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Morrigan

[Book spoilers] They ruined Robb Stark

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It seems to go back to not having Cat and Robb hear about the death of B&R, which I simply cant understand at this point in the show

I'm beginning to think it has to do with the fact that that they want to save up Theon's fake death for the last episode, or at the least the episode before that, so as to finish the season with a wham cliffhanger note. Since Ramsay still hasn't taken Winterfell, and Theon has it under a communications blackout, there is no way for Cat and Robb to learn about the death of the children. But since they had to move along their stories, they had to entirely rework their motivations and their dynamics to still keep Robb's marrying someone else and Cat sending Jaime to KL.

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True, but I dont understand why they had to tie the info of B&R dying to ramseys attack, I just dont see the logic. it could have gotten out without impacting ramseys assault on WF

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there is also no honor is deflowering a maiden highborn lady and walking away. His momentary lapse of reason left him with a need to protect Jeyne's honor

Funny Robert Baratheon helped create Edric Storm on the same evening that his brother Stannis was getting married, and even then he did not marry I forget what her name is, but further emphasizes the importance of honor when it comes to Starks as opposed to other families.

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This is what pisses me off the most - the writers' take on Robb is even worse because it's ridiculously inconsistent. I can't even definitively say what they're turning Robb into because he's all over the place. First they overstate his maturity by giving some of Catelyn's decisions to him, and eliminating the whole boy-king theme which is what makes his arc stand out. Then they age him down 10 years and turn him into a petulant brat sleeping with Jeyne because he doesn't want to honor his pact with the Freys (right after yelling at his mother for freeing Jaime, no less). And then apparently we're back to him being more mature and patient than 99% of Westeros, WILLING to listen to the insults some camp follower has to spew about the way he's running his war, just because he's never heard anyone speak to him like this before? oh please.

Hmm - and I dont suppose in Real Life there is ever such a person as an inconsistent teenager?! Who is ridiculously mature one minute, surprising everyone, and then turns into a complete idiot about something the next? Oh no, those particular animals only exist in fantasy worlds! :P

And that is what Robb Stark IS, when all is said and done - a teenager who was forced into adult situations all too quickly. Yes, people were expected to grow up more quickly in those days, but even so, youthful lapses were understood, and generally looked back onwith amusement / embarassment.

As we know these days from medical science, boys' brains do NOT mature in many respects until their twenties, which is why we get those tear-your-parental-hair-out reckless years, where boys can be "immortal' and do the most incredibly stupid things, with absolutely no appreciation of the risks. Or else they 'appreciate' the risks on an intellectual basis, but it never translates into how they act. Which is why we have such a high rate of young male deaths from car crashes.

So whether we have Book Robb having a moment of hormonal passion and then thinking "OMG, I have to do the right thing and marry her", or TV Show Robb gradually developing a relationship with a woman and then having a sudden moment of passion doesn't matter - the behaviour is entirely consistent with what can happen with a young man of Robb's age (book or TV). The fact that he may have had more time to think it over in the TVshow simply makes his decision all the more tragic in terms of the aftermath.

Marrying Talisa/Jeyne is a classic example of someone doing something that is "honourable" but not necessarily "right", and that is the type of dilemma that GRRM consistently poses for us in the books. Thematically, it is the exact reverse of Jaime the "Kingslayer" - people may agree that he was "right" to kill the mad tyrant Aerys, but they still condemn him for breaking his KG oath and not being "honourable". In fact, the TV show makes this symmetry even more pronounced, because TV Robb clearly has more time to think about his relationship withTalisa, and more time to make a considered decision, just as Jaime obviously had plenty of time and opportunity to kill Aerys before he did so.

I don't find TV Robb to be inconsistent at all. It is obviously inconsistent with the way some book readers view him as portrayed on TV, but surely the fact that a character can be read in various ways is the mark of a well-written character. I look at TV Robb as a young man struggling very hard to meet so many enormous adult responsibilities, being brought down by the fact that he IS a young man, who behaves in a way that is entirely natural and consistent with being the age he is on TV, and who is ultimately and tragically brought down by trying to be "honourable".

