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Morrigan

[Book spoilers] They ruined Robb Stark

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Robb made a stupid mistake in the book but it was understandable. He was still a boy who got caught up in grief over the death of his brothers. He then married Jeyne to protect her honor. Stupid to be sure but honorable. What he's doing on the show is anything but honorable.

If he chooses to marry Talisa because he loves her, he's basically saying that his word means absolutely nothing. That he's not as honorable as Ned. It's selfish of him to throw away an important alliance and basically spit in the face of all that his bannermen have sacrified. I can't see how he'll come across as more sympathetic. Quite frankly, if he chooses to throw away his marriage pact for his own selfish reasons, then he deserves to have Roose Bolton plunge that knife into his heart.

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You're effectively attacking a strawman.

That is only true if the whole point was about the on-screen versus off-screen thing.

Part of my point (and to be fair, it's coming from more than just this thread...also the main book spoilers thread) is that so many posters seem to have a problem with a lot more than just he on versus off screen issue. So apologies if my response was stemming not just from the responses in this thread but from the responses to the episode in general.

I do stand by my argument that this, for all of the changes, is just a bizarre one to worry about. I mean, we here in Westeros are sweating fucking bullets, doing coke, not sleeping, and checking the Intrade odds by hitting "refresh" every 30 seconds to find out how likely it is that Clefjaw = Ramsay and yet we're worrying about whether Robb's lover is actually a Westerling or not? Sheeeiit. It just seems like a mis-allocation of energy and attention in a world in which such things are limited.

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No way, Darth Pipes - That would make sense if the only reason Robb married Jeyne in the books was due to honor, and some honor breaking his vows to Lord Frey, eh?

Book Robb fell in love w/ Jeyne, honor be damned. This ain't that different.*

*Jaime's thoughts on her being worth losing a kingdom for notwithstanding

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You're right, it wasn't honorable to break his vows and I do believe he loved Jeyne. But at least the "official" reason was that he wanted to protect Jeyne, which was honorable albeit very stupid.

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That is only true if the whole point was about the on-screen versus off-screen thing. Part of my point (and to be fair, it's coming from more than just this thread...also the main book spoilers thread) is that so many posters seem to have a problem with a lot more than just he on versus off screen issue. So apologies if my response was stemming not just from the responses in this thread but from the responses to the episode in general. I do stand by my argument that this, for all of the changes, is just a bizarre one to worry about. I mean, we here in Westeros are sweating fucking bullets, doing coke, not sleeping, and checking the Intrade odds by hitting "refresh" every 30 seconds to find out how likely it is that Clefjaw = Ramsay and yet we're worrying about whether Robb's lover is actually a Westerling or not? Sheeeiit. It just seems like a mis-allocation of energy and attention in a world in which such things are limited.

I'm one who preferred Robb's story being offscreen, and the show has only confirmed my feelings. Namely, Robb's story is just fucking boring. He's really done nothing this season other than have a cliched meet cute with some sort of noblewoman turned Florence Nightingale. Their scenes together are boring and at times the dialog is painful; their first meeting was just full of cliches, her being the tough nurse who talks back to authority. Plus, why does Robb keep allowing someone as low as a battlefield nurse to keep interrupting his important war councils? Makes no sense to me.

Considering how rushed this season has been, I feel like the time spent on this romance has just been a waste. I would have just preferred a short scene of Jeyne tending to Robb after he takes the Crag and learns Bran and Rickon are "dead", then next season we find out he's married.

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Morrigan has it spot on.

Either way, its the same outcome, he breaks his vows.

I don't agree with the notion that as long as you arrive at the same destination, it doesn't matter which route you took to get there.

I wonder what the rationale for this change was. Possibly it was entirely budgetary - they kept Robb and "Jeyne's" scenes at the King of the North's campsite, didn't need to worry about adding a Crag location - matte paintings, castle courtyard exteriors and castle interiors, costuming for another 'house', casting-wise a few small speaking roles. Although I'm sure they could have re-used extras and some of the scenes at Robb's camp wouldn't have been needed, or just have taken place in the same tent at "The Crag".

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Did anyone notice how Talissa wanted to make a list of things for the Maester of the Crag. She didn't want to go with him. This leads me to believe she IS Jeyne Westerling, but show viewers won't find out her true identity till either next season or even till after the Blackfish escapes and Riverrun surrenders.

It does seem like a cliche romance, but I'm glad someone pointed out that Robb's mother had just betrayed him. His mother told him to honor his commitment to Lord Frey. Perhaps part of why he slept with "Talissa" was because he felt betrayed. "My mother doesn't listen to me, why should I listen to her?"

Where Robb almost waved off Catelyn with a light slap on the wrist for letting Jaime go in the books, he seemed really hurt and betrayed in the show. Going from that angle, the Robb/Jeyne relationship still works.

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If he's not going to succumb to Talisa/Jeyne while she's nursing his wounds, what's the point of having her be a battefield nurse?

