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Morrigan

[Book spoilers] They ruined Robb Stark

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Frankly, I don't find either of the romances (Robb/Jeyne and Robb/Talissa) particularly compelling, but I don't really miss Robb's "honorable stupid" move from the book that much. I certainly don't see how Robb is ruined because he doesn't do something specific that I found profoundly idiotic and unbelievable but YMMV.

Agreed.

The fact is that Book Robb/Jeyne simply doesn't translate to the screen. It makes no sense at all in a TV show to have Robb suddenly just appear, married to this woman, where the ultimate consequences (RW) are so drastic for him and the Starks generally. Bottom line for the entire Robb story in ACOK: what works in the book doesn't necessarily work on screen. The writers had to invent so many scenes with Robb simply so that he remains as a major screen character in Series 2, so they had to do 'something' to show Robb/ girl. They took the decision that overall, it made much more sense for him to have a gradual relationship with this girl Talisa than to show him just have a sudden moment of passion, and fling everything away as a hot-blooded young man. The Robb/Talisa scenes are fitted in nicely with other scenes of Robb on campaign, and also serve to show Robb's genuine concern for the welfare of his men, and for the captives. IMO, the way they have shown Robb in those scenes with Talisa make him much more real and believable, and for me, highlight the personal issues and sadness he was going to face in marrying a woman he'd never met for purely political reasons.

They "could" possibly have written a Robb/Talisa sex scene as a night of grief and passion following news of Bran's and Rickon's deaths, but as we know, that particular piece of the story has been delayed. We don't yet know why that is or when they will show it - I am perfectly comfortable with the decision, as Cat's decision to free Jaime still makes sense in the context of her daughters. But having made that decision, then many other little elements need to fit in around it.

In the context of writing a TV series, I don't think there was any right or wrong way to show "Robb marrying some other girl" and thus breaking his oath to the Freys. As someone else pointed out above, no-one in that world would have worried too much if Robb had slept with any number of women before getting married to the Frey girl - the critical element plotwise is that Robb does marry and does break his oath. He is thus brought down by the same noble-but-stupid Stark sense of honour that caused Ned to lose his life.

Ah well, like father, like son - there are certainly some interesting examples of that in ASOIAF! :D

.

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A couple other things played a role here too. There was really no way to keep show Cat away from Robbs camp long enough for him to get married anyway, yet her scene with Jaimie had to happen. So with the show needing a way for both scenes to happen I think the solution they came up with is for Robb's arrest to come earlier. I suspect Bran's death will still be the impetus for Robb's marriage so in that respect they didn't really change anything other than Robb having sex earlier.

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if you watch the inside the edition episode, D&D blame robb's cheatingon his mother!!!!!!!!!!! they say Robb was living in a world of honor raised by Ned and Cat to act a certain way but all around him people were living dishonorably. and when lCat betrayed him he was so pissed that he figured fuck it.

AAARRRGGHHHHHH

blaming Cat for Robb screwing around.

flabbergasted

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if you watch the inside the edition episode, D&D blame robb's cheatingon his mother!!!!!!!!!!! they say Robb was living in a world of honor raised by Ned and Cat to act a certain way but all around him people were living dishonorably. and when lCat betrayed him he was so pissed that he figured fuck it. AAARRRGGHHHHHH blaming Cat for Robb screwing around. flabbergasted

I haven't watched this week's 'inside the episode' yet. Wow, that is quite revealing how oddly the producers have interpreted the reasons behind Robb's decision to sleep with and marry Jeyne Westerling... I don't think ANY of us, no matter how much we disagree on how the relationship with this different woman, "Talisa" should or could have played out would have seen that particular interpretation coming.

Now I'm even more confused than I was before as to why they changed Jeyne Westerling into Talisa of Volantis. If Robb Stark decided to screw around with her because he's mad at his Mother, then I'm completely at a loss as to how they're going to interpret everything else in Robb's story to his end. Is the Red Wedding now Catelyn's fault too?!

Very very strange interpretation of motives...

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blaming Cat for Robb screwing around.

flabbergasted

Well, SHE was the one who made the original marriage agreement so they could cross the river in Series 1 :D So in one very real way, she was responsible for his situation, being bound to marry a woman he doesn't want! And subconsciously, I also could see Robb being extremely pissed off with Cat, for both book and show reasons.

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He didn't have to, and certainly 99% of men would have acted differently. But the fact that he felt compelled to marry her because he honestly thought "honoring" Jeyne was more important than his pact with the Freys said a lot about his character and was crucial to his storyline, even if it was a mistake. And if the show has Robb marry Talisa under different terms, it would remove that characterization, and the theme of honor (or his idea of honor) being his downfall. this isn't directed at you specifically, but a lot of people are implying this so I'd like to say it - Robb's arc isn't an any means to an end sort of thing. The importance of Robb's character is how he gets to the point of the Red Wedding, not just "he makes a mistake and gets betrayed, blah blah blah"

Bingo! Which is why GRRMs story is so complelling to read, it is not simplistic, it is textured, it is deep with multiple intepretations and meanings. The journey is the destination.

The important part of Robb is not the Young WOlf, it is not the battles he wins, it is the embodiment of honor. There is NO honor to chase tail around camp for weeks and months and end up bedding and wedding a camp follower to get back at your mom for betraying you.

There is honor for responding to a momentary lapse of reason by trying to do the right thing.

THAT is Robbs story.

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Well, SHE was the one who made the original marriage agreement so they could cross the river in Series 1 :D So in one very real way, she was responsible for his situation, being bound to marry a woman he doesn't want! And subconsciously, I also could see Robb being extremely pissed off with Cat, for both book and show reasons.