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Hmm - and I dont suppose in Real Life there is ever such a person as an inconsistent teenager?! Who is ridiculously mature one minute, surprising everyone, and then turns into a complete idiot about something the next? Oh no, those particular animals only exist in fantasy worlds! :P

And that is what Robb Stark IS, when all is said and done - a teenager who was forced into adult situations all too quickly. Yes, people were expected to grow up more quickly in those days, but even so, youthful lapses were understood, and generally looked back onwith amusement / embarassment.

As we know these days from medical science, boys' brains do NOT mature in many respects until their twenties, which is why we get those tear-your-parental-hair-out reckless years, where boys can be "immortal' and do the most incredibly stupid things, with absolutely no appreciation of the risks. Or else they 'appreciate' the risks on an intellectual basis, but it never translates into how they act. Which is why we have such a high rate of young male deaths from car crashes.

So whether we have Book Robb having a moment of hormonal passion and then thinking "OMG, I have to do the right thing and marry her", or TV Show Robb gradually developing a relationship with a woman and then having a sudden moment of passion doesn't matter - the behaviour is entirely consistent with what can happen with a young man of Robb's age (book or TV). The fact that he may have had more time to think it over in the TVshow simply makes his decision all the more tragic in terms of the aftermath.

Marrying Talisa/Jeyne is a classic example of someone doing something that is "honourable" but not necessarily "right", and that is the type of dilemma that GRRM consistently poses for us in the books. Thematically, it is the exact reverse of Jaime the "Kingslayer" - people may agree that he was "right" to kill the mad tyrant Aerys, but they still condemn him for breaking his KG oath and not being "honourable". In fact, the TV show makes this symmetry even more pronounced, because TV Robb clearly has more time to think about his relationship withTalisa, and more time to make a considered decision, just as aime obviously had plenty of time and opportunity to kill Aerys before he did so.

I don't find TV Robb to be inconsistent at all. It is obviously inconsistent with the way some book readers view him as portrayed on TV, but surely the fact that a character can be read in various ways is the mark of a well-written character. I look at TV Robb as a young man struggling very hard to meet so many enormous adult responsibilities, being brought down by the fact that he IS a young man, who behaves in a way that is entirely natural and consistent with being the age he is on TV, and who is ultimately and tragically brought down by trying to be "honourable".

I don't think Robb is a teenage boy in the show. If Joffrey is 17, how could anyone possible believe that Robb is around his age? And it is inconsistent from the books. In the books, Robb was grievously injured and being tended to by a beautiful woman. When he returned to her, he was back to business and could barely focus on Jeyne due to being overwhelmed by the war. In the tv show, the main focus is Jeyne/Talisa and the afterthought is the war. He is acting like an ass while perfectly healthy and surrounded by all of his men, and his men (even Karstark) seem to be noticing his distraction by Talisa and are infuriated it. I have a hard time believing that book Robb in TV Robb's situation would be going on strolls with some chick and spending so much time with her in all of this chaos. It's one thing if he just spotted a hot girl and got it on, but he appears to be "falling in love" or whatever and breaking his marriage pact while surrounded by all of these people. It doesn't make any sense. Also, book Robb was most likely a virgin and so was she, so that changes things. No one will believe that they are virgins in the show or 15 year olds. As grown adult nobles in Westeros, they should have a better understanding of the importance of honoring pacts and being a little bit more "mature" and logical about the situation.

There are plenty of ways to make a grown man break his pact, but this story just feels contrived to me and totally out of character of Robb. I bought it more in the books because Robb was a lot younger and injured. He was not in his normal state of mind. They need to adjust for a more adult Robb, because even though I think it's unintentional of the writers, they are making him look like an asshole to viewers (*especially* to readers, because we have a better understanding of what is happening), not a lost fool in love.

