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Morrigan

[Book spoilers] They ruined Robb Stark

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If they had to change Robb and Jeyne's story, I think I may have thought of a way that could work. I'd like your guys thoughts, because it's kind of...edgy, I guess.

Robb takes the Crag, and meets Jeyne, the daughter of the Lord. He is attracted to her, and she him despite being his "prisoner." But when he gets word of Bran and Rickon's deaths, he loses his cool and orders his men to burn the castle before they march out. Jeyne gets hysterical about the destruction of her home and gives Robb shit. Robb, mad with grief and rage but also turned on by her, up and rapes her.

Well then, after the Red Wedding we could simply say "well done, Frey, he had it coming".

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No, as bad as the Robb Talisa story has been, it's infinitely better than Robb deciding to rape Jeyne and then marry her.

If you mean infinitely more boring, then yes you are quite right.

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Honestly, I think my version actually makes Robb more sympathetic. The rape would be a crime of pasison, committed during the worst day of his life, in a state where he doesn't really realize what he's doing. And afterwards he'd have to be a horrible person not to offer marriage, so his oathbreaking is more understandable. The way it goes down in the books, he throws away the war over a one-night stand. The way it goes in the show, well....blegh Anyway, I'm gonna go back to my Robb Stark the Serial Rapist fan-fiction now. Sorry I said anything

You really think Robb as a rapist makes him MORE sympathetic? Sorry, rape isn't a crime where you can use finding out about your dead brothers to get a pass. He'd have to be a horrible person not to offer marriage? Doesn't the rape make him a horrible person?

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Well then, after the Red Wedding we could simply say "well done, Frey, he had it coming".

he had it coming anyway. arrogant stupidity is as bad as wickedness when you are a war leader

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You really think Robb as a rapist makes him MORE sympathetic? Sorry, rape isn't a crime where you can use finding out about your dead brothers to get a pass. He'd have to be a horrible person not to offer marriage? Doesn't the rape make him a horrible person?

I guarantee you soldiers fighting for Robb raped and pillaged innocent people. And I also guarantee you he knew about this and didn't punish them, like every other Lord besides Stannis. It's a different time we're talking about here

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he had it coming anyway. arrogant stupidity is as bad as wickedness when you are a war leader

No one, to my knowledge, ever defended his decision to break his promise to Walder Frey. However the Red Wedding was disproportionate retribution. But it wouldn't feel that way, had the showrunners decided to turn Robb into a despicable little shit as per your scenario.

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I guarantee you soldiers fighting for Robb raped and pillaged innocent people. And I also guarantee you he knew about this and didn't punish them, like every other Lord besides Stannis. It's a different time we're talking about here

Doubtful Robb knew about it and did nothing. Even Jaime Lannister had one of his soldiers executed for trying to rape Pia. And just because it was a different time, that doesn't suddenly make people view rape any differently. Very few people with the exception of you would have much sympathy for Robb if he raped Jeyne, even if he did offer to marry her.

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I guarantee you soldiers fighting for Robb raped and pillaged innocent people. And I also guarantee you he knew about this and didn't punish them, like every other Lord besides Stannis. It's a different time we're talking about here

How can you even sit there and argue that Robb raping a girl, even in a fit of insanity, is going to make him more sympathetic? How is any rape justifiable? Especially for a character that is supposed to be popular? That is 100% insane.

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How can you even sit there and argue that Robb raping a girl, even in a fit of insanity, is going to make him more sympathetic? How is any rape justifiable? Especially for a character that is supposed to be popular? That is 100% insane.

Yea, because I was totally making the case that rape is justifiable. :bang:

And why should I care what all the fanboys and fangirls of TV Robb think? Most of the people who consider him a favorite might as well be on "Team Edward" - it's all about his looks and how dreamy he is, yadda yadda yadda. This wouldn't make him a better person, no argument there, but it would make him more interesting. And it would spare us the corny 21-st century romance superimposed on a medieval landscape

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I hate to tell you, he deliberately broke his vows in the book as well. Unless you are insinuating that Jeyne Westerling raped him?

Thank you for setting the OP straight. In no way whatsoever has Robb Stark been ruined. Joke.

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Of course not. By "deliberate" I mean that he planned on it without so much as a hint of guilt or a second thought. Book-Robb broke his vow because he felt honour-bound to marry Jeyne after sleeping with her in a moment of particular weakness. He feels like shit about it, admits it was a huge mistake, etc. TV-Robb doesn't give a shit, he's not vulnerable due to grief or a wound, he just says he doesn't wanna marry the Frey girl and that's it. He looks like a petulant little kid, not the Stark man who stoically accepted his fate as Lord of Winterfell.

