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[TWoW Spoilers] Theon I, Part 5


Angalin

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No, I do think Ramsay's letter is by his hand. I imagine he wrote and sent it at first word that Stannis had been defeated and 'Arya Stark' sent to the Wall for safe keeping. As for the disparity in forces, I think Stannis possess more than enough with Manderlay to take the castle, especially with the Boltons caught unawares. Also, this isn't about getting all of Stannis' men inside the castle immediately, they just need someone on the inside to open the gates (see Trojan War).

So, to be clear:

1. Stannis and Manderlay combine to slaughter the Frey force.

2. Manderlay returns, with some of Stannis' men dressed as Freys proclaiming victory (with Stannis' sword in hand, as proof).

3. Ramsay writes his letter to Jon Snow.

4. Later that night the gates are opened to allow the remainder of Stannis' men and the remaining Northmen inside to storm the castle while most of the Bolton men are asleep.

5. I also imagine as all of this is going on, many of the Northerners on the Bolton's side will switch allegiance (quite willingly, at that).

I really like this and it seems the most probable outcome I've read so far. Well said.

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I agree with the above post that that is probably the most likely event. As insignificant as this may seem who else would have pink sealing wax? My only question is why ramsay and not roose write the letter? I feel that we keep making complicated reasons for the letter like Stannis or mance trying to draw jon out to help and things like that but I think simple is better and that is...... Ramsay is just an idiot.

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I tried to post this earlier , but got caught in a glitch..here's hoping this works

LordDolorousEdd..There's a captive Dreadfort maester in Stannis' camp ..very likely to have some pink sealing wax about him...Maybe not much , but then.. he only needs a "smear". ;)

If Stannis wrote the letter ,probably the most important objective would be to give Jon warning of an impending attack.

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No, I do think Ramsay's letter is by his hand. I imagine he wrote and sent it at first word that Stannis had been defeated and 'Arya Stark' sent to the Wall for safe keeping. As for the disparity in forces, I think Stannis possess more than enough with Manderlay to take the castle, especially with the Boltons caught unawares. Also, this isn't about getting all of Stannis' men inside the castle immediately, they just need someone on the inside to open the gates (see Trojan War).

So, to be clear:

1. Stannis and Manderlay combine to slaughter the Frey force.

2. Manderlay returns, with some of Stannis' men dressed as Freys proclaiming victory (with Stannis' sword in hand, as proof).

3. Ramsay writes his letter to Jon Snow.

4. Later that night the gates are opened to allow the remainder of Stannis' men and the remaining Northmen inside to storm the castle while most of the Bolton men are asleep.

5. I also imagine as all of this is going on, many of the Northerners on the Bolton's side will switch allegiance (quite willingly, at that).

I have been thinking along the same lines as well, and this is very plausible.

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One thing my theory doesn't account for is how Theon and/or Asha will fit into the battle sequence (and one of them will have to, since they are the only POVs there).

I'm quite sure Theon is fated to survive in the short term but I don't quite know how. I'm also a firm believer that Theon and Asha taking back the Seastone Chair is going to be a developing storyline (far too much groundwork has been laid to abandon it now).

So I'm working under those two assumptions.

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Concerning the fate of Asha and Theon, perhaps GRRM will send them back to Pyke to re-open the Kingsmoot. Perhaps their role (at least one of the characters) will be to convince the rest of the Ironborn to renounce Euron and to join with the rest of Westeros against the pending invasion by the Others (assuming that plot line occurs).

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Concerning the fate of Asha and Theon, perhaps GRRM will send them back to Pyke to re-open the Kingsmoot. Perhaps their role (at least one of the characters) will be to convince the rest of the Ironborn to renounce Euron and to join with the rest of Westeros against the pending invasion by the Others (assuming that plot line occurs).

I was toying with the idea of Stannis keeping Asha while he sends off Theon and Asha's men back to Pyke (picking up Dagmer Cleftjaw and his crew along the way). One way or another, one of the two has to stay in order to detail the battle but by having Theon go that would at least expedite that storyline somewhat.

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Asha needs Theon alive to reconstitute the Kingsmoot and knock Euron off the throne, maybe she'll stay with Stannis as a hostage and Theon sent home with the other Ironborn. Theon runs into Damphair, who drowns him and brings him back. At this point it will be an epiphany for Theon, having been brought to the dark depths of his soul, he is now reborn, "that which is dead cannot die..." he'll be hard and twisted, the ideal Ironborn Lord. He'll kill and or maim a few and the rest will flock to his side at the new Kingsmoot.

I'll take bets on whether or not he flays Euron.

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Not sure if I stole this idea from the forums or from conversations with friends but...

