[Book spoilers] They ruined Robb Stark

[Ser Hippie]

unless the point is that cersei has bad sources, it doesn't work. as far as we know, tyrion hasnt seen ros in kings landing. you can't just assume weird connections that haven't been alluded to, to fill in plot holes.

We don't know if he's seen Ros or not, we haven't really seen him on-screen with any whores because it'd be a complete waste of time to show him going to a whorehouse just to set up this one scene (now, there's an argument it should have been shown to demonstrate Tyrion's character, but that's another argument). We do, however, know of Tyrion's reputation through the Tysha story and how Tywin and Cersei view him, so not explicitly showing him with whores doesn't make the scene "not work" unless you're predisposed to assuming it won't. Unless, of course, you think the Rugen scene in the books doesn't work?

Also, I do think Cersei's source being wrong is meant to imply that she's either got a bad source or, more likely, Tyrion has friends (again, most likely Varys). The show has been playing up the Varys-Tyrion friendship after all.

It's not a plot hole, at all, sorry. This type of complaining is especially ironic given the complaining about non-readers requiring hand-holding in this very topic.

[SerMixalot]

Also, I do think Cersei's source being wrong is meant to imply that she's either got a bad source or, more likely, Tyrion has friends (again, most likely Varys). The show has been playing up the Varys-Tyrion friendship after all. It's not a plot hole, at all, sorry.

you dont thik that varys throwing ros under the bus (albeit to protect shae) wouldnt impact the T-V relationship

[Ser Hippie]

you dont thik that varys throwing ros under the bus (albeit to protect shae) wouldnt impact the T-V relationship

Why would it? Tyrion has no reason to suspect/know Varys was behind it (we're just conjecturing ourselves), and Tyrion's preoccupied anyway.

If/when that plays itself out, Tyrion might be slightly angry but I think you're exaggerating how much he "cares about broken things". He'd probably just try to compensate Ros financially; it's not like he's the patron saint for the downtrodden here, even in his somewhat-whitewashed TV version.

[Reposado]

We don't know if he's seen Ros or not, we haven't really seen him on-screen with any whores because it'd be a complete waste of time to show him going to a whorehouse just to set up this one scene (now, there's an argument it should have been shown to demonstrate Tyrion's character, but that's another argument). We do, however, know of Tyrion's reputation through the Tysha story and how Tywin and Cersei view him, so not explicitly showing him with whores doesn't make the scene "not work" unless you're predisposed to assuming it won't. Unless, of course, you think the Rugen scene in the books doesn't work? Also, I do think Cersei's source being wrong is meant to imply that she's either got a bad source or, more likely, Tyrion has friends (again, most likely Varys). The show has been playing up the Varys-Tyrion friendship after all. It's not a plot hole, at all, sorry. This type of complaining is especially ironic given the complaining about non-readers requiring hand-holding in this very topic.

eh, disagree. it only seems to work if youve read the book and know there was a scene like that. on its own merit, its a wtf moment. "Why would she think that?" "well other than the fact that cersei knows he likes whores and ros is the only one in town." "but umm why?"

[SerMixalot]

Why would it? Tyrion has no reason to suspect/know Varys was behind it (we're just conjecturing ourselves), and Tyrion's preoccupied anyway. If/when that plays itself out, Tyrion might be slightly angry but I think you're exaggerating how much he "cares about broken things". He'd probably just try to compensate Ros financially; it's not like he's the patron saint for the downtrodden here, even in his somewhat-whitewashed TV version.

ummm, well Tyrion's character is actually sort of the patron saint of Cripples, Bastards and Broken Things. They named an entire episode in season 1 to that effect :drunk:

[Ser Hippie]

eh, disagree. it only seems to work if youve read the book and know there was a scene like that. on its own merit, its a wtf moment. "Why would she think that?" "well other than the fact that cersei knows he likes whores and ros is the only one in town." "but umm why?"

Of course, that's not what happened, and we don't need every little thing explained to us when it's something as mundane as someone being informed upon. We don't see Varys getting his reports, do we? We don't see Ramsay Snow reporting to Roose (hey, what a plot hole, Roose conveniently has a bastard son in position to help at Winterfell!), we don't need to see Cersei being informed because it's both a waste from a show production point of view and is something we're already informed about from Cersei (and Tywin's) dialogue.

