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Morrigan

[Book spoilers] They ruined Robb Stark

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If tullisa is a 007 that really falls for her victim im out of here

All strider said wold work in a chick flick adventure movie as i can see mr and mrs jones screenplay in it

But not with me as its just so cheesy and modern age cliche in westeros there isnt a moderen day equality in rights, a noble isnt equal with a lowbirth and as GRRM keeps mentioning in the books lowbirhs are almost invisible in the nobles eyes they dont exist they just serve or bother them

A nobody girl challenging a king and not being raped, beaten then kept as a soldiers wench

In your dreams D&D a king will marry a nobody from volantis for love

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I agree that what matters is not whether the show has deviated from the book but whether the show, viewed and appreciated on its own terms, is interesting and enjoyable. And here, I strongly believe, HBO-Robb possesses greater depth than Book-Robb. The simple fact is, we really don't know much about Book-Robb. He does not have a single POV. We see him principally through the eyes of his mother. Through those eyes we see him as a younger version of Ned--and it is precisely for that reason we readers are so fond of him. We want Ned to live on in his son, just as Catelyn does. But then the boy makes a mistake. At a time of emotional vulnerability (he is injured and has just heard the news of the fall of Winterfell and the murders of his brothers) he has sex with girl Jeyne. Does he seduce her? Is he seduced by her? Was he a virgin? Was she a virgin? We don't know. And the very next day he marries her in the name of honor, even though this means breaking his promise to the Freys and putting his army and cause at great risk. When he explains all of this to his mother, he invokes love ("I know what it is to love so greatly you can think of nothing else"), but it rings hollow. He says the words to disarm Catelyn's anger and rebuke (recall, he has just "forgiven" his mother for releasing the Kingslayer). But we do not for a moment believe that this is a great love or even a great infatuation. "It was the only honorable thing to do," he explains. "She's gentle and sweet, mother, she will make me a good wife." And that's that. After then it's just damage control. There's no drama here, no great struggle and inner conflict. Okay, this works in the book. It works because Robb is a minor character. His story for the most part happens off-stage. We are excluded from his interior life. It doesn't matter why he made a "botch of everything." All that matters is that his boyish mistake sets up the Red Wedding. But the HBO writers rightly realized that if the Red Wedding was to have its proper impact on TV viewers, they needed to make him into a more fully rounded and believable character. And so they made him a few years older and gave him his own internal struggles and vulnerabilities. In other words, they made him into a man. He is a man who is truly coming into his own. He is coming into his power, as evidenced not only by his military victories and the respect given to him by his bannerman but by his willingness to angrily confront his mother after her release of Jaime and put her under house arrest. Wasn't that so much more dramatically satisfying than the way it plays out in the book? It will be interesting to see what will happen with Robb and Talisa in the episodes to come. Why does he marry Talisa (as I assume that he will)? For honor or love? Don't just dismiss this as lust. Clearly it's more than that for Robb. And if Talisa is an agent for the Lannisters, as some are speculating, consider the power of this betrayal. I will almost be disappointed if Talisa does not turn out to be Tywin's spy.

No it was not dramatically satisfying at all. Because it is soooooo cliche. A boy king doubting his authority and then showing it! nothing could be more cliched in that situatin. And it does not fit in at all with the medieval society that is GRRMs world.

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/size

Man you must be smoking some good shit to be able read so much into a mediocre and cheesy story :P

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I really don't think the TV version is all that bad. In fact, for the media, it seems to be better at explaining what the ramifications of him not marrying a Frey may be. He essentially was marrying a Frey for a bridge that he didn't think was worth the marriage. It simplifies Rob's betrayal of the Freys and so far Talissa is a much more interesting character than Jayne ever was.

One thing that makes me suspicious that Talissa may actually be Jayne Westerling though, is how Lord Bolton and her exchanged glances, almost as if her seduction of Rob were a conspiracy.

She could be playing the ruse as a Volatian noble, when she is actually half Volantian and half Westerling, as in the books.

She might not "think her father is the greatest man on earth", because as a Lannister bannerman he put her up to the task of seducing Rob Stark.

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People keep calling this change cheesy and cliche. Remind me again how it is more cheesy and cliche than what Rob did in the books?