I don't mind that he has a crush on her, he's aroused by her, he blurts out "I don't want to marry the Frey girl" (after all, it was his mother's arrangement behind his back and she just betrayed him with the Kingslayer, too! he wants to say dang it all).....but how stupid would he be to marry a Volantene, forsaking a political marriage & a promise & the troops that come with it? At least with the Westerlings he gets something (if they hadn't been plotting against him--but he couldn't know that).

(And what is Talisa doing there, really? There's nobody in Volantis to nurse? Did she move to Westeros because there's no slavery? How does she make a living? Is this a paying gig as battlefield nurse? Nobody's going to pay her to tend both sides, are they?)

On the other hand, at least we get the relationship on-screen instead of Robb just showing up one day after an extended absence with some wife.

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Did anyone notice how Talissa wanted to make a list of things for the Maester of the Crag. She didn't want to go with him. This leads me to believe she IS Jeyne Westerling, but show viewers won't find out her true identity till either next season or even till after the Blackfish escapes and Riverrun surrenders.

They were shown coming home from the Crag though, as if the trip had nothing noteworthy, so to me it looks like her hesitance was either a remnant of initial script where she is still "Jeyne", or second-guessing herself because King in the North just effectively asked her out.

Removing the grief over Bran/Rickon angle from Robb and Cat's mistakes is a mistake, IMO. It removes the punch to the gut and sympathy we felt for the two characters when they met again and realized what each other had done. Their actions feel more selfish now, and when Robb/Talisa was happily tumbling all I can think of was "way to go Robb, piss on your men's loyalty, on the soldiers who left their families to die for you, on the old people back home trying to make ends meet without their able-bodied relatives, on crops going bad because there's no one to harvest even though winter is coming." For a moment I sympathize with Roose Bolton.

He can still avert that by not marrying her, but marrying her is kinda necessary for the event that the producers really want to show. Wait and see, but I'm not confident they can get it.

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This is what I had to say in the other thread:

I don't mind the "Talisa" thing in itself, but I just don't see how they're going to have Robb marry her without being even more of an idiot than in the books. At least in the books, he only slept with her when he was wounded and emotionally unstable due to hearing about Bran and Rickon, and then married her afterwards for her honour. But in the show, there's no reason why he wouldn't be perfectly clear-headed when he has sex with her (he's not injured and hasn't heard about his brothers) so he knows what he's doing, and he's a grown man as opposed to a 16 year old. It's going to be a lot harder to sympathise with him when he screws up the war and loses his kingdom and the lives of his men over an infatuation.

And yes I would call it (mutual) infatuation. It's a bit too soon to be talking of love.

In both cases Robb knew there would be severe consequences, not just for himself but for his people and the war, if he married her. However, if he had sex with her he would definitely have to marry her - that's just who he is. So the real problem, apart from his unchangeable personality, is him sleeping with her in the first place. The difference is that show Robb is clear-headed (and significantly older) when he has sex with Talisa and thus has no excuse for putting his personal infatuation/ love/ whatever over the war effort and the lives of his men.

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They haven't really set up the circumstances that would make it important for her to marry her either. If she is a Sansa-type character, then I think the audience would understand, oh, yeah, he's jeopardized her virtue, etc... - but why would he be in such a hurry to rush Talisa from Volantis? Why can't they just have a relationship? There's nothing about the context in which the relationship has been established that really suggests it's a big deal for them to have sex. I never saw it being about him having to marry her because HE had sex with her. it was about him having to marry her because SHE had sex with him. To protect HER honor. But we're not really given a characterization of Talisa that makes it seem like she would give a crap. Her family is far away. Her country is far away. No one knows her. No one cares. She's more like Ygritte if anything. Even if he wants to marry her, there's no urgency, there's no reason it has to happen right away. It just doesn't really make sense. But when it is a highborn lady whose honor is at stake, the urgency makes sense. And if he and Talisa don't get married, then what the hell? Why would the Freys be mad at him? Ugh, it is just driving me crazy.

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I would have just preferred a short scene of Jeyne tending to Robb after he takes the Crag and learns Bran and Rickon are "dead", then next season we find out he's married.

Considering the direction of this season, that would make too much sense.

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If you guys haven't noticed, drippy characters like Jeyne Westerling don't work on television. She wasn't even mousy and victim-y like Jeyne Poole, she was just...kinda there. A plot device to facilitate the Red Wedding. This hybrid Talisa/Jeyne character gives audiences a way to understand why Robb would risk everything. Talisa is extremely sexy, exotic and has the kind of personality that drives men wild. Now compare this to Jeyne Westerling who's only attributes were that she had good birthing hips and was adequately pretty.

