[TWoW Spoilers] Theon I, Part 5

[aryagonnakill]

Varys is castrated, which means he lost his balls. That's what a eunuch is. As far as I know he still has his cock, so he shouldn't be pissing himself. At least I recall no hints that he doesn't.

Theon must have had his cock flayed by Ramsay. Flaying is Ramsay's thing, so this makes more sense to me than Ramsay just castrating Theon. We know that flaying fingers makes the victim beg for the finger to be cut off. Imagine the pain of a flayed cock. It was probably at least partially torn or cut off after flaying.

we are actually told in meeren that the unsullied have their cocks cut off too. I definetly agree that theon got his manhood flayed tho. When Ramsey tells him to pleasure jeyne he says but i have no... when he is thinking to himself about all his lost fingers he also mentions and that other thing...

[Ser Scott]

Hey everyone

Just musing about ASOIAF on my way to work - as we all do - and was giving some thought to the various potential authors of the letter Jon received.

I've seen some good arguments that it is a ruse from Stannis, an act of desperation by Ramsay, or a plea for help from a Mance on the run.

Just one factor though throws doubt into my mind that it would be Mance - why would he not refer to Theon Turncloak by his name, and instead leave him as Reek? Surely that'd be the tipping point in terms of trying to persuade Jon that there's merit in leaving his post to deal with the Boltons. Jon would have the chance to deal with a handful of traitors to House Stark and the North with one blow....

After taking him captive, Stannis obviously would have found out the Reek/Theon identity and role...

I guess I'm back to thinking that it was most likely a rabid Ramsay who wrote the letter. Perhaps he has sadly managed to capture Mance and is extracted that info before hopefully tearing off with a force which Stannis will defeat.

[The Red Hand]

Varys is castrated, which means he lost his balls. That's what a eunuch is. As far as I know he still has his c'ock, so he shouldn't be pissing himself. At least I recall no hints that he doesn't.

Theon must have had his cock flayed by Ramsay. Flaying is Ramsay's thing, so this makes more sense to me than Ramsay just castrating Theon. We know that flaying fingers makes the victim beg for the finger to be cut off. Imagine the pain of a flayed cock. It was probably at least partially torn or cut off after flaying.

I hope your right, I mean yeah Theon did some bad things but I don't think he deserved to be de-cocked. I think GRRM left it so vague so that he could keep the possibility of Theon having a kid alive.

[winterstood]

If this plays out like I think it will, we'll get to see Stannis in full tactical mode.

Here's how I see it playing out (and I'm sorry, but I didn't read through all 1600+ posts so apologies if I plagarize someone).

Stannis knows that approximately half of Bolton's force is on their way to him, with the other half holed up in Winterfell. He's uncovered Karstark's betrayal and has the two ravens that are trained to fly to Winterfell. He smashes the Freys, most likely with the help of Manderley's forces, and sends word by raven of victory and conspires with Manderley for Manderley to return with "proof" of Stannis' death, which perhaps explains the "7 days of battle" in the letter. In addition to proof, Manderly also returns with word that Arya Stark and Reek had been sent on to the Wall for protection. This is when Ramsay sends the letter to Castle Black. Most likely Manderley's forces will have been "decimated" (while in reality most of them joined Stannis' forces) so the Boltons know they will have to march on the Wall to get back Arya/Jeyne, since she's their only legitimate claim to Winterfell and there is no chance the Lord Commander will return her to them.

Meanwhile, Stannis' and Manderley's forces march up the Kingsroad to Winterfell and take the now lightly guarded castle, trapping Bolton's forces between Winterfell and the Wall.

I think the key piece of evidence is that Ramsay asks for Reek. If Stannis truly had been defeated, then Ramsay would have had Theon, since Stannis certainly wasn't going to release him, or at the least, Ramsay would have found out that Theon had been executed. The Boltons and Freys are about to receive their comeuppance.

I like this - and Stannis is a tactician.

[VaramyrSixchins]

I like the idea that they are trying to lure Jon south so they can kill him, before fake Arya has a chance to reach him. i don't think that precludes the letter having been written by Ramsay though. He is lying about defeating Stannis, so he can't send his skin. It's written in a hurry and panic, because he's so freaked/angry about fake Arya being gone, so he doesn't take the time to pull his usual piece of skin, blood-ink shenanigans. The other letters were written when he had triumphed and he had time/the desire to gloat. This is written after "Arya" escapes and as a desperation measure, so that is why there are the differences. The spiky hand thing is interesting, but GRRM may just have been tired of making the same point/description. I personally think this letter was written right after Theon/Jeyne escaped, without any battle having taken place between anyone and Stannis's camp yet at all.

I don't think he was trying to lure Jon south at all. They wanted to intimidate/blackmail Jon into keeping silent on "Arya", by threatening to tell the North about Mance. Which didn't work at all.

Jon: "Yeah, Ramsay, we wouldn't want you telling the North I'm cool with wildlings!" Whispers to wildling army he's recruited "Anybody asks, you guys are my cousins from out of town, NOT WILDLINGS!"

