[TWoW Spoilers] Theon I, Part 5

[Petyr Patter]

Dunno if its been said/asked but, Stannis is unaware of Manderlys plan to join him, right? So why do we all so easily assume Stannis accepts them rather than think it might be a ploy on him

Indeed, Stannis believes Manderly had his friend and Hand executed when he arrived at White Harbor under a truce banner to parley. Which is going to make any sort of agreement very difficult without Davos himself showing up to smooth things over.

Regardless, Stannis might eventually accept Manderly back into his peace, but he won't award him.

[mrlukeduke]

I think Wyman means to die inside Winterfell with the greybeards, splitting Bolton skull. The green boys are probably outside or at White Harbour still.

But if by some miracle he makes it out, then he or else the remaining Manderlys needs to let Stannis know they didn't hang and tar his onion knight.

[Ser Carson]

What if Shaggy Dog died on Skagos fighting that unicorn or because it killed a unicorn? What would happen if there was no proof of who Rickon was?

[aryagonnakill#2]

What if Shaggy Dog died on Skagos fighting that unicorn or because it killed a unicorn? What would happen if there was no proof of who Rickon was?

While this is entirely possible, it seems unlikely as Bran and Jon would have felt it.

[Nymeria's pup]

When I read the WoW Theon chapter this image from Monty Python Holy Grail always pops into my head. :lol:

[Quentyn Kartell]

From reading the letter to Jon again, it doesn't sound like Ramsay wrote it. How did Ramsay know that Mance Raydor was supposed to have been killed? Since Ramsay took Winterfell, he has never shown any interest or knowledge in the Wall or Night's Watch. How would he know about the wildling princess or Mance's son.

My apologies if this was said already.

[Dorian Martell]

He knows because he flayed them

[mrlukeduke]

He knows because he flayed them

This.

[Chatty Duelist]

The way i see it:

The Freys attack Stannis.

The Manderlys betray the Frey mid-battle, annihilating their host.

They disguise Stannis's men in the Frey coats.

They go up to Winterfell with Lightbringer to prove he's dead.

Ramsay sends the letter to Jon.

Night comes. The Boltons are celebrating their victory. The Manderlys and Stannis butcher them in their sleep.

Ta da!

[mrlukeduke]

Agree.

[Quentyn Kartell]

The way i see it:

The Freys attack Stannis.

The Manderlys betray the Frey mid-battle, annihilating their host.

They disguise Stannis's men in the Frey coats.

They go up to Winterfell with Lightbringer to prove he's dead.

Ramsay sends the letter to Jon.

Night comes. The Boltons are celebrating their victory. The Manderlys and Stannis butcher them in their sleep.

Ta da!

That can't work. The Freys and Boltons are too close for that to go unnoticed and Roose is already expecting to be betrayed by Wyman. Secondly, Stannis is from the South and "kidnapped" "Arya" a northern Lady. Than wouldn't sit well with northern lords. Manderly would be forced to act against Stannis. Thirdly Wyman already said what he needed from Davos. Forthly, there is no way for Stannis and Wyman Manderly to orchestrate that type of plan without the Freys or Bolton knowing. There's too much workin against that suggestion. The letter was definitely not written by Ramsay, he hates people calling him Snow. So why call Jon a bastard when he is one himself. Ramsay also does not know about Val, the baby prince... The big part that makes me 99% sure Mance wrote it is "The King Beyond The Wall" portion of the letter. He calls Jon a bastard, melisandre a red whore, plus the other six whores, but Mance he calls King Beyond The Wall? Doesn't make sense.

[mrlukeduke]

That can't work. The Freys and Boltons are too close for that to go unnoticed

You mean just like they noticed Mance Rayder (and co.), the Frey Pies, the snow traps, the Hooded Man, Theon's escape, certain visits to the Crypts ...

;)

[mrlukeduke]

Roose is already expecting to be betrayed by Wyman.

True but there's little he can do. Plus it seems Wyman means to die anyway, with the greybeards.

Forthly, there is no way for Stannis and Wyman Manderly to orchestrate that type of plan without the Freys or Bolton knowing. There's too much workin against that suggestion.

It's already happening. People are going in and out of Winterfell! Frey and Bolton men are being murdered. Umber men are laying traps in the snow. Warhorns are being used as signals. Etc.

The letter was definitely not written by Ramsay, he hates people calling him Snow.

It was! He didn't sign as Snow; he signed Ramsay Bolton, Trueborn Lord of Winterfell.

So why call Jon a bastard when he is one himself. Ramsay also does not know about Val, the baby prince...

1. Because he knows it angers him! It's the very thing he knows hurts, so that's why he calls him that.

2. Of course he does. Torture.

He has a flaying knife, so that rebuts all and any "Ramsay can't know" arguments. Anyting Mance knows, Ramsay now knows. 100% guaranteed.