Basically, he's still into the idea marrying for love/lust and calling it honorable to do so. He isn't not marrying a Frey because he doesn't want to marry a Frey, we know that much. Whoever she Talissa really is, she is of noble blood, whether Westerland or Volantian,

Both plots are cheesy love stories. People are just raging on this because they don't like change. I sort of like small differences that result in basic overall same outcomes.

This, like the changes in Quarth, I find make the show more interesting than boring parts of the book.

The only thing that will upset me is no Red Wedding or House of undying scene.

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People keep calling this change cheesy and cliche. Remind me again how it is more cheesy and cliche than what Rob did in the books?

Basically, he's still into the idea marrying for love/lust and calling it honorable to do so. He isn't not marrying a Frey because he doesn't want to marry a Frey, we know that much. Whoever she Talissa really is, she is of noble blood, whether Westerland or Volantian,

Both plots are cheesy love stories. People are just raging on this because they don't like change. I sort of like small differences that result in basic overall same outcomes.

This, like the changes in Quarth, I find make the show more interesting than boring parts of the book.

The only thing that will upset me is no Red Wedding or House of undying scene.

I will remind you again:

- the book story was possible, maybe not that easy to happen but it was possible.

- the show story is impossible unless something is really messed up with the whole world.

So, the book story is maybe a bit cheesy. The show story is 100% cheesy simply because it depicts things that are not at even plausible in the world.

Again:

In the book Robb was weak, is was being taken care at the Cragg and by a sweet and shy girl. You probably know nothing about being in pain and having a really nice nurse taking care of you. But you probably know that the nurse thing is still a big big fantasy even in this day and age and i could take the time to further explain why. Make it simple, there is a lot of sexual charge when you are helpless and being taken care off by someone young and nice looking. It is believable! Then things happen and Robb kind of really feels sorry for Jeyne do to her being so sweet and shy. She is totally screwed if he doesnt marry her and do to her personality, Robb really feels pitty....it fits!!! You will pitty someone who is really sweet and shy, it´s also almost unavoidable. You will feel moved and want to help someone like that.

Now in the show, we have a girl that should not be there in the first place, that should not be allowed to be with Robb, that should not be able to go around free and happy in an army camp in that day and age (remember she was an enemy nurse and she doesnt bellong to the official red cross (silent sisters). So...she is 100% impossible. She could not be there, she would not be allowed to be there and she would not remain there if she had the choice.

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The book story isn't cheesy at all, because we don't ever see it. Everything from Robb first meeting Jeyne to sleeping with her to marrying her to bringing her out of the Crag is off camera. How can it be cheesy? How can it be corny? It's not actually there to be anything.

It's all presented to us as fait accompli in Catelyn's second chapter. That's it really. There's no sugary, sappy romance, no meet-cute, no nothing -- it's not there for us to see. What's important to the narrative is not the meet-cute, it's the aftermath of what they do, and that's what the narrative focuses on. As I believe was the correct course.

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The book story isn't cheesy at all, because we don't ever see it. Everything from Robb first meeting Jeyne to sleeping with her to marrying her to bringing her out of the Crag is off camera. How can it be cheesy? How can it be corny? It's not actually there to be anything.

It's all presented to us as fait accompli in Catelyn's second chapter. That's it really. There's no sugary, sappy romance, no meet-cute, no nothing -- it's not there for us to see. What's important to the narrative is not the meet-cute, it's the aftermath of what they do, and that's what the narrative focuses on. As I believe was the correct course.

I will argue about that ;)

There are pages and pages of theories about the "promiss me Nedd" and this should be a really nice example that you can still create and tell a lot "under the table". We are told about Robb that he was wounded, that Jeyne took care of him. Robb is the one who tell´s that Jeyne is sweet and shy and will make for a good wife. So there is something there.

I think that people often just dismiss what is in the book because they were mad at it and did not want to see it like that. But something did happen in the books. There is something there ;) Like it or not!

Late Edit:

People, lets face it:

- Jeyne was more or less welcomed even by Cat who should be the most critic about her

- Robb seems to be quite active in trying to make an heir with Jeyne and they complain they cant spend much time together due to the war.....not even Nedd seems to have had complains about that in the past and he was allways a lot further away from Cat. There is a difference! Robb and Jeyne seem to really want to be together.

- There are Westerlings that seem to be really loyal to Robb and that can be seen as a sign that this is all a lot more then a family plot. Seems like at least some in the family think Jeyne really cares about Robb and they really care about both.