In any case, what actually happened is

(1) Cersei is looking to hit back at Tyrion

(2) Someone, apparently either stupid or (more likely) tying to misdirect her, points a finger at Ros

(3) The necklace, a valuable Lannister item, is discovered with Ros (at some point)

What, exactly, is missing here? Do you think Cersei should have gotten an episode to play detective in KL to determine if the whore that got named as Tyrion's mistress is the right one, when she apparently has both (1) a source and (2) fairly damning evidence of a Lannister connection?

Recall, after all, that she mocks Tyrion for being so obvious and giving "his whore" a Lannister necklace. That's Cersei in a nutshell.

ummm, well Tyrion's character is actually sort of the patron saint of Cripples, Bastards and Broken Things. They named an entire episode in season 1 to that effect

He's friendly to a highborn noble bastard. He's not a saint, he doesn't really do much for the people of King's Landing, for example. Like I said, he'd probably feel bad and try to compensate Ros, but he's not going to do anything major against Varys (if it is Varys).

[Ferrous]

Obviously GRR Martin is going to have Roose or Ramsay be the prince who was promised.

D & D know this and are trying to shape Roose as the sympathetic reluctant hero who has to betray Robb for the good of the realm.

[Reposado]

Of course, that's not what happened, and we don't need every little thing explained to us when it's something as mundane as someone being informed upon. We don't see Varys getting his reports, do we? We don't see Ramsay Snow reporting to Roose (hey, what a plot hole, Roose conveniently has a bastard son in position to help at Winterfell!), we don't need to see Cersei being informed because it's both a waste from a show production point of view and is something we're already informed about from Cersei (and Tywin's) dialogue

its not that we need to see her being informed. its that there needs to be a reason why someone would tell her those things. we know that she has spies watching tyrion. anything she has been informed of should be something that tyrion was actually doing at some point.

[SerMixalot]

Actually book Tyrion did do what he could for the people of KL, GRRM made a point of tyrion making an effort to get food to the people. I find it odd that you are arguing this point, this is essential tyrion, his love for cripples, bastards and broken things.

Now he did do as you say sending jewels to alayaya, my point is that if Varys were the one that threw Alayaya under the bus and tyrion learned of it, than it would impact their relationship, in the book, Tyrion never learns ofwho told cersei of his relationship with Alayaya, though he wasnt hiding it at all, so it is of less import thanestablishing a link with someone he had no link with

[zippypoodle]

Why are we even having this discussion about rape? Robb Starke would never do that..... And even if HBORobb Starke did it would totally destroy the character and go against everything his father and mother taught him.... Lets get back to reality. The show jumped the sharked with this episoe (if they hadn't already). Catelyn freeing Jaime was an absolute atrocity.....

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!! Too funny!!!

Oh wait, you were serious...

[_Oberyn_]

No, its NOT about pandering to the lowest common denominator at all. It is being 100% realistic about the demands of a TV show vs reading a book, where there is an amazingly complex world and multiple parallel story lines. ...... /size.

Though your argument could makense as a general principle it does not hold much water. Lets look at the current subject, Robbs story. Its an unmitigated fuck up. Why? Is not a budget thing, is not time constraints and it is not a complex story. So why? The first posibility is what CrypticWeirwood said, fodder for the unwashed masses, Or maybe they had a little leeway and they thought they could do better tha Martin Or....or... No mater what the result is still "pigshit".

[birdsong66]

its not that we need to see her being informed. its that there needs to be a reason why someone would tell her those things. we know that she has spies watching tyrion. anything she has been informed of should be something that tyrion was actually doing at some point.

I think it could be a simple as someone providing a whore while still maintaining the pretext of an alliance with both Cercei and Tyrion. That someone, maintaining an alliance with Cercei provides a whore, while simultaneously not providing the whore to maintain an alliance with Tyrion. With the added benefit of making Cercei look like a smug idiot.

That person has to be Varys as he is the only player that benefits from establishing/maintaining an alliance with both siblings. It also puts Tyrion on notice that at any moment Varys could give Shae up to Cercei, allows Tyrion to see that Cercei is a conniving, albeit totally delusional, player set against him, and gives Cercei a much needed ego boost at the expense of someone she considers an enemy to herself, and her children, altogether.

Varys. Is. Badass.

[Ser Hippie]

Actually book Tyrion did do what he could for the people of KL, GRRM made a point of tyrion making an effort to get food to the people. I find it odd that you are arguing this point, this is essential tyrion, his love for cripples, bastards and broken things.