Stannis indicates that he has the upper hand in an impending battle. " We hold the ground...". When Theon questions him he says,"What ground?... [there are] no natural defenses."

To this Stannis replies "Yet."

There is only one natural defense and that is the lake. They have cut holes in the ice to fish through and turned it into swiss cheese. With a fresh snow fall however those holes would be imperceptible and as soon as Bolton forces marched across it to meet Stannis's army they would fall through. A well timed fire/explosion/anything-really could set off a chain reaction and swallow all their troops at once after they were all atop the ice.

I think Stannis will provoke the Boltons to attack by sending word with the ravens and possibly by letting it slip that he has Reek and that the Karstarks have turned cloak to Stannis's side.

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Great Unwashed.. have you read the Theon gift chapter, yet ?..The ravens in Stannis' camp belong to the Dreadfort maester. They are all "destination Winterfell " ravens...but their behavior makes us feel they are being controlled by Bran and Bloodraven. Something might happen ( I would bet at the weirwood ) to give Stannis the idea that just maybe they could fly to Jon... In case that idea is wrong , he would want to make the letter sound like it's from Ramsay. ( If the raven flew to WF , Stannis wouldn't want Roose to know he's alive. )

He would not be trying to trick Jon .. he'd be trying to warn him that Ramsay was on his way to the wall , bent on destruction and wanting to demand every hostage he could get his hands on. After Ramsay was taken care of , I'm sure he'd appreciate help himself, but the main concern would be to keep Ramsay from over running Castle Black. Secondarily, would be ( in any order ) 1. to let him know "Arya" was on her way..2. Perhaps a hint at Mance's situation (It's possible that Stannis may be able to figure out Abel is Mance , depending on the content of the conversations Stannis had with Mance. ) .. 3. help for himself in the form of supplies and / or wildlings ( He knows about Tormund's people since the arrival of Tycho Nestoris and the letter from Jon.)

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The ironborn will never accept Theon as their king now. Not only is he half-mad from the torture he's endured at Ramsey's hands, but he's also weak and broken. The ironborn revere strength and weakness is anathema to them. When you add that to the fact that he's been...unmanned...then the idea of Theon becoming King of the Ironborn becomes a pipe dream.

What is dead may never die!

“ Priest:"Let <person> your servant be born again from the sea, as you were. Bless him with salt, bless him with stone, bless him with steel."

Response:"What is dead may never die."

Priest:"What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger"[2]

let <person> = Theon.

Theon died. He has been dead for years. Now he's back. ...somewhat... he is still rising, ... harder and stronger. By the time he gets back to the Iron Islands he will be a different person. Harder, Stronger. The Ironborn will follow him.

Also, it's been quite some time since I read the reek chapters, was Theon really cut the way Varys was or did he just use it as a metaphor for his weakness/cowardice?

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That letter sounds too much like Ramsay to have been written by anyone but Ramsay. It may be full of lies, but Ramsay wrote it. I can't see any of the suggested suspects: Mance, Theon, Roose (?), someone on Stannis's behalf, getting the tone that right, even Theon.

I'm sad after finally reading the sample chapter that Theon is chained so brutally. Can't they just give him a little cell and some warm milk or something? Jesus. Asha is tough. If I had to see a brother of mine in that condition, no matter what he had done to deserve it, I think it would completely break me. That little part where she says "It is," so softly that he thinks she is going to cry, is really sad.

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I'm with you, Jolene, about Theon's treatment. I was very upset that he was chained as I was hoping that he would get a break since he helped free fake Arya and knows an awful lot of extremely valuable information.

I imagine it's no different at all, but I wonder if being chained six feet off the floor is any worse than being six inches off the floor. I suppose not!

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The ironborn will never accept Theon as their king now. Not only is he half-mad from the torture he's endured at Ramsey's hands, but he's also weak and broken. The ironborn revere strength and weakness is anathema to them. When you add that to the fact that he's been...unmanned...then the idea of Theon becoming King of the Ironborn becomes a pipe dream.

I think that throughout his story in ADWD Theon slowly goes from being broken Reek back to Theon. He's not quite there yet but I think in say 5 years he could be back to normal (if he survives that long). And whether or not Theon is actually a eunuch is something I think GRRM was puposely vague about.

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I think that throughout his story in ADWD Theon slowly goes from being broken Reek back to Theon. He's not quite there yet but I think in say 5 years he could be back to normal (if he survives that long). And whether or not Theon is actually a eunuch is something I think GRRM was puposely vague about.

IIRC, it never explicitly states if Theon was "cut". For all we know, he could still be intact down there, just impotent due to the severe torture/malnutrition he was subjected to at the Dreadfort.

