Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Morrigan

[Book spoilers] They ruined Robb Stark

Recommended Posts

Funny Robert Baratheon helped create Edric Storm on the same evening that his brother Stannis was getting married, and even then he did not marry I forget what her name is, but further emphasizes the importance of honor when it comes to Starks as opposed to other families.

That would probably have been hard for Robert to do since he was most likely already married to Cersei by then.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That would probably have been hard for Robert to do since he was most likely already married to Cersei by then.

If the Targaryens could do it...

Maybe that's what Robb should have done. Jeyne AND a Frey.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Easier to understand, perhaps, but I feel it changes him from a hero king who loses everything due to a fatal moment of weakness in an extreme situation to someone who never had the strength of character to be a king in the first place. Maybe that's more typical, and closer to the typical person, but that doesn't mean the other scenario is implausible or inhuman.

Yes, it does change him. It makes him real. It makes him human. There are no hero kings. There is nothing plausible about a boy-king who sacrifices everything on a minor point of honor, a mistake he would never have made if his Mom had been around. This is not tragedy. This is not drama. It's silliness (and a real flaw in Martin's story-telling). But there is nothing more human and real and tragic than a king, or prince, who risks everything because of love.

The HBO writers have improved Rob. They have made him interesting. They have made his story interesting. And if Talisa turns out to be an agent of Tywin Lannister ... oh how much more tragic and poignant will be the Red Wedding!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, it does change him. It makes him real. It makes him human. There are no hero kings. There is nothing plausible about a boy-king who sacrifices everything on a minor point of honor, a mistake he would never have made if his Mom had been around. This is not tragedy. This is not drama. It's silliness (and a real flaw in Martin's story-telling). But there is nothing more human and real and tragic than a king, or prince, who risks everything because of love.

The HBO writers have improved Rob. They have made him interesting. They have made his story interesting. And if Talisa turns out to be an agent of Tywin Lannister ... oh how much more tragic and poignant will be the Red Wedding!

actually he lives in a world where love is on the second level when it comes to marriage

all of the marriages in he books are planned/arranged ones no one of the nobles marries for love

Cat/Nedd marriage is even weirder as she was going to marry Brandon not Ned and she is quite unimmpressed by Ned at first as he was a shy geek but he boned her on their weeding night so they got Robb and that sealed the Riverrun Eyrie Winterfell alliance (of course JA and Lysa also) against the iron throne

Cersei / Robert nothing to add here as it is the crapiest marraige ever she does her brother and has his childs not her husbands and Robert is making the 8 with the whole westeros feminine population trying to beat Walder Frey bastards records, not to mention she kills him by boar proxy (probably she did the boar for that)

Lysa / Jon Aryn nothing to add crappy arranged marriage

Margerry / Renly Baratheon - slut / gay marriage

Margerry/ Jeoff - slut/dead man marriage

Khal Drogo / Danny - Beauty and the beast Essos version

Robb / Jayne (tulissa) - love marriage - everybody in westeros goes double face palm

real flaw off GRRM that D&D repaired?

WTF did i just read?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

maybe i exagerated a bit as she married two kings and both are dead

she may not be a cersei kind of slut as we dont know who she has done in the past as she is not a maidden anymore but she might be the black widow

run Tommen run away

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Robb / Jayne (tulissa) - love marriage - everybody in westeros goes double face palm

Some of the nobles do marry for love: Doran and his wife, Tywin and Joanna, some of the Targaryans in the past etc. However all those marriages (apart from Jenny of Oldstones and Prince Duncan the Small) were with other suitable noble partners, I think. Prince Duncan marries a commoner and is struck off the line of sucsession for it. There are consequences to marrying for love to an inappropriate person in these books.

He was a King, who had already made a marriage pact and had more responsibilities than the average Lord (he was the one who called the Banners in the first place) because he had a duty to his bannermen as much as they had an oath of loyalty to them. To mess it up because of dishonouring a noble girl (with the full weight of her family right there to call him out on his actions) is one thing, but to marry a random girl for love, is suicidally stupid. Honour men can understand, selfish stupidity not so much.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yes, it does change him. It makes him real. It makes him human. There are no hero kings. There is nothing plausible about a boy-king who sacrifices everything on a minor point of honor, a mistake he would never have made if his Mom had been around. This is not tragedy. This is not drama. It's silliness (and a real flaw in Martin's story-telling). But there is nothing more human and real and tragic than a king, or prince, who risks everything because of love. The HBO writers have improved Rob. They have made him interesting. They have made his story interesting. And if Talisa turns out to be an agent of Tywin Lannister ... oh how much more tragic and poignant will be the Red Wedding!