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I think aside from all the other issues people have brought up with how Talisa/Jeyne is written, developing romance vs. tragic mistake, even the absence of the catalyst of Bran/Rickon's death; ultimately, the story just isn't as cool if she's not the daughter of a Lannister bannerman. I do still have a smidgen of hope that we will find out she is Jeyne W. after all, but I'm losing faith, and for me, that was too important a part of the story to lose. It meant no one was ever quite sure, or is yet sure, the degree to which Tywin manipulated the situation - did he take advantage of it, or actually help set it up? It just gave the situation an extra level of misguidedness.

I think the TV show is trying to make his actions more understandable/justifiable, given those quotes from the Behind the Episode, but what I loved about the storyline is that his actions when it came to jeyne were a mistake and clearly presented as such. Jaime says that he won the war on the battlefield and lost it in the bedroom. Robb knows he screwed up, we see it in that quote about "why would anyone ever want to be a king?" I like that. He made a mistake, a very human one, but that doesn't mean the response by the Freys wasn't despicable. The price he paid was too high and very unfair. I feel the story on the TV show is losing these layers of complexity and it's a bummer, because I loved them in the book.

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I think aside from all the other issues people have brought up with how Talisa/Jeyne is written, developing romance vs. tragic mistake, even the absence of the catalyst of Bran/Rickon's death; ultimately, the story just isn't as cool if she's not the daughter of a Lannister bannerman. I do still have a smidgen of hope that we will find out she is Jeyne W. after all, but I'm losing faith, and for me, that was too important a part of the story to lose. It meant no one was ever quite sure, or is yet sure, the degree to which Tywin manipulated the situation - did he take advantage of it, or actually help set it up? It just gave the situation an extra level of misguidedness.

I think the TV show is trying to make his actions more understandable/justifiable, given those quotes from the Behind the Episode, but what I loved about the storyline is that his actions when it came to jeyne were a mistake and clearly presented as such. Jaime says that he won the war on the battlefield and lost it in the bedroom. Robb knows he screwed up, we see it in that quote about "why would anyone ever want to be a king?" I like that. He made a mistake, a very human one, but that doesn't mean the response by the Freys wasn't despicable. The price he paid was too high and very unfair. I feel the story on the TV show is losing these layers of complexity and it's a bummer, because I loved them in the book.

I've posted this before, but in an interview Oona Chaplin hints that her character "Talisa" actually isn't who she says she is. There will be a twist in this plot, i'm sure of it.

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I've posted this before, but in an interview Oona Chaplin hints that her character "Talisa" actually isn't who she says she is. There will be a twist in this plot, i'm sure of it.

I really hope you're right. Even if there wasn't going to be, I think it is not too late to add one in now, since presumably they are still working on scripts for season 3.

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I don't believe the show has ruined Robb's character at all. The books don't go into much if any detail about Jeyne and Robb's relationship, or even what is going on in Robb's head. A lot of the readers seem to presume to know what Robb's feeling and thinking in the Novel. To me I always envisioned Robb, hormones raging, fell for some beautiful girl in a similar way he has in the show. Do we expect more from him? One thing I do believe we know is young men, even kings and Starks, tend to fall to the vices of flesh. Even though he has fallen for Talisa, I'm sure he still plans to carry out his duty to the Frey girl despite his misgivings. That is until he gets her pregnant.

I fail to see the major deviation from the novel.

Thank you, thank you! I meant to quote you in my last post :) So many people condemning the way TV Robb is portrayed can only presume to know what Book Robb was thinking, because we never get his POV at all. So why is THEIR interpretation of Robb's character and what he supposedly thought or considered in the book, any more valid that the version of Robb shown by the TV writers?

It's not that we don't get a 'complex' Robb on TV. Rather, the writers have chosen to portray aspects of his character and kingship that are only hinted at or briefly referred to in the books, such as his care for his men, the issues of managing a large army and deal with so many bannermen. We do see a complex young man, but it seems that many book purists are so determined that 'their Robb' is the only right one, because they know what he was thinking and feeling, that they don't actually appreciate what is being shown to them.