NONONONONO!

She negotiated with the Freys. Jon was the deciderer. the decision was his. Do not disempower Robb in that way!

;) :P

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WRT to sticking with the book on Robbs love life, I for one would have trusted translating the story to the screen. Hey its a great story nonetheless so why not.

If it was handled well, the story could have been EPIC in translation to the screen.

Cat releases Jamie, all tense and worried about his reaction, but indignant over needing her daughters freed. Jon returns victorious.

He meets Cat and forgives Cat (perfectly natural for a King to forgive his mother), Cat is all like Robb thank you you made the right decision.

Oh btw mom here is my new bride and I lost the freys as a result, so dont hate me for betraying the north for love.

It could ahve been EPIC

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There is NO honor to chase tail around camp for weeks and months

Hey, I’ve seen young pups chase their own tails around for hours and hours, or so it seemed.

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Hey, I’ve seen young pups chase their own tails around for hours and hours, or so it seemed.

yes but the mouth doesnt marry the tail once they catch it.

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yes but the mouth doesnt marry the tail once they catch it.

Yes, but the mouth can chew very happily at the tip of the tail for hours and hours after they catch it! So satisfying .. :D

As for the Book Robb love story being translated to the screen, I think you lose sight of the fact that to do that, they would need to include all the Westerling sub-plot. Meaning several additional characters rather than just one girl, and if longer term they don't need this for lead-up to the RW (and they don't), then it's fine to make changes.

As I said above, the current Talisa story and her scenes also serve to show various things about Robb that we only hear second and third hand in the books. This rounds out Robb's character nicely, as he's not just a successful battle commander, but also an honourable man who does his best for his men, and even tries to look after his captives. By being fixated on just one particular aspect, it's easy to miss the fact that many non-book scenes have to serve multiple purposes in the screen adaptation.

The Robb scenes do this very well, IMHO, as do the Tywin/Arya scenes. Yes, there are deviations from Book Arya, but the critical aspect is that those scenes serve multiple purposes. We learn a great deal about Tywin, who in the books is a key figure that we only hear about as a lurking background figure through books 1 and 2, influencing events without us actually 'seeing' him. We also get exposition of Westeros history (scene in Ep 7 about the dragons and Harrenhal), and we also learn a little more about Jaime and Cersei, which will lead nicely into what we should see of their relationships with Tywin in ASOS. We still get the Arya who has not only killed a man herself, but is also prepared to coldly order people's deaths via Jaqen's debt. We see her growing cunning and ruthless streak when she gives the third name, which is pure Book Arya.

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Agreed.

The fact is that Book Robb/Jeyne simply doesn't translate to the screen. It makes no sense at all in a TV show to have Robb suddenly just appear, married to this woman, where the ultimate consequences (RW) are so drastic for him and the Starks generally.

People keep saying this, but I don't see why that's true. I think it could have been a really interesting twist. There are several episodes AFTER the marriage and BEFORE the Red Wedding to have us get sufficiently invested in the relationship, as those who promote this theory seem to think is important. How shocking would it be to non-book readers when Robb shows up with his new wife? The way the story was written, his doing Talisa was pretty much an inevitability, not surprising at all.

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been there done that have the scars to prove it

Yes, but the mouth can chew very happily at the tip of the tail for hours and hours after they catch it! So satisfying .... :D
\

been there done that have the scars to prove it

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People keep saying this, but I don't see why that's true. I think it could have been a really interesting twist. There are several episodes AFTER the marriage and BEFORE the Red Wedding to have us get sufficiently invested in the relationship, as those who promote this theory seem to think is important. How shocking would it be to non-book readers when Robb shows up with his new wife? The way the story was written, his doing Talisa was pretty much an inevitability, not surprising at all.

which is why the story is disappointing HBO is playing to the demographic that needs to be hand walked through a story.

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which is why the story is disappointing HBO is playing to the demographic that needs to be hand walked through a story.

That’s an inevitable price that must be paid, because it’s the moronic majority who also supplies the majority of the subscription fees. In a world where half the people are below average, no business will willingly allow half its revenue stream to die off.

So they have to aim low. Peter Jackson and Bill Gates both did the same thing. Aim stupid, and you make more money: stupidity is never in short supply. The bottom line is that it’s all about the bottom line.

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People keep saying this, but I don't see why that's true. I think it could have been a really interesting twist. There are several episodes AFTER the marriage and BEFORE the Red Wedding to have us get sufficiently invested in the relationship, as those who promote this theory seem to think is important. How shocking would it be to non-book readers when Robb shows up with his new wife? The way the story was written, his doing Talisa was pretty much an inevitability, not surprising at all.

This, completely.

Or if they wanted to keep Robb as a regular character, they could have easily followed him into the Westerlands and simply shown the exact plot that we missed in the books play out on screen. That's personally what I was looking forward to before all of this Talisa crap happened. His sleeping with Jeyne out of grief would have been a really powerful scene imo, as would the "oh shit" moment when he decides he has to marry her.

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That’s an inevitable price that must be paid, because it’s the moronic majority who also supplies the majority of the subscription fees. In a world where half the people are below average, no business will willingly allow half its revenue stream to die off. So they have to aim low. Peter Jackson and Bill Gates both did the same thing. Aim stupid, and you make more money: stupidity is never in short supply. The bottom line is that it’s all about the bottom line.

almost makes me want to read more.

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Latin for wife is uxor, so I would caller an uxor ex machina. She isn’t really a diabola, best as we know at least.

Well, as Deus ex machina means a miraculous save pulled by the storyteller out of nowhere, we need an analogous term for a similar plot twist out of nowhere, screwing the heroes. Hence diabolus.

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