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Morrigan

[Book spoilers] They ruined Robb Stark

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Wow I liked the arguments of the fans justifying it far better.

LOL. Seriously, I am quite far from offering justifications for this turn of events a la D&DHBOGoT.

Perhaps I've just accepted that D&D do not care for the character of Catelyn as I do, the result of which is she becomes a shadow of the badass that she could be periodically in the books, and the show reflects this specific interpretation?

I would LOVE TO BE WRONG.....

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i reread the scene last night where Robb confronts Cat after returning to Riverrun with his new bride and I have to say it is one of my favorites from the series.

Cat is sitting in isolation for weeks worrying over Jamies travels and worrying about Robbs reaction to her releasing Jamie.

Robb comes back, Cat witnesses this mysterious conflict in the castle yard with knights angrily leaving the castle

She is summoned to Robb

She nervously but bravely enters the room, listens to Karstark angrily confronting robb and leaving, speaks up to Robb, wondering all the time who the strangers behind Robb are.

Robb forgives her. She is completely relieved.

They move on to introducing her to his new bride. WTF!!!!!!!!

She realizes she has been completely played by Robb! She also realizes the magnitude of his error.

They then move onto switching from praising Edmure to slamming him for fighting Tywin

Then they try to solve the Frey problem by offering up Edmure

Pure beauty. I wish they could have transf erred that scene to tv. It would have been epic if well acted

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I second that, apparently Talisas "probing questions" had something to do with it too. *facepalm* Jesus wept.

In Robbs defense if Ooona ever asked me "how I was doing" I would probably fall in love enough to throw away my kingdom, as humble as it is.

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i reread the scene last night where Robb confronts Cat after returning to Riverrun with his new bride and I have to say it is one of my favorites from the series.

Cat is sitting in isolation for weeks worrying over Jamies travels and worrying about Robbs reaction to her releasing Jamie.

Robb comes back, Cat witnesses this mysterious conflict in the castle yard with knights angrily leaving the castle

She is summoned to Robb

She nervously but bravely enters the room, listens to Karstark angrily confronting robb and leaving, speaks up to Robb, wondering all the time who the strangers behind Robb are.

Robb forgives her. She is completely relieved.

They move on to introducing her to his new bride. WTF!!!!!!!!

She realizes she has been completely played by Robb! She also realizes the magnitude of his error.

They then move onto switching from praising Edmure to slamming him for fighting Tywin

Then they try to solve the Frey problem by offering up Edmure

Pure beauty. I wish they could have transf erred that scene to tv. It would have been epic if well acted

Yup. the timing of that scene was perfect. as opposed to in the show Robb just makes a huge ass out of himself by yelling at his mother for ruining his war efforts then turning around and banging Talisa 5 minutes later because he "doesn't want to marry the Frey girl". boo hoo.

not to mention, one of my favorite lines is when Robb says "nobody calls my Lady of Winterfell a traitor in my hearing" to defend Catelyn against everyone (specifically Karstark) whose saying she committed treason, but on the show he's on Karstarks side. It's just beyond stupid.

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Just rewatched this episode, the scene where robb is walking through the forest with talisa and a train of retainers is completely pathetic. What the Hell, this looks like a formal courting session. how does he have time for this? Did they write the war out of this season? He's going on pleasant jaunts through the forest. Didn't we just castigate Renly for not taking war seriously. At least his knights got better at fighting from the tourneys. At least his allegiances were strengthened by feasting his queen and her bannermen. ROBB IS TAKING STROLLS IN THE WOODS.

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D.B. Weiss's explanation of Robb/Talisa isn't that it's revenge sex as a direct f-u to Cat. I don't even get the sense that they dislike Cat although they've weakened her a bit. Weiss claims that Cat's betrayal jarred him awake to the realization that honor and duty should be balanced with personal happiness, that it sucks being the only one who plays by the rules. If Theon's betrayal had happened after Cat's I assume that would have done it... it was cumulative.

