[TWoW Spoilers] Theon I, Part 5

[alienarea]

There is something about the Weirwood on the island that only Asha knows about.

Is this in the text somewhere?

[rmholt]

Is this in the text somewhere?

Deduced by me from Asha's insistence that Stannis take Theon there himself (not her religion and not really his) and all the chatter to Theon from the Winterfell godswood and the ravens.

[rmholt]

I really really hope you are right, but I doubt it. That "I have no..." during the wedding night scene seemed pretty damning to me.

Referencing Seven Beauties severe starvation and stress can take the starch right out of a guy. However, that wouldnt show if Theon were undressed. Perhaps there are tattoos or bite marks, or flaying or some desecration of his manly parts that have left them nonfunctional, like flaying or (my nightmare) cutting it in half lengthwise. I dont like to think about it!

[Pokemon Maester]

I think we have to face the cold, hard truth that Theon no longer has a tally with which he could be whacking.

Yes, that truth may be cold, but it most likely is no longer hard

[Azor Azai]

I think we have to face the cold, hard truth that Theon no longer has a tally with which he could be whacking.

Indeed the Tally-man has tallied his banana.

[LaroC]

Poor Theon... at least he enjoyed himself for some time... tsctsc

I may sound sadistic, but I think he kind of deseved it...I just hated him so much for being a traitor...

Maybe this will make him think about it and really redeem himself. (IMO running with Jeyne Poole wasn't nearly enough)

[WolfDragon]

There is a part, i forget what page of the paperback, during the wedding at winterfell where Ramsay is asking Theon if he "his hard on was pressing against his laces" I don't think he'd ask that if he was cut in that manner. I think it is more a mental castration.

[bemused]

Unless it was particularly cruel sarcasm.

[Manfryd Lothston]

Theon/Reek/Ramsay

1. Theon is no longer even a man, that has been emphasized very clearly in ADWD, including by Theon himself even after he discarded his Reek persona. He has been cut, we just need to accept that.

2. Theon may have been raped by Ramsay (indeed, it would have seemed no more than a minor inconvenience compared to his other difficulties), but Ramsay is probably more interested in master/slave domination than in sex per se. I wouldn't be surprised if he gets sexual gratification out of torture.

3. Ramsay does have a "special" relationship with Reek, which is more than a simple manifestation of his sadism/domination fetish. The first Reek reared him from childhood, and one of them "corrupted" the other, in Roose's words (or, more likely, they both corrupted each other). IMO Rams has been captivated by Theon's handsome features, legitimate high birth, natural arrogance, and the position of authority he had over Ramsay-Reek in Winterfell. Those were all a turn on for the Bastard (many sadists have a masochistic streak), so he wanted to "break" Theon and "make him his Reek" in a twisted game of "role reversal". Breaking his teeth with a hammer and cutting his manhood would be the way to go.

Now that Theon's escaped and is getting his old spirit back, Ramsay's furious for a number of reasons: not just spite, but also the frustration of his fetishes.

The letter

1. I believe the letter was written by Ramsay, for the following reasons:

A) Mance Rayder or Stannis would never write such a letter so long as Ramsay was still alive and kicking, for fear that Jon or whoever reads the letter at Castle Black really decides to give Ramsay what the letter demands - including Mance's own son, Val, Melisandre, Selyse and Shireen. That would have been a disaster and a fate worse than death, as both Mance and Stannis surely know.

B ) If Ramsay and the Boltons were defeated, again there is no reason for either Mance or Stannis to write this letter. Mance will get what he needs from Jon Snow following their deal; Stannis could simply command Jon to send these people to wherever he's now seated, and/or send messages to Selyse/Melisandre.

C) Furthermore, both Mance and Stannis are very aware of the Others' threat; they wouldn't risk stripping Castle Black of its defences by provoking the Lord Commander into heedless action against the Boltons, especially considering that any forces Jon may send will have to face the cruelty of winter and may perish en route without even reaching their destination.