Risking all for love may be a good story and used by hollywood over and over but it is anything but real which is what the series is about. Look into medieval history there is not one instance of a king or prince risking everything for love. If you look in Westeros you don't find any either. Doran and Tywin may have loved who they married but even if they did chose them there is no evidence they risked anything, let alone their lives and power for their marriage.

Humans have complex emotions that conflict and effect us in various ways. Robb was in a place of great confusion, grief, loneliness at the top, fear, physical pain through injury, lust, anger and remorse. He wants to behave as his father would whilst learning from his mistakes. These emotions colour his actions and to simplify all this to him acting on love is tragically selling the character short, the story short and making the story completely unrealistic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

<p>For the show runners to have such utter misconceptions about key characters is truly off-putting.

Robb would have never done what he did if not for grief over his brothers deaths.

Catelyn would have never done what she did if not for grief over her sons deaths.

The only explanation I can come up with is that Talisa is in fact, sent by Tywin, and they didn't want it to look like dumb luck for Tywin that Talisa was just around when Robb was grieving - they wanted Talisa to actively seduce Robb so he breaks his promise to the Freys as a prelude to the RW.

I don't like this notion at all, and even more so if Talisa is really the person she pretends to be, and they make a cheap love story out of it. A grieving boy being "comforted" by an agent of Tywin and feeling honor-bound to marry her is a lot more dramatic (and fitting for Game of Thrones) than another Hollywood love story - especially when the reason for Robbs/Cats grief already happened on the show.

Making little changes for the sake of keeping the show interesting for readers is fine with me, but if those huge character changes continue, I'll seriously consider dropping the show. They piss off readers with such changes, and they confuse non-readers with a completely broken pacing - so many scenes around Tywin and Arya when the Harrenhal plot dissolves into a big pile of nothing, while the plot continues in a few scenes in between.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
maybe i exagerated a bit as she married two kings and both are dead she may not be a cersei kind of slut as we dont know who she has done in the past as she is not a maidden anymore but she might be the black widow run Tommen run away

She only killed one king, and would you have wanted to marry Joff? If Margaery is a slut, so is every character in Westros.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tywinn did not married from love just as Cat and Ned, Danny and Drogo they started love after the marriage

i know Tywin is a hypocrit as he will do Shae but i think the Tyrion first marriage is an example of how Tywin regards love over rank weddings and what happened to Tysha

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While your gripes are well founded, and I agree with much of your discontent, those details don't change the overall events to the viewer: Robb broke his vows, Cat released Jaimie to try and free her remaining children.

I've found that the only way to enjoy the show is to let it be a bit of it's own thing. As long as they don't change major events, I can still enjoy it.

That said I do agree that the GRMM story line in all cases has been better story telling. However, if the show needs to hollywood-ize or simplify to satisfy the TV audience, I'll accept it rather than see the show run for 3 seasons only because viewers are lost or bored.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

probably some season 3 event involving the Freys Boltons and Starks might get an early cancellation of the show after milions of tv sets around the world (even LCD /LED ones) will be destroyed by furious Unsullied

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I find it much more human and realistic to think of Robb allowing himself to forget his duty and fall in love with Talisa. If Robb is going to put the entire war at risk, he at least ought to do it for a very human need and madness with which we can all sympathize.

No. The whole point is that Robb ought not to do it for basic human lust because of the responsibilities placed upon him because of his title and his lineage.

Also, the book version of events gives us a far greater reason to sympathise with Robb. Namely that his brothers had been killed by a man he believed was one of his closest friends. We also I imagine sympathise and respect his decision not to leave Jeyne deflowered and in a position of being a woman who slept with the enemy.