I was a defender of HBO-Robb because I've never been able to get over how idiotic it was for Book-Robb to marry Jeyne. I viewed his relationship with Talisa as less stupid. But I didn't really think that D&D meant for me see that Robb was "hyper-aware of what it would mean to break his oath to Walder Frey" and "sometimes your own wishes and your own desires and your own happiness do need to play a role in life." I wish I hadn't watched the Inside the Episode video for this one. Maybe I'm too Stannis-y but I don't think a king has the luxury of his own happiness in the middle of a war.

If you haven't seen it here's a transcription I did of Weiss's comment:

"Robb's sense of honor and ideals are built on his father and mother both. He's fighting this war and his mother has just done something terrible in his eyes and makes him wonder why are you following this code to the letter and why are you so committed to loyalty, honor, dignity, duty to the exclusion of all else when nobody else around you really is? Is it a smart thing to do or a stupid thing? His father was that way, what happened to his father? It all becomes too much.... all of the different promises you've made start to conflict with each other and something has to give somewhere. Robb definitely is hyper-aware of what it would mean to break his oath to Walder Frey. What's so great about Talisa is she asks him deep, probing questions forcing him to confront his own idealism in a critical way he finds challenging, makes her much more attractive to him. It's almost a bit of realism seeping into his world, an acknowledgement and recognition that people aren't perfect. Sometimes your own wishes and your own desires and your own happiness do need to play a role in life. I think there was crack in his world view and it lets these questions seep in a little bit."

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I think you are saying this with the foreknowledge of the implications this has. They also built up to this, it wasn't like it came out of no where. Robb said a few episodes back that the alliance with the Freys was to cross the bridge and save Ned.

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TV Robb: Bwwwwwwwwaaaa~~ My momma didn't listen to me like I'm a big boy, I'mma go have de sex!! All I can say is, bring on the The Red Wedding. In the words of Hitler, "I've never seen people more foolish than the Starks, they deserve to die for their stupidity!!"

I call Godwin’s Law down upon thee and thine. This thread is now closed. : }

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It is indeed true, I just watched the video. Basically they think that Robb is tired of being the only one being honourable and that Cat freeing Jaime was the final straw. I am now convinced that D+D neither understand or respect the source material.

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I can't believe it

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Just rewatched this episode, the scene where robb is walking through the forest with talisa and a train of retainers is completely pathetic. What the Hell, this looks like a formal courting session. how does he have time for this? Did they write the war out of this season?

Well, Tywin has plenty of time to discuss the world with a little servant girl.

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Robb's arc is about how he goes from having everything going for him, to losing his bannermen one by one and driving some to betrayal. The point isn't that he dies, but WHY. Winning every battle and losing the war would have no meaning if his betrayal came out of nowhere. It's how he arrived there that matters. and theres a difference between being consumed by your naive and idealistic vision of honor and not cut out for the game of thrones (book Robb), and being reckless, dumb, and inconsiderate (show Robb) Robb is not just a plot device to bring on the Red Wedding. believe it or not, he's his own character with his own story.

Yes, but it is his "honour" in actually marrying the girl he has sex with that is what brings him undone.

It doesn't really matter WHY he has sex - with some sympathetic girl stranger out of grief for his brothers, or because he has fallen in love with another woman. The bottom line plotwise is that his Stark sense of honour leads him to marry that woman. And by doing so he breaks his oath to the Freys, which is what ultimately leads to the RW. (Robb has also misjudged the deep hatreds and insecurities of Walder Frey of course). I agree that one of the tragedies of Robb's story is that despite everything he has done, all his early successes on the battlefield and being acclaimed as King of the North, the wheels start to fall off very rapidly. The terrible irony is that this is really caused not by his enemies, but by the Starks - Catelyn and Robb himself.