Yeah, but we're not talking about book Tyrion are we? TV Tyrion is a generally nice guy who's also somewhat oblivious about how much his good deeds actually affect the non-nobles around him (i.e. his shock at being called a demon monkey because the people don't appreciate things like replacing Janos Slynt).

He's not some relentless champion of the underdog in the TV series (he isn't in the books either but that's irrelevant).

Now he did do as you say sending jewels to alayaya, my point is that if Varys were the one that threw Alayaya under the bus and tyrion learned of it, than it would impact their relationship, in the book, Tyrion never learns ofwho told cersei of his relationship with Alayaya, though he wasnt hiding it at all, so it is of less import thanestablishing a link with someone he had no link with

Okay?

I'm not sure what your point is. If Varys was behind it, if Tyrion finds out, then it's worth looking at. We have to get there first, though.

Edit: the post above me is worth reading.

[zippypoodle]

Sure I can. What they changed is an insignificant detail (at least until we go into the whole "pregnant or not" issue, which is book 5/book 6 territory anyway). Making his doom device into an actual character, giving her lines to read, showing some sort of buildup to the fuckup, is better storytelling than the diabolus ex machina in the novel. But for the bottom line it's as much irrelevant as the shape of the Hand's badge of office: in the books it's a chain, and at the end Tyrion uses it to strangle Shae; in the TV show it's a brooch, so clearly that solution of Shae-Tyrion's relationship went out of the window. Yet it makes virtually no difference. "Robb married some chick named Talisa, pissed off Walder Frey and got betrayed and killed at the Red Wedding" is next to identical to "Robb married Jeyne, a maiden from noble but insignificant House Westerling, pissed off Walder Frey and got betrayed and killed at the Red Wedding".

Great post. You have definitively ended the argument.

This is where you are wrong. They didn't just took different route, by doing this they have changed Robb's character and motivations and it is a pretty big deal.

Didn't you hear the argument has been definitively ended?

[zippypoodle]

I haven't watched this week's 'inside the episode' yet. Wow, that is quite revealing how oddly the producers have interpreted the reasons behind Robb's decision to sleep with and marry Jeyne Westerling... I don't think ANY of us, no matter how much we disagree on how the relationship with this different woman, "Talisa" should or could have played out would have seen that particular interpretation coming. Now I'm even more confused than I was before as to why they changed Jeyne Westerling into Talisa of Volantis. If Robb Stark decided to screw around with her because he's mad at his Mother, then I'm completely at a loss as to how they're going to interpret everything else in Robb's story to his end. Is the Red Wedding now Catelyn's fault too?! Very very strange interpretation of motives...

They did it to piss off book purists. Apparently it worked. As does the Robb/Talisa storyline.

[Areo Speedwagon]

Im sorry but it can be done. Case in point season 1

Another Case in Point Theon and WInterfell storyline this season.

That would be case in point if CoK was exactly as long as GoT, had exactly the same amount of characters, the exact same number of locations, etc. but, it doesn't. In the book there are about a dozen new locations (plus the pre-existing ones), there are probably upwards of 50 new characters - and not just throw aways, but main characters (plus the pre-existing ones), and the story is just plain longer and more complex. So the case doesn't really hold up.

As to Theon and the Winterfell story, D&D aren't just adapting Theon's story, they're not even adapting A Clash of Kings. They are adapting A Song of Ice and Fire. When all is said and done, the writers will have probably close to 8,000 pages to adapt into what will probably be 60 or 70 (I hope 80) hours if they're/we're lucky. When looked at from this point of view, if you can honestly make a case that how Robb breaks his oath and with whom is vital to an 8,000 page epic about the magical return of an assumed extinct animal in the dragon, the return of a generations long winter that, with it, heralds the return of a long thought extinct race of ice demons who threaten the existence of every living thing on the planet, and the seemingly celestial, if not divine, intervention from the Old Gods and R'llor in this return, not to mention the subtextual theme of an era in Westerosi history coming to an end, I would love to hear it. But I really don't see the point in getting so upset about someone, who when looked at in this light, is fairly insignificant. Robb Stark is human depicition of theme in these stories, not plot. And I honestly think that within the context i just described, his theme remains exactly the same. Robb Stark, won every battle but lost everything. And lost it because he broke an oath.

Furthermore, when you think about the task at hand for the writers from this perspective, to say that they are changing things for no reason, I think that can be called, at the very least, short sighted.

And for what it's worth, this thread has inspired me to ask the 5 people I know who watch the show but haven't read the books specifically if they liked the Robb/Talisa story and the answer was unanimously positive. Maybe you know people with different tastes, but I can only report as to the people I've spoken with.