- There is some support for Jeyne among northerners. Even if they see her as their doom or part of their doom, they never really blame her (and it would be easy). Jeyne is never to blame for the northerners or it doesnt seem like. So she is clearly not disliked. In all, it seems Jeyne did look the part as Robb´s lady and queen. Seems a lot many people think she was and still is a good choice.

You see, there is actually a lot more about Jeyne in the books :)

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Like Ran said, we don't know if it was a cheesy romance in the books. However, I have never seen GRRM write cheesy romantic shit, so I think I can safely assume it wouldn't be like it is in the show. Love does not equate to cheesy. Cheesy romance is forced, contrived, terribly unconvincing and one-layered. I can be touched by a loving scene. I just saw a scene in The Sopranos that was based around love last night and it really was powerful. It was GOOD WRITING. This Robb/Talisa stuff is NOT.

If tullisa is a 007 that really falls for her victim im out of here

Yeah, I will be even more disgusted by this storyline, which I didn't even think was possible at this point.

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I want to point out (and this has been pointed out before) that in the world GRRM created, it is impossible for a high born woman to run around unescorted. It would simply not happen. That act alone would cause her to be seen with suspicision and as a potential victim. Look at the other high born women that travel extensively

Cat-escorted

Arya-hides as a commoner

Margaery-escorted

Brienne-Trained as a warrior

Asha-trained as a warrior

It simply does not happen for a high born woman to travel alone. They are protected. Because if they are not they are perceived as weak or not highborn. That escort that protection identifies them for what they are.

So we are asked to believe that a highborn lady(albeit from across the seas) travels to westeros unescorted? Simply not believable given the setting.

Perhaps she has escorts off screen, then why not present this is some capacity

Or she is not highborn, calling into question the whole relationship and Robbs pursuit of her

Or the writers have modernized her, which I say blech to.

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The book scene was better because it was simpler, and thus infinitely more believable.

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I want to point out (and this has been pointed out before) that in the world GRRM created, it is impossible for a high born woman to run around unescorted. It would simply not happen. That act alone would cause her to be seen with suspicision and as a potential victim. Look at the other high born women that travel extensively

Cat-escorted

Arya-hides as a commoner

Margaery-escorted

Brienne-Trained as a warrior

Asha-trained as a warrior

It simply does not happen for a high born woman to travel alone. They are protected. Because if they are not they are perceived as weak or not highborn. That escort that protection identifies them for what they are.

So we are asked to believe that a highborn lady(albeit from across the seas) travels to westeros unescorted? Simply not believable given the setting.

Perhaps she has escorts off screen, then why not present this is some capacity

Or she is not highborn, calling into question the whole relationship and Robbs pursuit of her

Or the writers have modernized her, which I say blech to.

It's possible that highborn ladies are treated and viewed differently in Volantine culture.

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I will remind you again:

- the book story was possible, maybe not that easy to happen but it was possible.

- the show story is impossible unless something is really messed up with the whole world.

How do you figure? A young man can't be turned on unless he's weak and vulnerable?

So, the book story is maybe a bit cheesy. The show story is 100% cheesy simply because it depicts things that are not at even plausible in the world.

Again:

In the book Robb was weak, is was being taken care at the Cragg and by a sweet and shy girl. You probably know nothing about being in pain and having a really nice nurse taking care of you. But you probably know that the nurse thing is still a big big fantasy even in this day and age and i could take the time to further explain why. Make it simple, there is a lot of sexual charge when you are helpless and being taken care off by someone young and nice looking. It is believable! Then things happen and Robb kind of really feels sorry for Jeyne do to her being so sweet and shy. She is totally screwed if he doesnt marry her and do to her personality, Robb really feels pitty....it fits!!! You will pitty someone who is really sweet and shy, it´s also almost unavoidable. You will feel moved and want to help someone like that.

Now in the show, we have a girl that should not be there in the first place, that should not be allowed to be with Robb, that should not be able to go around free and happy in an army camp in that day and age (remember she was an enemy nurse and she doesnt bellong to the official red cross (silent sisters). So...she is 100% impossible. She could not be there, she would not be allowed to be there and she would not remain there if she had the choice.

So the king of the north feels sorry for a girl he boned and that's the reason he marries her? Yeah, I find that to be both unrealistic and pathetic. He's wounded and depressed and the poor baby has sex with a hot nurse. Thank god the show didn't try to portray that cheese fest.