As the entire Jeyne story takes place "off screen" as it were in the books, I really don't care that they have given us Talisa/Jeyne, because it makes sense in the context of a TV adaptation and because, as I've said before, her scenes also serve another wider purpose with respect to establishing aspects of Robb's character that again, we only hear about in the books. And people who only watch the TV series are surely already getting the foreboding impression of things about to go terribly wrong once Cat releases Jaime, because you can see and feel the rumbling dissatisfaction within the bannermen via the Karstarks back in Episode 7.

ETA: BTW, why all the angst over the TV writers having different impressions of Robb's character? If you read the various threads on the forum here about the books, there is plenty of disgreement between avid book fans about how they see certain characters and the interpretation they put on events. There is surely no one "right" way to see every single thing or person in the books - GRRM writes shades of grey, after all - so one has to be careful about suggesting they get things totally "wrong". It's one thing to say that you don't like their interpretation of someone, and explain your reasons, but D and D are just as entitled as any other reader to their opinions. And as we are watching a work in progress, it's probably best to wait until certain arcs are completed on screen before condemning them so completely.

For example, I don't like the fact that they had Jaime kill Alton, but I also accept that this is how they see his character, and also how they wish to show various developments later. I will wait until it all plays out on screen before making my final assessment as to whether they have been successful.

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D.B. Weiss's explanation of Robb/Talisa isn't that it's revenge sex as a direct f-u to Cat. I don't even get the sense that they dislike Cat although they've weakened her a bit. Weiss claims that Robb Cat's betrayal jarred him awake to the realization that honor and duty should be balanced with personal happiness, that it sucks being the only one who plays by the rules. If Theon's betrayal had happened after Cat's I assume that would have done it... it was cumulative.

which might have made sense, if robb hadn't been actively pursuing talisa long before this.

this is what makes me think they don't know what they're doing. they don't know how to make the characters consistent with their own vision of them

Well, Tywin has plenty of time to discuss the world with a little servant girl.

i do think they kept him there for too long.(again, a decision based on casting rather than plot) But there is a reason Tywin is holed up in Harrenhal. in his war plan, he is the lion waiting to pounce. he is also trying to secure alliances to avoid unnecessary fighting.

robb is taking the war to the westerlands by carousing with their women

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Yes, but it is his "honour" in actually marrying the girl he has sex with that is what brings him undone. It doesn't really matter WHY he has sex - with some sympathetic girl stranger out of grief for his brothers, or because he has fallen in love with another woman. The bottom line plotwise is that his Stark sense of honour leads him to marry that woman. And by doing so he breaks his oath to the Freys, which is what ultimately leads to the RW. (Robb has also misjudged the deep hatreds and insecurities of Walder Frey of course). I agree that one of the tragedies of Robb's story is that despite everything he has done, all his early successes on the battlefield and being acclaimed as King of the North, the wheels start to fall off very rapidly. The terrible irony is that this is really caused not by his enemies, but by the Starks - Catelyn and Robb himself. As the entire Jeyne story takes place "off screen" as it were in the books, I really don't care that they have given us Talisa/Jeyne, because it makes sense in the context of a TV adaptation and because, as I've said before, her scenes also serve another wider purpose with respect to establishing aspects of Robb's character that again, we only hear about in the books. And people who only watch the TV series are surely already getting the foreboding impression of things about to go terribly wrong once Cat releases Jaime, because you can see and feel the rumbling dissatisfaction within the bannermen via the Karstarks.

This idea that if the end destination is the same then the journey doesn't matter really irks me. Having Robb simply sleep with Talisa for love doesn't make sense with his character and is hardly honourable. The fit of grief angle is more realistic, more in line with Robb's character and would've made for better TV. Because lets face it, the Unsullied aren't enjoying the Robb/Talisa stuff.

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I'd feel better if someone along the line had said "Stand up when you speak to the King" or "the King has better things to do with his time than talk to the likes of you" something that puts the atmosphere of a medieval society and the relationship in context.

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which might have made sense, if robb hadn't been actively pursuing talisa long before this.

