's badge of office: in the books it's a chain, and at the end Tyrion uses it to strangle Shae; in the TV show it's a brooch, so clearly that solution of Shae-Tyrion's relationship went out of the window. Yet it makes virtually no difference.

"Robb married some chick named Talisa, pissed off Walder Frey and got betrayed and killed at the Red Wedding" is next to identical to "Robb married Jeyne, a maiden from noble but insignificant House Westerling, pissed off Walder Frey and got betrayed and killed at the Red Wedding".

[Giskard Reventlov]

No, social rank most certainly is not everything. The Westerlings are an old house, true, but at the same time insignificant one. In contrast to the upstart, but powerful Freys. Clearly no one sees marrying with a Westerling, instead of a Frey, as a good trade. That's because we're talking about the world where social rank clearly isn't everything. And you're another person who to my "they were little more than peasants with a run-down castle, titles and few swords" replies to "not true, not just peasants with swords, they had titles, too!". Tiresome. If he chose not to marry Jeyne, no one not named Westerling would give a rat's ass. And since the Westerlings are scarce and insignificant, it would be pretty much the same as "no one".

In that setting it is very, very important though not everything. Money and wealth also add to social rank in this regard so, yes, Freys are more desirable as allies.

But in this regard, Talissa is nobody.

As for Westerlings....http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Westerling

There is always a difference between old nobility and nouveau riches .

We all know what happened to Lisa Tully and what social rank (and wealth and power) meant in that matter. Also see Littlefinger and Davos. They got money and power but were always regarded as less.

If he chose not to marry Jane that story would always follow him, forever. If he chose not to mary Talisa nobody would remember it.

[Giskard Reventlov]

"Robb married some chick named Talisa, pissed off Walder Frey and got betrayed and killed at the Red Wedding" is next to identical to "Robb married Jeyne, a maiden from noble but insignificant House Westerling, pissed off Walder Frey and got betrayed and killed at the Red Wedding".

This is where you are wrong. They didn't just took different route, by doing this they have changed Robb's character and motivations and it is a pretty big deal.