D) The letter description doesn't mention Ramsay's spiky hand or a piece of skin, but it does have the pink wax of the Dreadfort and most importantly evokes in the characters who come in touch with it the particular "nasty", "evil" feeling associated with Ramsay's previous letters. Skin would be redundant anyway since Ramsay obviously has interrogated at least some of the spearwives and therefore has plenty of their skin available. The information contained in the letter is already threatening enough, without the need for a grisly physical token. The wording of the letter is also very characteristic of Ramsay, including the emphasis on "my Reek" and the fact that he refers to Jeyne as "bride" and not "Arya Stark" - neither Mance nor Stannis nor anyone except Ramsay, Roose, Theon and Jeyne herself know that "Arya" is a fake, and Theon so far did not tell anyone. But Ramsay knows that Jon would recognise Jeyne, so he doesn't waste breath claiming his bride is Arya.

2. At the same time, of course, the letter is probably filled with lies and half-truths. Ramsay is nothing if not cunning. He has already demonstrated an extraordinary ability to think and act fast even under mortal danger - his ruse with substituting the first Reek for himself and posing as the manservant was brilliant, especially considering he had nothing at his disposal except his wits. His attack on Roderik Cassel's force was masterfully executed as well, with the book noting that the Dreadfort men "had lesser numbers, but were better led". He takes Moat Cailin from the ironborn without a single casualty, only by properly using Theon/Reek. He baits Stannis with the "weakly defended" Dreadfort so as to smash him from the rear en route. Everything points towards Ramsay being a master of strategic and tactical deceit, ruse, feinting. As Paul Atreides remarked about Feyd-Rautha's martial style, "a feint within a feint within a feint".

3. So, if Ramsay is good at feints, why send Jon this letter? Why not, rather, lull him into a false sense of security while Bolton forces creep up on Caste Black, catching the Lord Commander unawares? I think the answer is as follows. The Freys were decimated at the "Battle of Ice" and Manderly went over to Stannis, but Ramsay has the spearwives, the Boltons still hold Winterfell, and Stannis is almost completely spent. Still, Roose can't risk leaving Winterfell, so he orders Ramsay to get Jeyne back, since obviously without "Arya" their hold on the North is weak. With the letter Ramsay hopes to lure Snow out of Castle Black and divide the Night Watch forces, taking CB while Jon struggles trying to reach Winterfell.

By the way, we know that a large portion of provisions at Winterfell comes from White Harbour (Manderly's ample provisions are always mentioned). IMO Wyman's probably poisoned them, so the Boltons aren't as well supplied as they think.

[aryagonnakill]

^ I agree with many of your points, theon was obviously cut and the letter was obviously not from mance or stannis i never understood why people postulated that, however I believe you may be giving ramsey credit for roose's work. Obviously ramsey was clevar in staying alive in cok but I thought that roose even told theon that moat cailin was his idea, and I have a hard time believing that the karstark plot was ramsey. And I also think that more people know arya is fake than you have suggested. I have the suspicion that at least some of the northern lords know this, and my feeling on that comes from theon's repeatedly saying she doesnt even have the right color eyes. It seems he's saying that its not even a very close match.

[HouseLark]

Theon/Reek/Ramsay

1. Theon is no longer even a man, that has been emphasized very clearly in ADWD, including by Theon himself even after he discarded his Reek persona. He has been cut, we just need to accept that.

2. Theon may have been raped by Ramsay (indeed, it would have seemed no more than a minor inconvenience compared to his other difficulties), but Ramsay is probably more interested in master/slave domination than in sex per se. I wouldn't be surprised if he gets sexual gratification out of torture.

3. Ramsay does have a "special" relationship with Reek, which is more than a simple manifestation of his sadism/domination fetish. The first Reek reared him from childhood, and one of them "corrupted" the other, in Roose's words (or, more likely, they both corrupted each other). IMO Rams has been captivated by Theon's handsome features, legitimate high birth, natural arrogance, and the position of authority he had over Ramsay-Reek in Winterfell. Those were all a turn on for the Bastard (many sadists have a masochistic streak), so he wanted to "break" Theon and "make him his Reek" in a twisted game of "role reversal". Breaking his teeth with a hammer and cutting his manhood would be the way to go.