[Black Wolf Smith]

First time these threads. I only started at the begin of this one, because I read 20 something pages before and it just goes round and round. I did not see what I think on the 3 pages here, but I know someone has at most it.

Stannis does not know that Manderley's has an agreement with Davos. Doesn't he think they kill him instead? i do think the Manderley's being behind the Frey's attach them. They have just cut Lord Manderley's throat, which is why they where sent out different gates. I also think that too much info in the letter that Stannis did not have so I don't think it is him.

I can only see it coming from Ramsey. There are only 2 ways I see it happening, in both Ramsey got hold one of the girls and got the info from her.

1. Ramsey pissed off, after fighting with his father, takes his boys and is chasing after "Arya" Rosse thinking that Stannis is the bigger problem, and must be taking care of 1st. Ramsey doing what he does, thinks his toy is all that matters. He grabbed a bird while sneaking out.

2. Is that the Manderley's men have gotten with stannis men and they got in WF gate. Whether by Tojan horse or if one of Lord Manderley's let them in, and Ramsey and a few other got out, with a bird.

3.Is of course that did in fact beat Stannis.

[woweezowee]

Craziest of crazy theories: the author of the letter is in fact Varys, in another devious attempt to spread chaos and bring about the collapse of the realm. Using his network of spies he gathers information on the situation at the wall and at Winterfell, and decides to give Jon that nudge over the edge...

Wildly improbable, of course, but I just wanted to put it in writing so that, if it somehow turns out to be true, you all proclaim me the one true god :cool4:

[Urien the Ragged]

Varys is castrated, which means he lost his balls. That's what a eunuch is. As far as I know he still has his cock, so he shouldn't be pissing himself. At least I recall no hints that he doesn't.

Theon must have had his cock flayed by Ramsay. Flaying is Ramsay's thing, so this makes more sense to me than Ramsay just castrating Theon. We know that flaying fingers makes the victim beg for the finger to be cut off. Imagine the pain of a flayed cock. It was probably at least partially torn or cut off after flaying.

castration can indeed mean removal of all parts. i believe it has at least been strongly implied that varys has no parts left.

[Lady of Long Lake]

we are actually told in meeren that the unsullied have their cocks cut off too. I definetly agree that theon got his manhood flayed tho. When Ramsey tells him to pleasure jeyne he says but i have no... when he is thinking to himself about all his lost fingers he also mentions and that other thing...

Wouldn't it be kinda funny if what happened to Theon in that world is HORRIFYING TORTURE but in our modern world, it is considered a normal procedure that is done to newborn boys? I'm referring to circumcision. What if George is being ironic and all that Theon lost was a little foreskin? And he's probably been laughing at us that have been worrying for years about poor Theon's mutilated weewee.

[bemused]

:worried: :drunk: :laugh:

[Jolene Brown]

I really really hope you are right, but I doubt it. That "I have no..." during the wedding night scene seemed pretty damning to me.

[King Bolton 1990]

As far as Theon goes I wouldn't feel that bad if he was castrated mainly because of all the horrible things he did in ACOK. I also think that maybe that was something put into his head by Ramsey maybe while Theon was a guest at the Dreadfort as he was being tortured Ramsey would continual tell him that Reek was not a man. So maybe he wasn't cut but Ramsey gave him the worlds longest softy threw mental and physical torture.

[IKE]

'That other thing' could be referring to loss of manhood in a less than literal way. . . On subsequent read through I tried keeping an eye out to get a better idea. Some things I've noticed:

My Reek. The kiss Ramsay gives him. Life-long companionship(previous Reek was with Ramsay since he was a babe). Horrible treatment to women. Presence during the wedding consummation. The previous Reek wearing women's apparel and perfume. . . I'm saying Ramsay could be. . . what he has over Reek/Theon is more than just physical torture thing, but like a domination fetish, master/slave. When Theon and Ramsay say Not even a man I took it as more of a mental thing, not literally. Theon's been raped, and especially the times like the Middle Ages, sodomy was a life-changer.

The original Reek, when was discovered and killed by Rodrik and his men, was defiling the body of a dead woman. If Ramsay is building Theon up as a replacement to the previous Reek, he wouldn't cut him or else they couldn't have their fun together. IDK, just something that caught my eye. Often times Theon describes Ramsay's voice as 'a lover's whisper.' Creeeeepy.

This concept also keeps the whole irony and redemption thing for Theon, as he was quite fond of sowing bastards in women. He prides himself on it at one point. If anything, this angle may even be more ironic.

ANYWAY, no more weewee thinking for me.. The idea that Stannis has Karstark's ravens and can send false information to WF is partly the reason if the letter IMO. I do believe Ramsay has Mance as well. Although the letter says Mance is kept warm with the spearwives' skins. That had to be a pretty quick skinning.

[Jolene Brown]

'That other thing' could be referring to loss of manhood in a less than literal way. . . On subsequent read through I tried keeping an eye out to get a better idea. Some things I've noticed:

My Reek. The kiss Ramsay gives him. Life-long companionship(previous Reek was with Ramsay since he was a babe). Horrible treatment to women. Presence during the wedding consummation. The previous Reek wearing women's apparel and perfume. . . I'm saying Ramsay could be. . . what he has over Reek/Theon is more than just physical torture thing, but like a domination fetish, master/slave. When Theon and Ramsay say Not even a man I took it as more of a mental thing, not literally. Theon's been raped, and especially the times like the Middle Ages, sodomy was a life-changer.

