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Morrigan

[Book spoilers] They ruined Robb Stark

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Was Jeyne Westerling a reluctant victim of his unwanted advances? I was under the impression that she "jumped into bed with him" just as easily.

There was always the impression that Robb felt he had maybe taken advantage of her. She was technically his prisoner as he had captured the Crag, which even though it seems consensual, may have weighed on his conscience. Also Jeyne wasn't following an army around. Given the world setting, women who followed in the wake of armies were generally not maids.

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Was Jeyne Westerling a reluctant victim of his unwanted advances? I was under the impression that she "jumped into bed with him" just as easily.

I'd say Jeyne "jumped into bed" much more easily. She knew Robb for what, a day or two, before that? I don't think the exact time is mentioned in the books, but that was my impression. And Robb was feverish most of the time.

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I don't have time to read the whole thread right now, but I completely agree with the OP.

and also - considering they made such a point about how Talisa isn't a ~conventional Lady~, I doubt Robb will be marrying her to protect her honor. It'll most likely be because he's in wuv with her. gag me.

Robb was my favorite asoiaf character but at this rate in the show I'll probably be rooting for his death by the time the red wedding comes along.

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He didn't have to marry Jeyne, either. He dishonored Talisa exactly the same way as he dishonored Jeyne. There really isn't that big a difference besides Talisa being an actual character with actual lines, instead of just a plot device of doom.

Difference is pretty big. In a medieval setting of Wetseros Talissa is..almost nothing..some stranger from Volantis that follows the army.. unless she helps the wounded because she is a nun.

Jane Westerling, on the other hand, comes from very noble house and was Robb's captive of sort

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I think the point being is that often honor and code requires and causes irresolvable conflicts. JL is a perfect embodiment of this. By trying to do the right thing with Jeyne ne: Talisa, robb is doing dishonor.

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I find the main problem with the story is Robb as a character.

Like in the books, he is a very one dimensional character. He just do. He doesn't have an agenda, he doesn't develop besides becoming king in the north, again something that fell upon him, not something he aspired to do.

The TV show doesn't do a great job wit the character either. He doesn't know what to do after he has one, and that's a man who is king and people die for him. How stupid is that? He just fights for justice, and that's it.

So the story of him is just left uninteresting, because the character itself is just that. Uninteresting.

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I don't know. I would actually sympatize with Robb less if he followed the same draconic lawful honor that got his father killed. Honor is not a good thing. It is an archaic concept that allows for no compassion, mercy, or humanity.

O_o

Honor n. personal integrity; allegiance to moral principles.

Yes a terrible thing is honor, the world would be a much better place without people of integrity.

OT. I don't see much difference between falling into a woman's arms who has shown you compassion out of grief, and falling into her arms through a bond of friendship and mutual respect developed over several weeks of observing her and conversing with her and coming to love her character. If either situation leads you to break an agreement then that moment of weakness is isn't justified in either case. The difference, I think, is more about maturity. Book Robb was less mature than TV Robb. Maturity includes acting and thinking more rationally and less impulsively especially in matters of state. Sadlyt lacking in many people who are actually in charge of matters of state. Therefore in book Robb impulsive immature behaviour is more understandable than with TV Robb. Although if we consider TV Robb to still be less than 20 I'd say impulsive immature behavour is still understandable.

In fact in the cultural context no one would care that Robb boned the nurse, "he has a man's needs". The deal with the Freyys is still on. Walder Frey never demanded Robb be a virgin, in fact I bet Walder Frey would think it odd in the extreme if Robb was a virgin. So even boning Florence Bonesaw (that you unsullied) isn't a problem. What's the problem with this story line really? There is perhaps one way they can credibly justify Robb marrying a foreigner and thus breaking the agreeement with Walder Frey. Is Robb going to play the "a king does what he wants" card? Robb just got done proclaiming that's not the sort of king he wants to be. If Flo Bo demands he marry her because she's now been sullied, well I can see that credibly happening only if she IS a Lannister mole. I think if she gets her 30 pieces of silver after the red wedding and finds herself well set up in Lannisport with a smile on her face, then that could almost work. But still, who among the Lords and Cat will buy for a minute that Robb needs to marry a nobody nurse from the enemy lands simply because he did the nasty with her. Even if Robb says she's a highborn lady from Volantis, and even if the lords believe him, they wouldn't care. What's Volantis and the honor of those houses matter to those Lords? Those Lords might not like the Freys but they know how prickly Frey is and they know the massive risk of pissing off Frey is not worth having Robb marry a nobody. So even if Flo Bo is a mole who's purpose was to get in with Robb and force him to break his agreement with Frey, I can't see how the writers will be able to achieve this result retaining credible character behaviours other than deceitful Flo Bo herself.