Contrary to popular belief, torture always "works" in terms of extracting info. You get exactly the specific information you need, and more. People spill the beans, give up people they love, do anything to stop the pain. And flaying is perhaps the foulest torture one can think of; and we already know Theon was more than flayed. He was put on the rack, isolated, starved, etc. *Shudder*.

The big part that makes me 99% sure Mance wrote it is "The King Beyond The Wall" portion of the letter. He calls Jon a bastard, melisandre a red whore, plus the other six whores, but Mance he calls King Beyond The Wall? Doesn't make sense.

I don't understand why it doesn't make sense? It's perfect sense. Even Ned/Cat used 'King Beyond the Wall' (correct me if I'm wrong, can't find reference right now) in an earlier chapter. "Red whore" is perfect Ramsay. So you have to supply some reasoning...

He absolutely wants everyone associated with Mance, for numerous reasons: take your pick! Anger/revenge, strategy, territory, troops, public execution (aka 'kudos'), information, etc etc etc (need I go on?)

[Quentyn Kartell]

You mean just like they noticed Mance Rayder (and co.), the Frey Pies, the snow traps, the Hooded Man, Theon's escape, certain visits to the Crypts ...

;)

On most of your replies you miss my point. Your responses has nothing to do with what I said. If the mannerlys annihilate the freys and stannis's men show up wearing Frey garb, Bolton is going to notice that. Bolton is the smartest man in Winterfell right now. Strange faces coming back to Winterfell. No familiar faces. And you think Bolton is just gonna say OK and go to bed? Not likely. Another reason why I think Ramsay did not send the letter is because the text said it was sealed with a smear of pink wax. I believe in the past he used the dreadfort stamp but I can't remember what chapter I read that in.

We agree to disagree.

[Quentyn Kartell]

True but there's little he can do. Plus it seems Wyman means to die anyway, with the greybeards.

It's already happening. People are going in and out of Winterfell! Frey and Bolton men are being murdered. Umber men are laying traps in the snow. Warhorns are being used as signals. Etc.

It was! He didn't sign as Snow; he signed Ramsay Bolton, Trueborn Lord of Winterfell.

1. Because he knows it angers him! It's the very thing he knows hurts, so that's why he calls him that.

2. Of course he does. Torture.

He has a flaying knife, so that rebuts all and any "Ramsay can't know" arguments. Anyting Mance knows, Ramsay now knows. 100% guaranteed.

Contrary to popular belief, torture always "works" in terms of extracting info. You get exactly the specific information you need, and more. People spill the beans, give up people they love, do anything to stop the pain. And flaying is perhaps the foulest torture one can think of; and we already know Theon was more than flayed. He was put on the rack, isolated, starved, etc. *Shudder*.

I don't understand why it doesn't make sense? It's perfect sense. Even Ned/Cat used 'King Beyond the Wall' (correct me if I'm wrong, can't find reference right now) in an earlier chapter. "Red whore" is perfect Ramsay. So you have to supply some reasoning...

He absolutely wants everyone associated with Mance, for numerous reasons: take your pick! Anger/revenge, strategy, territory, troops, public execution (aka 'kudos'), information, etc etc etc (need I go on?)

I don't see Mance being flayed. To me it doesn't make sense to bring Mance back from the dead to flay or kill him. I think Mance knows if the wildlings discovers he's alive. They'll come to Winterfell. Which bring me back the King Beyond The Wall reference. He still sees himself as King. Again, he refers to Mel and the spear wives as whores. He calls Jon a bastard. Calls Stannis a false king. But calls Mance Raydor a king? That doesn't make sense. He would've referred to Mance as a false king as well. Doesn't matter what Ned did. Ned and Ramsay are vastly different people. Back to Ramsay. He wouldn't call Jon a bastard with him being a bastard himself. He hates the Snow reference. So he wouldn't call Jon a bastard.

[The Crow's Third Eye]

I don't see Mance being flayed. To me it doesn't make sense to bring Mance back from the dead to flay or kill him. I think Mance knows if the wildlings discovers he's alive. They'll come to Winterfell. Which bring me back the King Beyond The Wall reference. He still sees himself as King. Again, he refers to Mel and the spear wives as whores. He calls Jon a bastard. Calls Stannis a false king. But calls Mance Raydor a king? That doesn't make sense. He would've referred to Mance as a false king as well. Doesn't matter what Ned did. Ned and Ramsay are vastly different people. Back to Ramsay. He wouldn't call Jon a bastard with him being a bastard himself. He hates the Snow reference. So he wouldn't call Jon a bastard.