Now that Theon's escaped and is getting his old spirit back, Ramsay's furious for a number of reasons: not just spite, but also the frustration of his fetishes.

I never really considered that Ramsay wanted to possess Theon for anything other than his own twisted idea of fun but it does make sense that he has a sexual interest in Theon as well. GRRM has left Theon's torture off the page but I think we will definitely see some of it on the screen since Alfie Allen is coming back for season three. We've also had the possible Ramsay audition video in which he appears to be about to commit rape on a person who seems male (he tells some guards to pull down his victims pants rather than remove their dress). There's a bit of speculation in there but it would add together. Certainly Ramsay enjoys sexual humiliation so I can't think that that wasn't part of Theon's torture.

I can't say I have a great deal of sympathy for Theon, in a horrible twist on his family words, he is only reaping what he has sown.

[bemused]

There can't be any doubt that for Ramsay , sexual gratification is connected with terror , torture and rape ..with violating his victim's person and psyche in every way possible..So even if he's naturally attracted to women ( they are the victims of his hunts) the process of torturing Theon has to have been arousing . If Theon has been spared any humiliation , abuse or degradation , it would be because Ramsay hasn't gotten around to it yet. And Theon has been at his mercy for some time.

I think Martin has not only left the door open but built in enough clues to connect the letter to a number of candidates ( talk about a feint within a feint ) that it's really not going to be settled until the next book. Since someone just started a thread specifically about the letter in light of the Theon chapter , I'll take my thoughts over there.

I agree Ramsey is clever and devious, but I wouldn't call him a master tactician , because he's ultimately ruled by his passions ( including rage ) and his appetites . So he's not nearly as smart as he thinks he is, and anyone who's familiar with his behavior might have a pretty good chance of predicting his next move.

[the titan of westeros]

In my mind ramsey had to have been the one to write the letter. Who starts a letter calling jon a bastard if not a recently unbastarded bastard (sorry for the bastards). I think the earlier theory regarding manderly tricking the boltons is correct(though there are a couple flaws). I figure if davos can come through with rickon then the northerners may also allow theon to take the black. I can picture theon firing obsidian arrows against the others.

[A Bong of Ice and Fire]

In my mind ramsey had to have been the one to write the letter. Who starts a letter calling jon a bastard if not a recently unbastarded bastard (sorry for the bastards). I think the earlier theory regarding manderly tricking the boltons is correct(though there are a couple flaws). I figure if davos can come through with rickon then the northerners may also allow theon to take the black. I can picture theon firing obsidian arrows against the others.

The only black Theon will see will be the eternal blackness of death. No way the Northerners let him live and join the NW. (Theon might, though, somehow escape with Asha before the Northmen can kill him.). His is a great story arc. Can't wait to see where it goes next.

[LordDolorousEdd]

Theon/Reek/Ramsay

1. Theon is no longer even a man, that has been emphasized very clearly in ADWD, including by Theon himself even after he discarded his Reek persona. He has been cut, we just need to accept that.

2. Theon may have been raped by Ramsay (indeed, it would have seemed no more than a minor inconvenience compared to his other difficulties), but Ramsay is probably more interested in master/slave domination than in sex per se. I wouldn't be surprised if he gets sexual gratification out of torture.

3. Ramsay does have a "special" relationship with Reek, which is more than a simple manifestation of his sadism/domination fetish. The first Reek reared him from childhood, and one of them "corrupted" the other, in Roose's words (or, more likely, they both corrupted each other). IMO Rams has been captivated by Theon's handsome features, legitimate high birth, natural arrogance, and the position of authority he had over Ramsay-Reek in Winterfell. Those were all a turn on for the Bastard (many sadists have a masochistic streak), so he wanted to "break" Theon and "make him his Reek" in a twisted game of "role reversal". Breaking his teeth with a hammer and cutting his manhood would be the way to go.

Now that Theon's escaped and is getting his old spirit back, Ramsay's furious for a number of reasons: not just spite, but also the frustration of his fetishes.