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I am really hoping Theon was not castrated, but that line where he thinks about how Ramsay cuts off fingers, toes, and "that other thing," and then later, when Ramsay asks him to "prepare" Jeyne, and he says, "but I have no..." is all pretty damning evidence. Plus, it fits GRRM's pattern - Jaime loses his sword hand, Cercei is shamed through a type of sexual humiliation, and Theon has one of the only things he feels confident about - sexuality - taken away from him, as well as the other thing - his archery ability - made more difficult.

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Oh yeah, I agree the circumstanstial evidence is pretty damning as well. Especially upon perusing the syntax used in the text, as well as Theon's musings on Ramsay's penchant for mutilation. I suppose the "I have no..." could possibly be filled in the blank with the word "use..." but it is more likely that Ramsay marked him down there as well because it fits with the character's trope.

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That letter sounds too much like Ramsay to have been written by anyone but Ramsay. It may be full of lies, but Ramsay wrote it. I can't see any of the suggested suspects: Mance, Theon, Roose (?), someone on Stannis's behalf, getting the tone that right, even Theon.

There's a bajillion threads on it, but the long and short of it is, in all other examples of Ramsay letters, we've had blood-as-ink, the specific adjective "spiky" hand, and in two cases, a flayed piece of skin.

None of that is present in the pink wax letter. The "spiky hand" may not be such a big deal if Jon had not specifically noted it in the previous letter he got from Ramsay. It's extremely out of character for Ramsay to write such a goading letter from a supposed position of power and not include an ear, finger, skin, etc., some type of grisly trophy cut from Stannis's head. This points to someone other than Ramsay as author.

In my mind the following is most plausible: Bolton's capture Mance and/or spearwives while the Freys and Manderlys are gone. I agree with the prevelent theories about Stannis's trickery and Manderly's complicity. The returning Northmen tell the Boltons all the info in the letter about Stannis's defeat and hand him Lightbringer. All well and good, says Boltons, but where's Arya?

"Arya" was the lynchpin in the Bolton's claim. When she leaves, it's def-con 5 panic time in Boltonland, because it's spelled out for us in a bajillion ways that the Boltons can't command the North's loyalty w/o the Stark marriage. For the Boltons, the only thing worse than Arya's absence is if she runs to Jon Snow, as he can call B.S. on the ruse with all credibility.

Snow, therefore, has to be silenced. Roose's analysis is that Snow is a man who didn't act when his father and brothers were all betrayed and murdered, his sister married a Lannister, and his other sister married the most sadistic guy in the North. Roose's thinking goes, if Snow is informed that his ally Stannis is dead and he's alone in the North, that should subdue him. If it doesn't, tell him that we know about Mance, and if he spills the beans about Arya, we'll spill the beans about Mance, and let the North decide who they hate less. I'll write the letter as Ramsay, to put a little more fear in this weak-kneed, family tragedy ignoring bastard.

So, the letter was simply a blackmail attempt. The last desperate act of guys that are about to die horribly. No more, no less.

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I like the idea that they are trying to lure Jon south so they can kill him, before fake Arya has a chance to reach him. i don't think that precludes the letter having been written by Ramsay though. He is lying about defeating Stannis, so he can't send his skin. It's written in a hurry and panic, because he's so freaked/angry about fake Arya being gone, so he doesn't take the time to pull his usual piece of skin, blood-ink shenanigans. The other letters were written when he had triumphed and he had time/the desire to gloat. This is written after "Arya" escapes and as a desperation measure, so that is why there are the differences. The spiky hand thing is interesting, but GRRM may just have been tired of making the same point/description. I personally think this letter was written right after Theon/Jeyne escaped, without any battle having taken place between anyone and Stannis's camp yet at all.

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To my mind, the definitive statement(s) on the issue are the several times it is remarked upon that Theon smells like urine. Now, it could be because he sleeps with Ramsey's bitches, but it is even remarked upon after Theon is cleaned up for Jeyne's wedding. I honestly couldn't tell you how difficult it would be for a man to control his bladder without a cock, but I can imagine it wouldn't help matters. In addition, that recalls to mind the fact that Lord Varys is always perfumed...he could be trying to cover up the smell of urine.

Varys is castrated, which means he lost his balls. That's what a eunuch is. As far as I know he still has his cock, so he shouldn't be pissing himself. At least I recall no hints that he doesn't.

Theon must have had his cock flayed by Ramsay. Flaying is Ramsay's thing, so this makes more sense to me than Ramsay just castrating Theon. We know that flaying fingers makes the victim beg for the finger to be cut off. Imagine the pain of a flayed cock. It was probably at least partially torn or cut off after flaying.

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