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I've posted this before, but in an interview Oona Chaplin hints that her character "Talisa" actually isn't who she says she is. There will be a twist in this plot, i'm sure of it.

Maybe, but depending on when this twist develops the result can either be drastically different from the book or an incredibly stupid fall into line. Given the state of the current cockup different from books might be best this time.

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i only think that the spying Tullisa 007 that really falls for Robb would be a major jawdrop for all of us as the book only hinted that some of her family might have ploted with Tywin

yet it wold be a cheap cliche done and overdone in many TV series/movies

i understood that in the TV series he will break his betrothal as a rebellious act in the aftermath of his mother apparent betrayal not as a honor gesture towards his first (and only) maid

so his act is not from honor as much as from pure selfishness or as D&D might call it pure love

so this isnt a nedd-esque choice but a self absorbed bratt trying to get back as his mother (and late father) hypocrisy or honour dilemma

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Funny Robert Baratheon helped create Edric Storm on the same evening that his brother Stannis was getting married, and even then he did not marry I forget what her name is, but further emphasizes the importance of honor when it comes to Starks as opposed to other families.

Wasn’t it Selyse’s sister? That makes Edric and Shireen double first cousins.

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Isn't it obvious to everyone here that Roose reveals to Robb that Talisa is not actually who she says she is? Thus bring Catelyn back into the fold? Thus throwing a supposed wrench in Robb's plans with Talisa? Thus creating doubt but only making their trivial love even stronger? Yeah, it's going to be that cliche. I mean, c'mon, we can see it from a mile away. Look at the left while we bash you with the right.

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Having sex with person X while engaged to person Y is not the same as no longer going to marry person Y. Ask Loras.

having sex with both X and Y at the same time like Loras Renly and Margery would have been epic

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In most of the Robb/Talisa scenes I just tune them out and focus on the awesomeness of Roose Bolton

Agreed. For me, that one look Roose Bolton gives Rob when Talissa comes to visit him, just before he walks away and throws his cloak over his shoulder has completely redeemed the whole Rob/Talissa storyline, which I consider to be quite cringeworthy and weak. The Roose Bolton actor is really good.

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HBO-Robb is, IMHO, so much more interesting than Book-Robb. This is not surprising. We are not given Rob POVs in the books. As a result see him as a younger version of Ned who blunderously marries Jeyne after a single night of sex, all in the name of honor. At no point does passion, love, or desire enter into this. Robb sacrifices one point of honor (i.e., his commitment to the Freys) for another point of honor (i.e., sleeping with poor Jeyne). Am I the only reader who found this scenario implausible, unconvincing, and boring? No wonder it happens off-stage when Robb is away from his mother. Kat would have put a stop to it right away. Book-Rob would never have stood against her on a minor point of honor like this.

I find it much more human and realistic to think of Robb allowing himself to forget his duty and fall in love with Talisa. If Robb is going to put the entire war at risk, he at least ought to do it for a very human need and madness with which we can all sympathize. Up to this point Robb's has had to submit to history. It's all been pre-determined, including and most especially the betrothal to the Frey daughter. Robb has embraced his destiny as King of the North and has become a man of power. But what of his own needs and desires?

Once the screen writers decided to develop Robb's character, which was the right decision and which will give the Red Wedding even greater emotional impact on the viewers, they then had to judge whether retaining Martin's characterization of Robb would maintain viewer interest. I believe they made a good decision to alter Robb's character and bring more drama, life, and strength into his life. HBO-Robb will marry Talisa, despite the objections of his mother and bannermen. It may be a terrible blunder ... but it's a classic and human blunder.

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Easier to understand, perhaps, but I feel it changes him from a hero king who loses everything due to a fatal moment of weakness in an extreme situation to someone who never had the strength of character to be a king in the first place. Maybe that's more typical, and closer to the typical person, but that doesn't mean the other scenario is implausible or inhuman.

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