[Book spoilers] They ruined Robb Stark

[birdsong66]

Bran/Rickon's death not being public knowledge by this point on the other hand I just do not understand.

This information will no doubt be relayed sometime during the final two episodes. Likely, Robb will have to tell Catelyn. While under guard. And the idea that he will have to tell her that his decision to send Theon to treat with Baylon resulted in the capture, and subsequent deaths of her two youngest children, while he has had her imprisoned for her betrayal....I really hope TPTB play that scene for every bit of gut wrenching, in your face, look what you have done Robb potential that it has. Epic potential.

Cautiously hopeful that this is why they didn't allow for Catelyn to defend herself, her actions, her impossible situation that Robb left her in by his absence....so that Fairley can kill that fucking scene.

We'll see.

[DurararaFTW]

This information will no doubt be relayed sometime during the final two episodes. Likely, Robb will have to tell Catelyn. While under guard. And the idea that he will have to tell her that his decision to send Theon to treat with Baylon resulted in the capture, and subsequent deaths of her two youngest children, while he has had her imprisoned for her betrayal....I really hope TPTB play that scene for every bit of gut wrenching, in your face, look what you have done Robb potential that it has. Epic potential.

Cautiously hopeful that this is why they didn't allow for Catelyn to defend herself, her actions, her impossible situation that Robb left her in by his absence....so that Fairley can kill that fucking scene.

We'll see.

Yeah, I guess it could work as them reconciling over their grief, like Robert and Ned over Lyanna's death.

[Howdyphillip]

To the OP,

I agree with the base premise of your post. I also believe that the tale told about Rob Stark and his relationship with Jeyne Westerling is better in principle than the story being told on the series. That story would have been very brief on the TV show. I can't speak for the writers, but I assume that they made the changes to the story in order to give the audience more time with these characters as they will play such an integral part of the story next season. In the books, we never have a POV from Rob. We hear about him from other characters. There is no way to give a viewing audience the same kind of emotional reactions that we as book readers experienced when reading about the Red Wedding without getting to know the characters involved. This story allows for that, while the way it is written does not just due to time constraints. (He can't meet Jeyne Westerling until the Crag in the story which would leave all of 2 episodes and around 4 minutes of screen time for the audience to get to know them.) As for the world not knowing about the "deaths" of Bran and Rikon, I have to believe that the writers have done this for a reason that has yet to be told. Possibly so that the Reeds can be sent to serve them next season. If it is well known they are dead, then they would not be able to hook up with them next year.

I cringe at changes at first as well, but then I stop a moment and try and reason to myself what the writers are thinking when they make the changes. This is one that I understand. I would much rather have a deeper connection to Rob when his curtain is drawn. This show is not just for me as a book reader. People who have never seen the show need to throw their remote through the TV just as I threw my book across the room. I think that this is a change that will make that outcome more likely.

That said, I don't find these scenes to be the best acted in the series. Richard Maddon's delivery seems a little dry, and the dialogue is too predictable, but it still conveys to the audience the emotional attachment to Robb that we were privy to as book readers.

I take strong issue with the word "ruined" in the post title. Even with disappointment that things are not exactly like they are in the books, I think words like this, and "horrible", or "terrible" are just unfair for this TV series. I have been a fan of fantasy literature my whole life, and nothing has even come close to being a better representation of this genre on TV.

[Morrigan]

Thanks for the well-written, thoughtful post. "Ruined" is a bit of hyperbole I guess, but I do feel strongly that Robb has been acting completely out of character in this storyline. And it's not like I'm a huge fan of Robb, as I said in the OP the Red Wedding upset me more because Catelyn died, not Robb. But it invariably annoys me when character's personalities are completely altered. Ah well...

if you watch the inside the edition episode, D&D blame robb's cheatingon his mother!!!!!!!!!!! they say Robb was living in a world of honor raised by Ned and Cat to act a certain way but all around him people were living dishonorably. and when lCat betrayed him he was so pissed that he figured fuck it. AAARRRGGHHHHHH blaming Cat for Robb screwing around. flabbergasted

This isn't true, is it? Someone, please tell me this isn't true. Please...

[protar]

Thanks for the well-written, thoughtful post. "Ruined" is a bit of hyperbole I guess, but I do feel strongly that Robb has been acting completely out of character in this storyline. And it's not like I'm a huge fan of Robb, as I said in the OP the Red Wedding upset me more because Catelyn died, not Robb. But it invariably annoys me when character's personalities are completely altered. Ah well... This isn't true, is it? Someone, please tell me this isn't true. Please...

It is indeed true, I just watched the video. Basically they think that Robb is tired of being the only one being honourable and that Cat freeing Jaime was the final straw. I am now convinced that D+D neither understand or respect the source material.

[Lord Over]

TV Robb: Bwwwwwwwwaaaa~~ My momma didn't listen to me like I'm a big boy, I'mma go have de sex!!