Whereas HBO Robb has been set up for the audience to empathise with (as I'm sure that in all our lives we have been in a position where urges have perhaps been the more attractive but less honourable option), creating a somewhat subtle but at the same time substantial difference. The point is, we are not meant to empathise with Robb for the most part. Robb is the newly appointed 17 year old king of a fractured feudal society, a society which places huge importance upon family, history and for lack of a better word "purity". We cannot empathise with Robb IMO.

As such, the decision is stylistic. I may be overanalysing this, but IMO the audience is treated with better respect when we are left to sympathise with Robb as opposed to empathise. It weakens Robb's character.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some people don't think this was a major book change; that it didn't really change the "overall plot..." well, what is the overall plot, anyway? It's a bunch of plots all weaved together, revolving around who rules Westeros and the Others. I think changing Robb Stark's behavior to this much of a degree and in part changing Jeyne so much can definitely be considered a major deviation from the book, and not for the better. Robb isn't a poor 15 year old that is injured and being taken care of by a lovely young maiden who he deflowered and decides to do what's in his opinion, the "honorable thing." TV Robb is just a healthy grown man wandering around camp with this random girl that's infuriating everyone because he's spending all of his time with her and the war is now an afterthought. I would say that's a *major* book deviation. And he DIES next season, so there really is no wiggle room here for redemption or change or anything. He is stuck with this annoying girl in a cliche, cheesy, uncharacteristic storyline pretty much up until his death now. Another entire season of Talisa/Robb....awesome! It's really annoying when this was seriously one of the biggest things I was looking forward to this season, and it's turned into a nightmare.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It's really annoying when this was seriously one of the biggest things I was looking forward to this season, and it's turned into a nightmare.

me too. the argument that the deviation doesn't matter because it get's us to the same place holds no water. because it doesn't matter how big of a deviation it is, it matters how good it is. i don't care if people can come up with logic to attribute to show/robb. what we have seen hasn't been interesting to watch(and partially because of the cliffnotes version of events that has permeated season 2, a deeper understanding of his attraction might have made this plotline work). and for the purposes of the show, that's a much bigger problem

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are so many inconsistencies with both characters that i do not understand those who try to say this is better story telling compared to the books.

One thing is to say that it still looks good and it still is good tv. No one will go against that I think. The show is still quite enjoyable. But please.....it kills me to see some people who say things like "this is better" or that GRRM was the one who made the mistake.

People....look at Robb from the show:

- Look at how he reacts to Theon when they are discussing if the north should go to war: does that look like someone who will take it well to be questioned? nope!

- Look at Robb when the great John questions his decisions: does that look like someone who will tolerate any complains or alternative plans? nope!

- Look at Robb when his mother tries to tell him she wants to go home and Theon should not be sent to the Iron islands. Does Robb seems to enjoy this? Does he take any advice from his mother? nope!

Now please tell us why the hell would someone like this enjoy a girl questioning him in an open field and close to some of his soldiers / lords???

And now we have the girl:

- First she is introduced as a nurse that roams around the batlefield and has some sort of issue against war and against Robb invading the Westerlands.....if she is foreign, what does she care about the westerlands? And if she is a foreign nurse, why does she take one side of the conflict over the other? Or are we to believe that she did the same complaints to Tywin or to Gregor Clegane? now that would have been fun!!!

- Next episode she is writting some letters all alone in Robb´s camp. Why is she staying with Robb´s army? On the previous episode it looked like she had just left and she did not want to work for the north so why is she with them now? Did they arrest her or keep her there against her will??? Did she decide to change sides in the meanwhile? Why? She did not seem like she wanted to change sides the first time we did meet her. And by the way, she is now quite a bit less sassy in general. And again, what is she doing all alone with the northern army? Who protects her? Who keeps her safe, gives her food and stops her from being rapped? Is it Robb? Why would he????

- Then we go another episode and now she has a position in which she can ask Robb for supplies??????? Is she now the main nurse and responsible for that kind of stuff????? Since when???? How did she get that kind of position? Is she such a good nurse that Robb decided to take her and make her like the army´s "maester"? Dont they have the silent sisters who should really be doing that kind of work? Can anyone explain why a military leader would pick a foreigner who clearly said she was playing for the other side and take this lady to lead your medical services for your army???? Why does she even trust her asking for provisions???? That could be really dangerous if she ends up being a turncoat and how does he know she isnt? Ahhh.....and it is still weird how she can be all alone and safe toying around a foreign army.....yeahhhh.