He hasn't broken any vows yet. He could screw half the women in Westeros before he marries the Frey girl and the remaining half after and not break his vow as long as he marries the Frey girl.

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You really think Robb as a rapist makes him MORE sympathetic? Sorry, rape isn't a crime where you can use finding out about your dead brothers to get a pass. He'd have to be a horrible person not to offer marriage? Doesn't the rape make him a horrible person?

Well it could help them crack into the Taliban market share.

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Why are we even having this discussion about rape? Robb Starke would never do that.....

And even if HBORobb Starke did it would totally destroy the character and go against everything his father and mother taught him....

Lets get back to reality. The show jumped the sharked with this episoe (if they hadn't already). Catelyn freeing Jaime was an absolute atrocity.....

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The absolute biggest problem with this show extends far beyond Robb and his romance. It works. He likes her. She likes him. They are young. It happens. One of the wonderful things about Martin's world is that everything is gray -- Robb makes a mistake and pays dearly for it. Could he have avoided it? Was he right in his decision?

And I think the show has improved vastly from what was the almost show ending episode five. Yikes.

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I am just dumbfounded that people have such a problem with this. If anything, in the books, it's like "Isn't Robb way more important than the screentime he's given?"

At the end of the day, it's not that important who Robb marries whether it's Jeyne Westerling or someone from Volantis. It's the fact that he broke his pact w/ Lord Frey. And can you imagine Dave and Dan trying to tell but not show this whole thing and then producing the Red Wedding out of nowhere?

I'm all for people bitching about changes or changes that are totally unnecessary (Jaime killing Alton), but this change has made sense on every level to me.

The only worry I have is if people will stop watching after the Red Wedding because this brilliant setup will make it even more painful than it was in the books.

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HBO-Robb didn't break any vow. Maybe in a future episode he will marry Talisa/Jeyne, but until then no harm done
He hasn't broken any vows yet. He could screw half the women in Westeros before he marries the Frey girl and the remaining half after and not break his vow as long as he marries the Frey girl.

Uhhh and just what do you think will happen? That he won't marry Talisa and will marry a Frey? I don't get your argument. Just because it hasn't happened yet, even though we KNOW it will happen, means my criticism is invalid? Wat.

Honestly, I think my version actually makes Robb more sympathetic.

...You think Robb committing a rape instead of just falling in love will make him "more sympathetic".

Okay, at this point I don't care if the mods yell at me or suspend me, because I have to say it: you're either a troll or a fucking idiot.

Why are we even having this discussion about rape?

Good question. A thread derail, really.

I am just dumbfounded that people have such a problem with this. [...] And can you imagine Dave and Dan trying to tell but not show this whole thing and then producing the Red Wedding out of nowhere?

Say. Did you even read the OP? Like, the VERY FIRST LINE? Honestly now.

Obviously not, otherwise you'd realize that people have a problem with bad writing and not with the mere principle of showing Robb having a relationship on-screen. Jesus...

I'm all for people bitching about changes or changes that are totally unnecessary (Jaime killing Alton),

And how is this made up story that differs from the book version "necessary"? They could have shown him get wounded, get tended to by a young woman, see him grieve for his brothers yadda yadda. Ah, but you like this change, so it's "necessary", whereas a change you dislike (Jaime killing his cousin) is "unnecessary". We call this fallacy, "special pleading". Look it up.

The only worry I have is if people will stop watching after the Red Wedding because this brilliant setup will make it even more painful than it was in the books.
lol, "brilliant setup".... Hollywood Romance 101 = brilliance. Yay.

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Say. Did you even read the OP? Like, the VERY FIRST LINE? Honestly now. Obviously not, otherwise you'd realize that people have a problem with bad writing and not with the mere principle of showing Robb having a relationship on-screen. Jesus... And how is this made up story that differs from the book version "necessary"?

Say. Did it ever occur to you that not every response in this thread was a direct response to your OP? :)

Condescension aside, my response was not directed at you but at the way this dissatisfaction with Robb and The Hottest Woman in the Show (who acts tremendously as well) has mysteriously become the most controversial thing on this board as far as the TV show goes. This, to me, is such a minor and understandable adjustment with the plot.

They ruined Robb Stark? They fucking made Robb Stark.

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Say. Did it ever occur to you that not every response in this thread was a direct response to your OP? :)

My bad, but what am I supposed to think since you weren't quoting anyone? Also, your post made no sense, since no one in the thread has stated that Robb's story should have been told off-screen. You're effectively attacking a strawman.

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Morrigan, take a chill pill.

Sorry to get so testy. That tends to happen when people talk cheaply about something like rape...

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