But he has played a part since he was brought back.His plan brought about the rescue of Theon and (f)Arya.

Why do you think this last thing? Ramsay only dislikes being called a bastard himself, and its quite common to redirect an insult you hate when aimed at you to somebody you want to frustrate. You see it all the time in real life. There is nothing to suggest he wouldn't call Jon a bastard, it shows his "superiority" as a legitimatized child that he can call Jon a bastard

[mrlukeduke]

On most of your replies you miss my point. Your responses has nothing to do with what I said. If the mannerlys annihilate the freys and stannis's men show up wearing Frey garb, Bolton is going to notice that. Bolton is the smartest man in Winterfell right now. Strange faces coming back to Winterfell. No familiar faces. And you think Bolton is just gonna say OK and go to bed? Not likely. Another reason why I think Ramsay did not send the letter is because the text said it was sealed with a smear of pink wax. I believe in the past he used the dreadfort stamp but I can't remember what chapter I read that in.

We agree to disagree.

I don't necessarily disagree with this, but I'm still convinced the letter was from Ramsay, so I think he WAS fooled.

I'm not even sure Roose makes it this far tbh. He might already be dead. I also think Roose was suspicious of Mance. There is a passage dedicated to this where Roose's cold eyes fall on "Abel", during a conversation about suspicion/murders/tension.

But even still, Roose can still be fooled by the Frey garb. Personally I'm not sure it even has to happen that way. I think it's more likely Ramsay comes back "victorious" to Winterfell with a Bolton force and some stragglers.

Just to clarify I'm not saying it's TRUE that Ramsay wrote it. I detest the word true/truth. Truth is subjective. Assumptions are objective. If we ASSUME Ramsay wrote the bastard/pink letter, things fall into place far more smoothly; there are fewer leaps of faith to be made. With Mance, there are so many leaps it hurts my brain.

I'm not saying it's impossible, obviously. Just that one must assume one or the other, then make the case (theory; explanation). No one's going to know for sure until the book comes out. But I find it hard to swallow that Ramsay cannot find out almost everything that has happened at the Wall via Mance.

[mrlukeduke]

I don't see Mance being flayed. To me it doesn't make sense to bring Mance back from the dead to flay or kill him. I think Mance knows if the wildlings discovers he's alive. They'll come to Winterfell. Which bring me back the King Beyond The Wall reference. He still sees himself as King. Again, he refers to Mel and the spear wives as whores. He calls Jon a bastard. Calls Stannis a false king. But calls Mance Raydor a king? That doesn't make sense. He would've referred to Mance as a false king as well. Doesn't matter what Ned did. Ned and Ramsay are vastly different people. Back to Ramsay. He wouldn't call Jon a bastard with him being a bastard himself. He hates the Snow reference. So he wouldn't call Jon a bastard.

To be fair, you have a point about flaying. Because he probably would have included a piece of skin if Mance was flayed. Although he specifically says he does not flay him, but clearly Mance (according to the letter text) is being tortured – even if "only" by being half freezed and likely starved in a cramped cage, plus the emotional torment of the skins of the brave wildling women. That's already pretty damn bad.

For me the answer to the riddle lies in Roose; where is he? Is he dead? Fled? Where to?

If Ramsay is in "collaboration with" Mance; then Bolton is surely in control here. Otherwise if it's the other way around there are so many jumps and missing pieces of the action that it's almost impossible to speculate what's happened. I mean Bolton is in more, not less, control of Winterfell once the Freys and Manderlys leave. Fewer mouths to feed, fewer enemies, and so on.

I just don't see Mance escaping Roose. Especially since you already agree that Roose can't be easily fooled!

[aryagonnakill#2]

Why do you think this last thing? Ramsay only dislikes being called a bastard himself, and its quite common to redirect an insult you hate when aimed at you to somebody you want to frustrate. You see it all the time in real life. There is nothing to suggest he wouldn't call Jon a bastard, it shows his "superiority" as a legitimatized child that he can call Jon a bastard

This is exactly what I was thinking.

[Quentyn Kartell]

But he has played a part since he was brought back.His plan brought about the rescue of Theon and (f)Arya.

Why do you think this last thing? Ramsay only dislikes being called a bastard himself, and its quite common to redirect an insult you hate when aimed at you to somebody you want to frustrate. You see it all the time in real life. There is nothing to suggest he wouldn't call Jon a bastard, it shows his "superiority" as a legitimatized child that he can call Jon a bastard

I'm just guessing. But judging by Theon's chapters where he describes how Ramsay hates being called Snow. That's the reason why I don't think he would call Jon bastard. And about Mance I just feel almost anybody could've been sent to Winterfell to rescue arya. There's gotta be a bigger purpose.