- And finally we have kind of confirmation that the girl seems to be really a foreigner and she is all sweet and bla bla bla she loves her brother and bla bla bla......well.....what is she doing so far away from her brother then??? And I dont buy it that she cant live on a slaver city...well, cant she complain about that to her brother and family thus trying to solve the slave problem there? How is she doing anything good for the slaves by running away to take care of SOLDIERS????? You would expect someone like her would be more like a village nurse and not a field army nurse......or she should be a slave nurse back home taking care of the slaves and doing her best to help them live better.

And now, just try and place this noble girl going all out on a foreign king which she gets to know is already engaged.....she even gets to know that the engagement is quite important. Besides, she is supposed to be against the very thing he represents which is a leader who is going to war over something she does not understand...or at least that was her mindset 3 episodes ago...i guess it doesnt matter anymore. You see....the only way for all of this to fit together is if she is just another spoiled brat that just does whatever she feels like on the spot without that much inner tought about it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not to mention that the king bannermen call her very gently as the "foreign bitch"

The thing we dont understand is the fact that DD are "improving" the story and modernising it with this fiesty florence bonesaw

Exactly what GRRM dislikes about fantasies

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
me too. the argument that the deviation doesn't matter because it get's us to the same place holds no water. because it doesn't matter how big of a deviation it is, it matters how good it is. i don't care if people can come up with logic to attribute to show/robb. what we have seen hasn't been interesting to watch(and partially because of the cliffnotes version of events that has permeated season 2, a deeper understanding of his attraction might have made this plotline work). and for the purposes of the show, that's a much bigger problem

I agree that what matters is not whether the show has deviated from the book but whether the show, viewed and appreciated on its own terms, is interesting and enjoyable. And here, I strongly believe, HBO-Robb possesses greater depth than Book-Robb. The simple fact is, we really don't know much about Book-Robb. He does not have a single POV. We see him principally through the eyes of his mother. Through those eyes we see him as a younger version of Ned--and it is precisely for that reason we readers are so fond of him. We want Ned to live on in his son, just as Catelyn does.

But then the boy makes a mistake. At a time of emotional vulnerability (he is injured and has just heard the news of the fall of Winterfell and the murders of his brothers) he has sex with girl Jeyne. Does he seduce her? Is he seduced by her? Was he a virgin? Was she a virgin? We don't know. And the very next day he marries her in the name of honor, even though this means breaking his promise to the Freys and putting his army and cause at great risk. When he explains all of this to his mother, he invokes love ("I know what it is to love so greatly you can think of nothing else"), but it rings hollow. He says the words to disarm Catelyn's anger and rebuke (recall, he has just "forgiven" his mother for releasing the Kingslayer). But we do not for a moment believe that this is a great love or even a great infatuation. "It was the only honorable thing to do," he explains. "She's gentle and sweet, mother, she will make me a good wife." And that's that. After then it's just damage control. There's no drama here, no great struggle and inner conflict.

Okay, this works in the book. It works because Robb is a minor character. His story for the most part happens off-stage. We are excluded from his interior life. It doesn't matter why he made a "botch of everything." All that matters is that his boyish mistake sets up the Red Wedding.

But the HBO writers rightly realized that if the Red Wedding was to have its proper impact on TV viewers, they needed to make him into a more fully rounded and believable character. And so they made him a few years older and gave him his own internal struggles and vulnerabilities. In other words, they made him into a man. He is a man who is truly coming into his own. He is coming into his power, as evidenced not only by his military victories and the respect given to him by his bannerman but by his willingness to angrily confront his mother after her release of Jaime and put her under house arrest. Wasn't that so much more dramatically satisfying than the way it plays out in the book?

It will be interesting to see what will happen with Robb and Talisa in the episodes to come. Why does he marry Talisa (as I assume that he will)? For honor or love? Don't just dismiss this as lust. Clearly it's more than that for Robb. And if Talisa is an agent for the Lannisters, as some are speculating, consider the power of this betrayal. I will almost be disappointed if Talisa does not turn out to be Tywin's spy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×