The letter

1. I believe the letter was written by Ramsay, for the following reasons:

A) Mance Rayder or Stannis would never write such a letter so long as Ramsay was still alive and kicking, for fear that Jon or whoever reads the letter at Castle Black really decides to give Ramsay what the letter demands - including Mance's own son, Val, Melisandre, Selyse and Shireen. That would have been a disaster and a fate worse than death, as both Mance and Stannis surely know.

B ) If Ramsay and the Boltons were defeated, again there is no reason for either Mance or Stannis to write this letter. Mance will get what he needs from Jon Snow following their deal; Stannis could simply command Jon to send these people to wherever he's now seated, and/or send messages to Selyse/Melisandre.

C) Furthermore, both Mance and Stannis are very aware of the Others' threat; they wouldn't risk stripping Castle Black of its defences by provoking the Lord Commander into heedless action against the Boltons, especially considering that any forces Jon may send will have to face the cruelty of winter and may perish en route without even reaching their destination.

D) The letter description doesn't mention Ramsay's spiky hand or a piece of skin, but it does have the pink wax of the Dreadfort and most importantly evokes in the characters who come in touch with it the particular "nasty", "evil" feeling associated with Ramsay's previous letters. Skin would be redundant anyway since Ramsay obviously has interrogated at least some of the spearwives and therefore has plenty of their skin available. The information contained in the letter is already threatening enough, without the need for a grisly physical token. The wording of the letter is also very characteristic of Ramsay, including the emphasis on "my Reek" and the fact that he refers to Jeyne as "bride" and not "Arya Stark" - neither Mance nor Stannis nor anyone except Ramsay, Roose, Theon and Jeyne herself know that "Arya" is a fake, and Theon so far did not tell anyone. But Ramsay knows that Jon would recognise Jeyne, so he doesn't waste breath claiming his bride is Arya.

2. At the same time, of course, the letter is probably filled with lies and half-truths. Ramsay is nothing if not cunning. He has already demonstrated an extraordinary ability to think and act fast even under mortal danger - his ruse with substituting the first Reek for himself and posing as the manservant was brilliant, especially considering he had nothing at his disposal except his wits. His attack on Roderik Cassel's force was masterfully executed as well, with the book noting that the Dreadfort men "had lesser numbers, but were better led". He takes Moat Cailin from the ironborn without a single casualty, only by properly using Theon/Reek. He baits Stannis with the "weakly defended" Dreadfort so as to smash him from the rear en route. Everything points towards Ramsay being a master of strategic and tactical deceit, ruse, feinting. As Paul Atreides remarked about Feyd-Rautha's martial style, "a feint within a feint within a feint".

3. So, if Ramsay is good at feints, why send Jon this letter? Why not, rather, lull him into a false sense of security while Bolton forces creep up on Caste Black, catching the Lord Commander unawares? I think the answer is as follows. The Freys were decimated at the "Battle of Ice" and Manderly went over to Stannis, but Ramsay has the spearwives, the Boltons still hold Winterfell, and Stannis is almost completely spent. Still, Roose can't risk leaving Winterfell, so he orders Ramsay to get Jeyne back, since obviously without "Arya" their hold on the North is weak. With the letter Ramsay hopes to lure Snow out of Castle Black and divide the Night Watch forces, taking CB while Jon struggles trying to reach Winterfell.

By the way, we know that a large portion of provisions at Winterfell comes from White Harbour (Manderly's ample provisions are always mentioned). IMO Wyman's probably poisoned them, so the Boltons aren't as well supplied as they think.

I must say this is a really good post. The Reek part was very interesting. I also think that the part on the letter was one of the best i have read about the topic. The only minor part I disagree with is that rams wrote the letter in order to draw Jon out, I just don't see Jon's reaction being the desired on and i think if it had eventuated then it would have shocked rams. Think about it he is saying that he no longer has Jon's sister and so why would Jon suddenly go after him? I get he threatens the NW but staying put or setting ambushes (which is what the wildlings would be best at) would make more sense then marching.