Oh please - if Talisa had wanted to give him the brush off, she could have! Don't tell me that it was only Robb pursuing her.

And anyway, what is wrong with Robb taking an interest in someone like Talisa? Why shouldn't he? And why is it any more unrealistic to have him feel hurt and angry and generally pissed off over the fact that for political reasons, he is going to have to marry some unatractive Frey girl whom he's neve rmet, instead of being able to court an attractive girl normally? To me, it makes far more sense that he would want to marry someone for whom he has developed some feelings and then slept with, rather than just marry some stranger like Jeyne because of one night of passion. Ned, Catelyn, then Robb - the Stark family are all honourable idiots.

If you stand back, isn't that one of the larger GRRM themes and ironies in the books - how being "honourable" doesn't always mean you are "right". Being "honourable" in his world often brings things crashing down on you, especially when you are both honourable and naive.

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If you stand back, isn't that one of the larger GRRM themes and ironies in the books - how being "honourable" doesn't always mean you are "right". Being "honourable" in his world often brings things crashing down on you, especially when you are both honourable and naive.

I simply cannot take it anymore. Why, why on earth people call Robb marrying Jeyne Westerling "honorable"? It was anything but. He broke a contract. He weaseled out of a deal, and after the other party delivered. All this would be dishonorable for any minor lord, but Robb in one brilliant move screwed everyone he was responsible for. His kingdom, his vassals, his family.

There really is no honor in breaking oaths. Especially if he'd done just to protect the virtue of his girlfriend. The Kingslayer had a good reason; Robb Stark just thought "what would Kelly Bundy do" and acted accordingly.

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I simply cannot take it anymore. Why, why on earth people call Robb marrying Jeyne Westerling "honorable"? It was anything but. He broke a contract. He weaseled out of a deal, and after the other party delivered. All this would be dishonorable for any minor lord, but Robb in one brilliant move screwed everyone he was responsible for. His kingdom, his vassals, his family. There really is no honor in breaking oaths. Especially if he'd done just to protect the virtue of his girlfriend. The Kingslayer had a good reason; Robb Stark just thought "what would Kelly Bundy do" and acted accordingly.

It was atleast half honourable. It was honourable towards Jeyne even if it was dishonourable towards the Freys. The fact that in the show, Robb is actively courting and chasing after Talisa means it's not honourable at all.

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I simply cannot take it anymore. Why, why on earth people call Robb marrying Jeyne Westerling "honorable"? It was anything but. He broke a contract. He weaseled out of a deal, and after the other party delivered. All this would be dishonorable for any minor lord, but Robb in one brilliant move screwed everyone he was responsible for. His kingdom, his vassals, his family.

There really is no honor in breaking oaths. Especially if he'd done just to protect the virtue of his girlfriend. The Kingslayer had a good reason; Robb Stark just thought "what would Kelly Bundy do" and acted accordingly.

there is also no honor is deflowering a maiden highborn lady and walking away. His momentary lapse of reason left him with a need to protect Jeyne's honor

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there is also no honor is deflowering a maiden highborn lady and walking away. His momentary lapse of reason left him with a need to protect Jeyne's honor

True. You can really see it both ways. It's honourable for Jeyne, but completely dishonourable towards the Freys. Endless discussion I think.

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Agh, that quote about how he likes that she asks him deep, probing questions that challenge him annoys me a bit. Something I loved about Book Robb was how annoyed he got at Catelyn for challenging him and trying to get him to make peace since the cause seemed lost when they were on their way to the Twins for the wedding. I liked that he wasn't all, "Oh, I understand your point of view." He behaved realistically, and started avoiding her, and she was sad that everyone was mad at her (she'd already pissed Edmure off). Young men who are leading armies for the first time are not necessarily very excited to be challenged by those around them, perhaps because they already have inner doubts that they feel the need to overcome to do what they think is right, and they don't want other people reinforcing those doubts with 'deep probing questions.' I just feel that they keep simplifying the more complex emotional landscape of the story of the books.

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