If Flo Bo's feelings for Robb are genuine and they selfishly get married (which of course they must), then yes that is so much cheese I'll start believing David and Dan must be French.

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Why is marrying for love so much worse than because of "protecting her honor"? I think they are equally bad in terms of irresponsibility and short-sightedness. How can the honor of one girl be worth it losing 4000 soldiers at a time of vicious war when the enemies were outnumbering Robb's forces? I don't see how Book Robb's behaviour is more sympathetic. At least the TV Robb would break his vow for a woman he knows well and their relationship was given time to develop (yeah, it's a badly written cliche, I know, but this is not the point). Book Robb did it for someone he met a day or two before the marriage and she was even supposed to be an enemy.

Besides, I've always maintained that the more honorable course of action for Robb would've been to keep the vow he gave to the Freys.

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Also given the world setting, Robb should most certainly be disdainful of marrying a girl who is going to jump into bed with him so easily. In the books Robb felt he has dishonoured Jeyne and therefore, she would be ruined because of it.

the tv producers have thrown out that them completely. Class distinction doesnt exist. Talisa sitting when talking to a king, walking into his tent, tywin having a conversation or 10 with a cupbearer. One of the many losses of the transition from book to tv

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Why is marrying for love so much worse than because of "protecting her honor"? I think they are equally bad in terms of irresponsibility and short-sightedness. How can the honor of one girl be worth it losing 4000 soldiers at a time of vicious war when the enemies were outnumbering Robb's forces? I don't see how Book Robb's behaviour is more sympathetic. At least the TV Robb would break his vow for a woman he knows well and their relationship was given time to develop (yeah, it's a badly written cliche, I know, but this is not the point). Book Robb did it for someone he met a day or two before the marriage and she was even supposed to be an enemy. Besides, I've always maintained that the more honorable course of action for Robb would've been to keep the vow he gave to the Freys.

I think the difference is book robb was lonely, wounded and grief stricken when a beautiful maid nurses him back to life, he has a moment of weakness succumbing to lust. Then due to a conflict of honor decides to marry

Compare that to TV robb who for weeks or months flirts with a pretty nurse (who in the contect of the setting is little more than a camp follower), who lectures others on betrayal who is repeatedly told to remember your commitment to the freys) falls for the pretty stranger.

the tv robb seems to be more calculated in his lustful pursuit, which makes it less sympathetic than it happening as a result of a momentary lapse in judgement.

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Why is marrying for love so much worse than because of "protecting her honor"? I think they are equally bad in terms of irresponsibility and short-sightedness. How can the honor of one girl be worth it losing 4000 soldiers at a time of vicious war when the enemies were outnumbering Robb's forces? I don't see how Book Robb's behaviour is more sympathetic. At least the TV Robb would break his vow for a woman he knows well and their relationship was given time to develop (yeah, it's a badly written cliche, I know, but this is not the point). Book Robb did it for someone he met a day or two before the marriage and she was even supposed to be an enemy. Besides, I've always maintained that the more honorable course of action for Robb would've been to keep the vow he gave to the Freys.

Of course it would. Point is that Robb has been acting quite stupidly. He should've listened to his mother (not that she's acting wisely) and he should've done it the first time.

However, I still believe that he had to marry Jeyne, while he doesn't have to marry Talisa. And if he doesn't marry Talisa, the producers have to make something up to lose the Frey-alliance.

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I'm beginning to tire of the "jon is young and inexperienced so he has to make mistakes" rebuttel.

His training while growing up in Winterfell has already been mentioned so lets just begin with his experience at the nw.

1) clearly the best recruit in his class, everyone expected him to be a ranger

2) instead he was selected as the lord commanders steward, the producers of te show even stated that te selection was to groom him for command.

3) saves lord commanders life along with ghost when he was attacked by a wight.

4) very quick to learn his lessons from the yard when he was bullying the other recruits

5) takes tarly under his wing and becomes a leader of his new class.