[The Red Hand]

I must say this is a really good post. The Reek part was very interesting. I also think that the part on the letter was one of the best i have read about the topic. The only minor part I disagree with is that rams wrote the letter in order to draw Jon out, I just don't see Jon's reaction being the desired on and i think if it had eventuated then it would have shocked rams. Think about it he is saying that he no longer has Jon's sister and so why would Jon suddenly go after him? I get he threatens the NW but staying put or setting ambushes (which is what the wildlings would be best at) would make more sense then marching.

When have the wildlings ever shown military cunning? There notorious for being without discipline. And as for the letter, I think that people put alot of faith into these crazy theories when the simple truth makes the most sense= Ramsay wrote the letter knowing that Mance was working for Jon, which he would know if he tortured Mance's spearwives. It makes sense that Ramsay would expect Theon to run to Jon for protection. And Ramsay flaunting Lightbringer seemed like an obvious lie to me.

[Vympel]

When have the wildlings ever shown military cunning? There notorious for being without discipline. And as for the letter, I think that people put alot of faith into these crazy theories when the simple truth makes the most sense= Ramsay wrote the letter knowing that Mance was working for Jon, which he would know if he tortured Mance's spearwives. It makes sense that Ramsay would expect Theon to run to Jon for protection. And Ramsay flaunting Lightbringer seemed like an obvious lie to me.

Cunning and discipline are two different things. No one would deny that German tribes didn't have the discipline of Varus' legions, but they destroyed three legions at the Battle of Teutoberg Forest and sent Augustus into a stupor of sorrow all the same.

[The Red Hand]

Cunning and discipline are two different things. No one would deny that German tribes didn't have the discipline of Varus' legions, but they destroyed three legions at the Battle of Teutoberg Forest and sent Augustus into a stupor of sorrow all the same.

The point I'm trying to make is that throughout the series the wildlings haven't shown anything but a basic aptitude for military strategy. I don't think them capable of making a succesful ambush like Teutoberg. Which was won partly because the Romans were poorly led, we know that Roose and even Ramsay are capable battle commanders.

[Vympel]

The point I'm trying to make is that throughout the series the wildlings haven't shown anything but a basic aptitude for military strategy. I don't think them capable of making a succesful ambush like Teutoberg.

All the Wildlings don't need that sort of aptitude, only their leaders do - no one would argue that the average man levied in the North is particularly able, after all. In a straight up fight, the Wildings would lose, but if they have a capable leader (Jon Snow, Mance Rayder) who knows their weaknesses and plays to their strengths, then victories are possible.

Which was won partly because the Romans were poorly led, we know that Roose and even Ramsay are capable battle commanders.

Roose seems to be an able though not brilliant commander, but I don't think there's any reason to believe Ramsay is any good. The only reason he won at Winterfell was because he had the good fortune of killing Ser Rodrik at the outset and then confusion reigned. I'm eager to see him tested in a battle where he doesn't have the advantage of turning his cloak, I imagine he'll be thoroughly smashed.

[evita mgfs]

Is this in the text somewhere?

Yes - I think in DWD, ". . . Asha had walked out with Aly Mormont to have a closer look at its [weirwood] slitted red eyes and bloody mouth. It is only sap, she [Asha] told herself, the red sap that flows inside these weirwoods. But her eyes were unconvinced; seeing was believing, and what they saw was frozen blood" (815).

Just some ideas to add - these weirwood faces and ravens have been following Theon from Winterfell. I catalogued the ravens - now here they are speaking in the Theon gift chapter. I will add, since I am and have been following the ravens / and murder of ravens (the ones that kill wights that appeared at Ramseys wedding with a laughing weirwood tree) -

Where is Mormont's raven? He mysteriously disappears sometime during Jon and Tormund's "two hour" discussion after receiving the Bolton letter?

Could Mors Umber's 'green boys' be crannogmen from the Neck? Lady Dustin and Mance "both" seem aware of the Bolton Mummer's farce (fake Arya) - Mance hopped over the wall and skipped down the kingsroad many a time to visit WF - even during Ned feasting Robert Baratheon.