All I can say is, bring on the The Red Wedding. In the words of Hitler, "I've never seen people more foolish than the Starks, they deserve to die for their stupidity!!"

[mcb]

TV Robb: Bwwwwwwwwaaaa~~ My momma didn't listen to me like I'm a big boy, I'mma go have de sex!!

Book Robb: "oy vey, I deflowered a girl, I'd better piss on my oaths and bring doom upon my house and my kingdom to make it up to her". Really that much better? You must be kidding.

The difference is, he wasn't expected to be Sir Galahad the Pure, while he was expected to honor his oaths.

[_Oberyn_]

It is indeed true, I just watched the video. Basically they think that Robb is tired of being the only one being honourable and that Cat freeing Jaime was the final straw. I am now convinced that D+D neither understand or respect the source material.

I second that, apparently Talisas "probing questions" had something to do with it too. *facepalm* Jesus wept.

[Fantôme]

It is indeed true, I just watched the video. Basically they think that Robb is tired of being the only one being honourable and that Cat freeing Jaime was the final straw. I am now convinced that D+D neither understand or respect the source material.

They are talking about the storyline they wrote for the show , not about the books , right? Because since they've read them they have to know Robb learned about Cat's betrayal after he slept with Jeyne.

[Greywolf2375]

I dont thinkthe tv series has ruined robb at all. Either way, its the same outcome, he breaks his vows.

For me though it isn't the destination, it's the journey. yes, we suppose in the end he is going to break his vow and marry Jey...Talissa. I much preferred the boyish moment of weakness followed by the attempt at man-ish honor than knowingly and intentionally breaking his word.

The thing that will be interesting to see how they do this is since he is still surrounded by his bannerman - some of who aren't total nobs - just how he is going to get away with marrying her without someone smacking him upside the head.

[protar]

They are talking about the storyline they wrote for the show , not about the books , right? Because since they've read them they have to know Robb learned about Cat's betrayal after he slept with Jeyne.

I starting to doubt they even know that. And in any case their explanation is a complete mess, and doesn't at all match up with either book or show Robb.

[The Anti-Targ]

Damn, if what D&D said about Robb's motivation is true then that's truly terrible subtext, amateurish and unworthy. OK sure, he's upset at what Cat did, but please at least make his motivation a general feeling of losing control and wanting some comfort in the arms of a woman he's fallen for. Not revenge sex.

Still there's a way to rescue this which I hadn't thought of, including Talissa having genuine feelings for Robb and not being a mole. Courtesy of TV fans who're dedicated to not being spoiled.

From the Television Wiuthout Pity Forum: So unless Robb produces an legitimate heir asap the Stark family is going to end with him and Winterfell will fall to the Lannisters. Robb can't wait until the war is over to marry a Frey girl, because he is probably not going to survive the war (Margaery told Renly, that he is not safe until he produces an heir).

So, Robb and Talissa agree that it's a fling, and Robb must stay true to his oath. Then the news comes that Bran and Rickon are dead. Robb needs to get busy breeding a legitimate heir. He decides, possibly after talking to some lords about the importance of making an heir(please not Cat, actually Cat should strongly disagree) that he must marry Talissa now and get a legitimate son (hopefully) ASAP. The irony being of course that his death comes at the hands of the family he was going to be marrying into.

That's not a terrible way for Robb and Talissa to end up married. Still nothing on the original story, but it saves it from being completely terrible.

In the book we don't yet know if Jeyne is or isn't preggers (probably isn't). But we do know Robb was very busily trying to breed.

[birdsong66]

They are talking about the storyline they wrote for the show , not about the books , right? Because since they've read them they have to know Robb learned about Cat's betrayal after he slept with Jeyne.

Yes. This quote is specifically about the circumstances that were developed on HBOGoT. So, basically, the argument "But she started it" is intended to suffice the adaptation.

[Fantôme]

I starting to doubt they even know that. And in any case their explanation is a complete mess, and doesn't at all match up with either book or show Robb.

I agree this is ridiculous either way.

Yes. This quote is specifically about the circumstances that were developed on HBOGoT. So, basically, the argument "But she started it" is intended to suffice the adaptation.

Wow I liked the arguments of the fans justifying it far better.

[David Selig]

I don't see what the big deal is with what D&D said. In the context of the show Robb's motivation makes sense. Sure, it's completely different from the books, but there the plot is totally different too. The dumb part is that for no apparent reason Catelyn didn't explain why she had to release Jaime that night, but if we ignore this and accept that Robb felt betrayed by his other, his reaction is not that strange.

So, Robb and Talissa agree that it's a fling, and Robb must stay true to his oath. Then the news comes that Bran and Rickon are dead. Robb needs to get busy breeding a legitimate heir. He decides, possibly after talking to some lords about the importance of making an heir(please not Cat, actually Cat should strongly disagree) that he must marry Talissa now and get a legitimate son (hopefully) ASAP. The irony being of course that his death comes at the hands of the family he was going to be marrying into.