So do i even need to spell out how far he's backtracked this season, its like he became a grenn/tarly from training class all over again. Its all regression, no progression. He's chastised like a child multiple times amd seems more out of place than even samwell tarly.

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The only plausible reason for show Robb to marry Tallisa is if she gets pregnant.

except for the whole moon tea thing

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Difference is pretty big. In a medieval setting of Wetseros Talissa is..almost nothing..some stranger from Volantis that follows the army.. unless she helps the wounded because she is a nun.

Jane Westerling, on the other hand, comes from very noble house and was Robb's captive of sort

Robb thinks Talisa is a lady, and the Westerlings in the books are little more than peasants with titles, a run-down castle and few swords. The two characters' standings aren't that much different.

Jeyne wasn't Robb's captive: when the Crag capitulated, Jeyne certainly wasn't a part of the agreement. She quite voluntarily decided to nurse him (Robb certainly had his own medical staff more than capable to wipe his forehead and empty his chamber pot). Again, not that big a difference.

And he certainly didn't have to marry Jeyne. True, he somewhat sullied her honor, but screwing her figuratively (after doing the same literally) was not only sounder politically, it was also more honorable option that marrying Jeyne and thus breaking his vow and screwing all his loyal vassals in one moronic move. Robb wasn't his own person, he didn't for her honor's sake sacrifice his own honor, he sacrificed the honor of House Stark and his entire kingdom. A single most suicidally stupid play in the books, trumping Ned's poor excuse for a coup and Tywin's taunting the man with a crossbow aimed at his stomach.

So no, Book Robb's foolishness wasn't by any measure better, more justified, more logical, more honorable or more understandable.

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Why is marrying for love so much worse than because of "protecting her honor"? I think they are equally bad in terms of irresponsibility and short-sightedness. How can the honor of one girl be worth it losing 4000 soldiers at a time of vicious war when the enemies were outnumbering Robb's forces? I don't see how Book Robb's behaviour is more sympathetic. At least the TV Robb would break his vow for a woman he knows well and their relationship was given time to develop (yeah, it's a badly written cliche, I know, but this is not the point). Book Robb did it for someone he met a day or two before the marriage and she was even supposed to be an enemy. Besides, I've always maintained that the more honorable course of action for Robb would've been to keep the vow he gave to the Freys.

Yes, well put. I just can't wrap my head around the notion of Jeyne Westerling's honor being worth more than Robb's solemn duty to judiciously lead and protect the thousands of men who've pledged their lives to him, left their homes and families, etc. Book-Robb is in no way any more honorable than HBO-Robb.

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The Westerlings were far above peasant with Swords. Kevin says they had been considering marry Jeyne to one of his sons, but it was the Essos based grandmother who married into the Spicers that stopped them because their lineage wasn't good enough. The Westerlings may have been below the Starks, and Jaime reckoned they would be married off to second or third sons, but they were still Westerosi Nobility. Talisa is according to herself a Lady, but her behaviour and her station as a battlefield nurse make her of dubious reputation.

Robb falling in love and breaking a pact and losing a huge proportion of his bannermen because of his personal desires, when he has left is sisters to be abused in KL because he said he has to set aside his personal desire to free them in favour of keeping his Bannermen sweet makes him rather than a tragic young man who felt the pressure of honoring a noble girl he had deflowered in a moment of illness and sorrow over Bran and Rickon, in to a self indulgent hypocrite and certainly not up to the duties and personal sacrifices required of a High Lord or King.

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and this is the problem. I wanted to see this story. I wanted to see the story of Robb in the west. But what they came up is just awful. On any show, this plotline would have been terrible.

For Robb, it is certainly against what the book Robb would have done. Show Robb just saw this hot girl on the battlefield and started pursuing her. Which, yknow, would have been fine. It's essentially a different story with many of the characters exhibiting many changes. Buuut, this story is just not good or interesting.

I'd have rather they changed the story to have Robb marry a Frey and not give us a red wedding than, shove this trite plotline at us

exactly. if they simply wanted to give Robb more screen time, they easily could have accomplished that by following him into the Westerlands and showing the plotline we didn't see in the book (a plotline many of us were looking forward to in the show)

but instead they're boring us to tears with this "new and improved!!!!!" love story, and have ruined his character in the process.

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