Having Robb actually fall for a girl is a better story and more believable story. Because here is what is actually true, when every day above ground could be your last men have a tendency not to worry about the repercussions of their actions. I don't know how many of you have seen action, but when men go to war with the possibility of death looming they tend to put vows on the back-burner. This happens much more frequently than a nurse and patient getting it on. I don't see it hard to imagine Rob getting it on with a pretty girl he has a crush on, low born or high.

Now I agree the show has failed to capture a strong love story adequately, but I guess that's what happen when you get medieval gurus trying to write love stories. Pure Cheese.

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Robb informed Cat of this situation the way most guys would talk to their moms about this - she got the sugarcoated version.

Teenage boys tend to sugarcoat things when they talk to their moms about girls! We don't know that he never told Jeyne in the books that 'he didn't want to marry the Frey girl.'

The important thing is the way the main characters feel towards each other.

In the book, he was grief stricken and wounded. he still gets mad at his mom for releasing Jaime, but it doesn't happen until later.

On TV, he was mad at his mom for releasing Jaime. His mom is also the one who negotiated the wedding contract with the Freys. He is mad at her for undermining his kingly authority and forcing him to marry a stranger. On TV, they will very soon find out about Bran and Rikkon, and it will be poignant and sad just like it was in the book.

So in the grand scheme of things, the dynamic is basically the same, Robb's motives and Cat's motives are the same, even though certain events are moved around for the purpose of condensing everything into 9 hours of airtime spread across 10 episodes.

What is abundantly clear to me is that the writers aren't making these choices haphazardly, or with no regard for the story. They probably know the books just as well as any of us, if not better. Like it, or don't like it - but understand adapting a story like this for an HBO series with time and budget restrictions is no small task. I don't think anyone here could do a better job of it!

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How do you figure? A young man can't be turned on unless he's weak and vulnerable?

That's not what was said...

So the king of the north feels sorry for a girl he boned and that's the reason he marries her? Yeah, I find that to be both unrealistic and pathetic. He's wounded and depressed and the poor baby has sex with a hot nurse. Thank god the show didn't try to portray that cheese fest.

Uh... what? Have you ever been wounded and lost two brothers at once? You think you wouldn't be vulnerable then? :rolleyes: "Poor baby", WTF is wrong with you people...

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Dont under estimate us as maybe we could do a better job

Tulisa / talissa is just a MASH bad episode she is so just out of this world

She is a foreigner from volantis yet aparently nobody really knows her

Come on she is allowed around the king when at war with no background check she could kill him just like that and nobody cares who she is

I think DD took jayne book story mixed it with mellisandre book attitude and the fact she is from asshai

As i said in another thread why did they choose volantis as noble family in Volantis have pure valyrian pedigree so they are almost similar to Daenerys & Visaerys with gold / silver hair

I know its nitpicky but why tash some important details about volantis when they could name some other city that allowed slavery

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Uh... what? Have you ever been wounded and lost two brothers at once? You think you wouldn't be vulnerable then? :rolleyes: "Poor baby", WTF is wrong with you people...

The point is that being vulnerable is not usually a cause or reason to have sex/fall for someone, at least for most men. But Cat uses this to rationalize why Robb would think with his pecker in the book.

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No they haven't. You're completely wrong.

Robb said he didn't want to marry the Frey girl. Not "I won't". That's entirely different.

He's not going back on his promise, at all. He's fallen in love with a girl he can so relate to and his desperate time of having so much pressure on him, he wants to have sex with her.

That does not mean he wants to have sex with her. Once he realizes what he's done and learns of B + R's death, he'll regret it. It's the same but with more of a twist to it. Robb's doing what he wants, not what he feels.

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What is abundantly clear to me is that the writers aren't making these choices haphazardly, or with no regard for the story. They probably know the books just as well as any of us, if not better. Like it, or don't like it - but understand adapting a story like this for an HBO series with time and budget restrictions is no small task. I don't think anyone here could do a better job of it!

I disagree on both points. I think the writers have no idea how to make this adaption into a cohesive story, so they are just pickings scenes from the books almost at random and making the rest up on the go.

And I also think that many other, including members on this forum, could do a better job of it, also within the time and monetary constraints of the current crew.

I don't see how some people seem to claim to like the books, while applauding when some tv writers constantly second-guess and wants to 'improve' the source material.

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