[Arrogant Bastard]

I haven't watched this week's 'inside the episode' yet. Wow, that is quite revealing how oddly the producers have interpreted the reasons behind Robb's decision to sleep with and marry Jeyne Westerling... I don't think ANY of us, no matter how much we disagree on how the relationship with this different woman, "Talisa" should or could have played out would have seen that particular interpretation coming.

Now I'm even more confused than I was before as to why they changed Jeyne Westerling into Talisa of Volantis. If Robb Stark decided to screw around with her because he's mad at his Mother, then I'm completely at a loss as to how they're going to interpret everything else in Robb's story to his end. Is the Red Wedding now Catelyn's fault too?!

Very very strange interpretation of motives...

Yeah, that's a really odd interpreation of motives, and one that's obviously not from the books at all, since Robb didn't even know about Cat's betrayal at the time. Still, looking past that, on the show I never thought his sleeping with Talisa had anything to do with Catelyn. If that really was what they were trying to get across, it didn't come through at all screen.

[birdsong66]

I haven't watched this week's 'inside the episode' yet. Wow, that is quite revealing how oddly the producers have interpreted the reasons behind Robb's decision to sleep with and marry Jeyne Westerling... I don't think ANY of us, no matter how much we disagree on how the relationship with this different woman, "Talisa" should or could have played out would have seen that particular interpretation coming.

Now I'm even more confused than I was before as to why they changed Jeyne Westerling into Talisa of Volantis. If Robb Stark decided to screw around with her because he's mad at his Mother, then I'm completely at a loss as to how they're going to interpret everything else in Robb's story to his end. Is the Red Wedding now Catelyn's fault too?!

Very very strange interpretation of motives...

They did it to piss off book purists. Apparently it worked. As does the Robb/Talisa storyline.

I think in the context of HBOGoT, their interpretation makes sense as it was Catelyn's betrayal, not Theon's, or the deaths of B/R, that immediately proceeded the encounter. I really don't think they deliberately set out to piss of "book purists" as that would ultimately be, in some measure, self defeating. I think they weighed their options, and Catelyn was the easiest to toss on the fire because it's not like viewers were going to hate her less than those who hated her in the books. If anything, whether she was right or wrong, she remains the same polarizing character on HBO and the books. So, zero-sum game there.

Personally, I wish D&D appreciated the character more, but twas not to be apparently.

Seriously, "I slept with her because I was made at my mom" totally made me burst out laughing.....

[My_Arya_Spirit]

I never believed for a second that BookRobb married Jeyne for any reason other than love/hormones. I also wanted to see this played out on television, because I thought BookRobb should have had a POV.

However, we are making a lot of assumptions here about the future storyline. There are many reasons that Robb could marry Talissa.

Perhaps, his mother again forbids him to do so, and he does it just to prove he can (I have 6 teenagers, so I know what I am talking about here.)

Perhaps Talissa is arrested or captured and the only way Robb can ensure her safety is to call her his Queen.

Perhaps Talissa disappears or dies (kidnapped, her conscience dictates it, whatever) and Robb then simply refuses to marry the Frey girl at their actual wedding and so is murdered. Remember, we do not have an Edmure Tully as a substitute yet, so more improvising is surely ahead.

Maybe Talissa even goes along with the plan that Robb shall marry the Frey girl, yet accompanies Robb to the wedding, and the Freys murder them both.

I give the writers tremendous credit, and knowing that Martin is writing the next episode tells me that things should be very interesting. Martin is the master of the unexpected after all.

[DurararaFTW]

I don't think ANY of us, no matter how much we disagree on how the relationship with this different woman, "Talisa" should or could have played out would have seen that particular interpretation coming.

Now I'm even more confused than I was before as to why they changed Jeyne Westerling into Talisa of Volantis.

Westerlings are Lannister bannermen. They can't have Robb have an extended relationship with her prior to marriage, while in the camps. Catelyn and Bolton would totally talk him out of it and she would not allowed to just wander around the camp. This way, they can have Robb and the love interest build up this relationship, on the same set that Robb interacts with Catelyn and Bolton in. So, insofar as this adaption putting Robb in the spotlight and thus needing to flesh out his character (and flesh out his bookwise onedimensional love interest), I get that. Execution not with standing, i can understand where they were coming from with this.

Bran/Rickon's death not being public knowledge by this point on the other hand I just do not understand.