I think this too, especially given his quote about the things he and Jeyne had been made to do in Ramsay's bed during the wedding night. That, to me, implies to each other and to Ramsay. However, I don't know that this precludes his also having been castrated as well, sadly.

[fusedafuse]

Craziest of crazy theories: the author of the letter is in fact Varys, in another devious attempt to spread chaos and bring about the collapse of the realm. Using his network of spies he gathers information on the situation at the wall and at Winterfell, and decides to give Jon that nudge over the edge...

Wildly improbable, of course, but I just wanted to put it in writing so that, if it somehow turns out to be true, you all proclaim me the one true god :cool4:

how about, LF knows about the piece of paper that makes Jon heir to everything Robb had. Of course LF would like Sansa to be heir to the north, so he quickly writes the pink letter and sends it to the Wall, in order to provoke chaos. We all know LF thrives on chaos

[Ramsay Gimp]

'That other thing' could be referring to loss of manhood in a less than literal way. . . On subsequent read through I tried keeping an eye out to get a better idea. Some things I've noticed:

My Reek. The kiss Ramsay gives him. Life-long companionship(previous Reek was with Ramsay since he was a babe). Horrible treatment to women. Presence during the wedding consummation. The previous Reek wearing women's apparel and perfume. . . I'm saying Ramsay could be. . . what he has over Reek/Theon is more than just physical torture thing, but like a domination fetish, master/slave. When Theon and Ramsay say Not even a man I took it as more of a mental thing, not literally. Theon's been raped, and especially the times like the Middle Ages, sodomy was a life-changer.

The original Reek, when was discovered and killed by Rodrik and his men, was defiling the body of a dead woman. If Ramsay is building Theon up as a replacement to the previous Reek, he wouldn't cut him or else they couldn't have their fun together. IDK, just something that caught my eye. Often times Theon describes Ramsay's voice as 'a lover's whisper.' Creeeeepy.

This concept also keeps the whole irony and redemption thing for Theon, as he was quite fond of sowing bastards in women. He prides himself on it at one point. If anything, this angle may even be more ironic.

ANYWAY, no more weewee thinking for me.. The idea that Stannis has Karstark's ravens and can send false information to WF is partly the reason if the letter IMO. I do believe Ramsay has Mance as well. Although the letter says Mance is kept warm with the spearwives' skins. That had to be a pretty quick skinning.

I had never considered that Ramsay may have raped Theon (shocking given my username, I know). But now that I think about it it doesn't seem unlikely

[MarianneSnow]

'That other thing' could be referring to loss of manhood in a less than literal way. . . On subsequent read through I tried keeping an eye out to get a better idea. Some things I've noticed:

My Reek. The kiss Ramsay gives him. Life-long companionship(previous Reek was with Ramsay since he was a babe). Horrible treatment to women. Presence during the wedding consummation. The previous Reek wearing women's apparel and perfume. . . I'm saying Ramsay could be. . . what he has over Reek/Theon is more than just physical torture thing, but like a domination fetish, master/slave. When Theon and Ramsay say Not even a man I took it as more of a mental thing, not literally. Theon's been raped, and especially the times like the Middle Ages, sodomy was a life-changer.

The original Reek, when was discovered and killed by Rodrik and his men, was defiling the body of a dead woman. If Ramsay is building Theon up as a replacement to the previous Reek, he wouldn't cut him or else they couldn't have their fun together. IDK, just something that caught my eye. Often times Theon describes Ramsay's voice as 'a lover's whisper.' Creeeeepy.

This concept also keeps the whole irony and redemption thing for Theon, as he was quite fond of sowing bastards in women. He prides himself on it at one point. If anything, this angle may even be more ironic.

ANYWAY, no more weewee thinking for me.. The idea that Stannis has Karstark's ravens and can send false information to WF is partly the reason if the letter IMO. I do believe Ramsay has Mance as well. Although the letter says Mance is kept warm with the spearwives' skins. That had to be a pretty quick skinning.

My first thought always went to Ramsay castrating Theon but I had not thought of Ramsay raing "Reek." This isn't fact right??? Is there any clues to this?

[bemused]

I would definitely not rule it out. There's no end to Ramsay's depravity , and if it's the pain and torture that bring gratification, I can't see that the gender of his victim would matter much.

[The Red Hand]

I've always considered the possibility of Ramsay raping Theon, but it doesn't negate the possibility of him beiing castrated. Theon has gone through so much that I hope he isn't.

[rmholt]

One thing my theory doesn't account for is how Theon and/or Asha will fit into the battle sequence (and one of them will have to, since they are the only POVs there).

I'm quite sure Theon is fated to survive in the short term but I don't quite know how. I'm also a firm believer that Theon and Asha taking back the Seastone Chair is going to be a developing storyline (far too much groundwork has been laid to abandon it now).

So I'm working under those two assumptions.

There is something about the Weirwood on the island that only Asha knows about.