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If he's not going to succumb to Talisa/Jeyne while she's nursing his wounds, what's the point of having her be a battefield nurse? I don't mind that he has a crush on her, he's aroused by her, he blurts out "I don't want to marry the Frey girl" (after all, it was his mother's arrangement behind his back and she just betrayed him with the Kingslayer, too! he wants to say dang it all).....but how stupid would he be to marry a Volantene, forsaking a political marriage & a promise & the troops that come with it? At least with the Westerlings he gets something (if they hadn't been plotting against him--but he couldn't know that). (And what is Talisa doing there, really? There's nobody in Volantis to nurse? Did she move to Westeros because there's no slavery? How does she make a living? Is this a paying gig as battlefield nurse? Nobody's going to pay her to tend both sides, are they?) On the other hand, at least we get the relationship on-screen instead of Robb just showing up one day after an extended absence with some wife.

All this.

But really, I would rather see their relationship as in the books than what we saw till now.

I feel like their story is a story from 21th century relocated to mediaeval environment. She is independent, strong, works (honestly, how many highborn girls have we seen nursing wounded people after a battle?), dares to talk against the king and randomly walk into his tent during meetings with Bolton - I have no idea why Bolton takes this and just walks out without a word every time she does it - and she is perfectly willing to sleep with him, as she would have been just waitiong for it the whole time. OK, maybe they have other notions about honour in Volantis and a woman having sex with a man she is not married to is not that bad as in Westeros, but her not thinking of it for even a minute before getting naked is just random. What does she intend to do, keep nursing the soldiers with an illegitimate child?

Robb, too, does not even think about the consequences. "I don't want to marry the Frey girl." Really? Because of the bad writing, I feel like they have no chemistry between them at all, and they did not make their "love" irresistible or anything.

BTW, was there no bed in the tent?

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Other than making Robb unlikable (which I think they have done a sterling job of so far), there is the butterfly effect of his decision in regards to his character.

Robb didn't trade Jaime for his sisters because he saw the Kingslayer as a greater prize and knew his bannermen wouldn't be happy if he was released. He knew that keeping his bannermen sweet was important: that despite his personal feelings about his sisters, he had to be shown to be doing what needed to be done. Also sadly with two living brothers, Sansa and Arya were not as important. He later regrets not trying to do more for them (or at least trying to form an alliance with the Tyrells by marrying Sansa to the Knight of Flowers). It is the deaths of Bran and Rickon that motivates Cat to try and get her daughters back and Robb to sleep with Jeyne. That is one of the reasons both Cat and Robb can sort of understand what the otherone has done. It's Edmure that locks Cat up, not Robb.

Now we have petulant show Robb who is now trying to fob off his responsibilities and getting all whiny about the personal cost of leadership. Being raised to be a high lord has many of the same expectations and duties as a prince being raised to be a king. So instead of choosing the honour of a highborn maid (which was an issue, due to social norms) he is clearly sleeping with this girl from Essos (who has no quams about jumping into bed with him) who as a battleside nurse falls dangerously close to the camp follower category, and presumably decides rather than keep his word, he is just going to do what he wants and marry her, consequences be damned. The unfortunate side effect is that it makes him look childish and because the Tullys haven't been introduced he is no going to be forcing Edmure to help him cover his mistake and that he cares nothing for his sisters. His sisters weren't worth losing bannermen, but when it came to his own personal desires he was doing what he wanted.

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I somehow softened my stance to all this Jane-is-Talisa story. Though her background story is a bit dumb.

However, Talisa character, as they portrayed her in the Tv show , looks like someone who would stop Robb from breaking his oath to Freys and endangering himself and his cause.

Also,she is a foreigner from Volantis and it would be less shameful for Robb (although he is noble ad has his fathers example) not to marry her.

On the other hand, Jane Westerling from the books is a daughter from a poor but very noble house of Westeros and it would be greater shame and more difficult for Robb just to to leave her after open sexual relationship.

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I wonder how they're gonna solve this to make it believeable. Because for me, it absolutely doesn't make any sense why he would throw away the Frey-alliance for Talisa. Robb sure doesn't have to marry Talisa imo, as was the case with Jeyne Westerling.

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Also given the world setting, Robb should most certainly be disdainful of marrying a girl who is going to jump into bed with him so easily. In the books Robb felt he has dishonoured Jeyne and therefore, she would be ruined because of it.

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I wonder how they're gonna solve this to make it believeable. Because for me, it absolutely doesn't make any sense why he would throw away the Frey-alliance for Talisa. Robb sure doesn't have to marry Talisa imo, as was the case with Jeyne Westerling.

He didn't have to marry Jeyne, either. He dishonored Talisa exactly the same way as he dishonored Jeyne. There really isn't that big a difference besides Talisa being an actual character with actual lines, instead of just a plot device of doom.

Also given the world setting, Robb should most certainly be disdainful of marrying a girl who is going to jump into bed with him so easily. In the books Robb felt he has dishonoured Jeyne and therefore, she would be ruined because of it.

Was Jeyne Westerling a reluctant victim of his unwanted advances? I was under the impression that she "jumped into bed with him" just as easily.

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