That's not a terrible way for Robb and Talissa to end up married. Still nothing on the original story, but it saves it from being completely terrible.

But if he needs a heir ASAP, why not marry the Frey girl immediately? Lord Walder would surely agree.

[protar]

I don't see what the big deal is with what D&D said. In the context of the show Robb's motivation makes sense. Sure, it's completely different from the books, but there the plot is totally different too. The dumb part is that for no apparent reason Catelyn didn't explain why she had to release Jaime that night, but if we ignore this and accept that Robb felt betrayed by his other, his reaction is not that strange.

Which leads back to the question: Why change it in the first place? The only reason I can think of is that D+D wildly misinterpreted the books and wanted to emphasise their interpretation in the show.

[birdsong66]

I have to believe there is a reason TPTB have decided on this course of action/plotline/arc.

Perhaps it is a simple as providing side by side examples of consequences, and building it so that as a viewer your "judgement" bounces from one to the other as a means to lay blame.

Robb leaves camp with Talisa--poor form, viewers collectively WTF

Consequence: Discord, threats of beheadings, Jamie is released by Catelyn.

Catelyn releases Jaime--poor form, viewers collectively WTF

Consequence: Loss of valuable hostage, loss of trust between Robb/Catelyn, imprisonment for Catelyn, Northern forces weakened.

Robb sleeps with Talisa--poor form, viewers collectively WTF (despite enjoying sex scene with naked girl, ohhhhh boobies)

Consequence: Robb's honor potentially compromised, Compromised in front of his troops, future betrayals of bannermen, pregnancy(?)

But the mother of all is...

Robb sends Theon to Baylon: ill advised, specifically advised by both parents NOT to do this

Consequence: Loss of family seat, two youngest siblings captured, two youngest siblings presumed/reported dead, fewer heirs to Winterfell,

y'all getting the idea? Placing all of those back to back, building it, in some small way, redeems Catelyn's actions whereas Robb's become ill advised at best, absolutely devastating, worst.

So, possibly, there is still hope?

[mike_s_6]

I didn't read the whole thread, but I somehow agree with OP.

For me though, it was not at all about Robb's character. He was a fool, even in the book. But, the way it was handled in the show softened the series of events that was topped with Robb's foolishness. Mainly these:

Winterfell captured.

Bran and Rickon dead, their heads on display in Winterfell.

Catelyn grieves so much she loses her head and lets their captive go.

Robb grieves and makes the mistake of marrying someone else.

The Stark hope was turning into a massive trainwreck. I was speechless and furious and disappointed at how awful everything was turning out. But now in the TV series... Not so much. My expected trainwreck of emotions didn't arrive, all because they decided to leave the deaths of Bran and Rickon out of the equation of the others' decisions.

I never thought I would criticize any of the changes until this came!

[Bride of Winter]

people who are mad at the Robb/Talisa storyline aren't necessarily book purists by any means. Honestly, in the show they're pretty much completely negating the point Book Robb stands to make. The Red Wedding's a huge plot point, yes, but it's not the point of Robb's story. his arc isn't "he fucks up and then there's a really awesome massacre"

Robb's arc is about how he goes from having everything going for him, to losing his bannermen one by one and driving some to betrayal. The point isn't that he dies, but WHY. Winning every battle and losing the war would have no meaning if his betrayal came out of nowhere. It's how he arrived there that matters. and theres a difference between being consumed by your naive and idealistic vision of honor and not cut out for the game of thrones (book Robb), and being reckless, dumb, and inconsiderate (show Robb)

Robb is not just a plot device to bring on the Red Wedding. believe it or not, he's his own character with his own story.

[SelaBela]

You sure that's not just a knee-jerk reaction on your part? People do crazy things after major trauma in their lives - see Catelyn freeing Jaime. He has just found out that his foster brother, a close friend, has not only betrayed him but murdered his two actual brothers. I would want to lash out in that situation, and Theon is a long ways away. Who would be the convenient target for your rage at that point? I think the enemy family whose castle you are occupying, vassals of the Lannisters who killed your old man, are as good a punching bag as any.

Again, it would be a moment of temporary insanity, if you will. But I feel like doing right by her would provide a strong motive for breaking his oath to the Freys. He would have to do right by Jeyne after that, as a Stark. But marrying her after a consensual one-night stand is just boneheaded and frankly hard to wrap my head around. I think GRRM could have provided a stronger motive

And for those saying that the family would never agree to a marriage after that, what better choice would they have? She's been deflowered and dishonored, and might be carrying his child anyway. And she's being offered a chance to be Queen of the North from a man who is genuinely remorseful

Not sure if anyone has already told you this, still going through the thread, but rape is about power. Not lust. So I'm not sure where you're thinking his rage from her "giving him shit" + lust = rape.