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Angalin

[TWoW Spoilers] Theon I, Part 5

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'That other thing' could be referring to loss of manhood in a less than literal way. . . On subsequent read through I tried keeping an eye out to get a better idea. Some things I've noticed:

My Reek. The kiss Ramsay gives him. Life-long companionship(previous Reek was with Ramsay since he was a babe). Horrible treatment to women. Presence during the wedding consummation. The previous Reek wearing women's apparel and perfume. . . I'm saying Ramsay could be. . . what he has over Reek/Theon is more than just physical torture thing, but like a domination fetish, master/slave. When Theon and Ramsay say Not even a man I took it as more of a mental thing, not literally. Theon's been raped, and especially the times like the Middle Ages, sodomy was a life-changer.

The original Reek, when was discovered and killed by Rodrik and his men, was defiling the body of a dead woman. If Ramsay is building Theon up as a replacement to the previous Reek, he wouldn't cut him or else they couldn't have their fun together. IDK, just something that caught my eye. Often times Theon describes Ramsay's voice as 'a lover's whisper.' Creeeeepy.

This concept also keeps the whole irony and redemption thing for Theon, as he was quite fond of sowing bastards in women. He prides himself on it at one point. If anything, this angle may even be more ironic.

ANYWAY, no more weewee thinking for me.. The idea that Stannis has Karstark's ravens and can send false information to WF is partly the reason if the letter IMO. I do believe Ramsay has Mance as well. Although the letter says Mance is kept warm with the spearwives' skins. That had to be a pretty quick skinning.

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'That other thing' could be referring to loss of manhood in a less than literal way. . . On subsequent read through I tried keeping an eye out to get a better idea. Some things I've noticed:

My Reek. The kiss Ramsay gives him. Life-long companionship(previous Reek was with Ramsay since he was a babe). Horrible treatment to women. Presence during the wedding consummation. The previous Reek wearing women's apparel and perfume. . . I'm saying Ramsay could be. . . what he has over Reek/Theon is more than just physical torture thing, but like a domination fetish, master/slave. When Theon and Ramsay say Not even a man I took it as more of a mental thing, not literally. Theon's been raped, and especially the times like the Middle Ages, sodomy was a life-changer.

I think this too, especially given his quote about the things he and Jeyne had been made to do in Ramsay's bed during the wedding night. That, to me, implies to each other and to Ramsay. However, I don't know that this precludes his also having been castrated as well, sadly.

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Craziest of crazy theories: the author of the letter is in fact Varys, in another devious attempt to spread chaos and bring about the collapse of the realm. Using his network of spies he gathers information on the situation at the wall and at Winterfell, and decides to give Jon that nudge over the edge...

Wildly improbable, of course, but I just wanted to put it in writing so that, if it somehow turns out to be true, you all proclaim me the one true god :cool4:

how about, LF knows about the piece of paper that makes Jon heir to everything Robb had. Of course LF would like Sansa to be heir to the north, so he quickly writes the pink letter and sends it to the Wall, in order to provoke chaos. We all know LF thrives on chaos

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'That other thing' could be referring to loss of manhood in a less than literal way. . . On subsequent read through I tried keeping an eye out to get a better idea. Some things I've noticed:

My Reek. The kiss Ramsay gives him. Life-long companionship(previous Reek was with Ramsay since he was a babe). Horrible treatment to women. Presence during the wedding consummation. The previous Reek wearing women's apparel and perfume. . . I'm saying Ramsay could be. . . what he has over Reek/Theon is more than just physical torture thing, but like a domination fetish, master/slave. When Theon and Ramsay say Not even a man I took it as more of a mental thing, not literally. Theon's been raped, and especially the times like the Middle Ages, sodomy was a life-changer.

The original Reek, when was discovered and killed by Rodrik and his men, was defiling the body of a dead woman. If Ramsay is building Theon up as a replacement to the previous Reek, he wouldn't cut him or else they couldn't have their fun together. IDK, just something that caught my eye. Often times Theon describes Ramsay's voice as 'a lover's whisper.' Creeeeepy.

This concept also keeps the whole irony and redemption thing for Theon, as he was quite fond of sowing bastards in women. He prides himself on it at one point. If anything, this angle may even be more ironic.

ANYWAY, no more weewee thinking for me.. The idea that Stannis has Karstark's ravens and can send false information to WF is partly the reason if the letter IMO. I do believe Ramsay has Mance as well. Although the letter says Mance is kept warm with the spearwives' skins. That had to be a pretty quick skinning.

I had never considered that Ramsay may have raped Theon (shocking given my username, I know). But now that I think about it it doesn't seem unlikely

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'That other thing' could be referring to loss of manhood in a less than literal way. . . On subsequent read through I tried keeping an eye out to get a better idea. Some things I've noticed:

My Reek. The kiss Ramsay gives him. Life-long companionship(previous Reek was with Ramsay since he was a babe). Horrible treatment to women. Presence during the wedding consummation. The previous Reek wearing women's apparel and perfume. . . I'm saying Ramsay could be. . . what he has over Reek/Theon is more than just physical torture thing, but like a domination fetish, master/slave. When Theon and Ramsay say Not even a man I took it as more of a mental thing, not literally. Theon's been raped, and especially the times like the Middle Ages, sodomy was a life-changer.

The original Reek, when was discovered and killed by Rodrik and his men, was defiling the body of a dead woman. If Ramsay is building Theon up as a replacement to the previous Reek, he wouldn't cut him or else they couldn't have their fun together. IDK, just something that caught my eye. Often times Theon describes Ramsay's voice as 'a lover's whisper.' Creeeeepy.

This concept also keeps the whole irony and redemption thing for Theon, as he was quite fond of sowing bastards in women. He prides himself on it at one point. If anything, this angle may even be more ironic.

ANYWAY, no more weewee thinking for me.. The idea that Stannis has Karstark's ravens and can send false information to WF is partly the reason if the letter IMO. I do believe Ramsay has Mance as well. Although the letter says Mance is kept warm with the spearwives' skins. That had to be a pretty quick skinning.

My first thought always went to Ramsay castrating Theon but I had not thought of Ramsay raing "Reek." This isn't fact right??? Is there any clues to this?

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I would definitely not rule it out. There's no end to Ramsay's depravity , and if it's the pain and torture that bring gratification, I can't see that the gender of his victim would matter much.

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I've always considered the possibility of Ramsay raping Theon, but it doesn't negate the possibility of him beiing castrated. Theon has gone through so much that I hope he isn't.

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One thing my theory doesn't account for is how Theon and/or Asha will fit into the battle sequence (and one of them will have to, since they are the only POVs there).

I'm quite sure Theon is fated to survive in the short term but I don't quite know how. I'm also a firm believer that Theon and Asha taking back the Seastone Chair is going to be a developing storyline (far too much groundwork has been laid to abandon it now).

So I'm working under those two assumptions.

There is something about the Weirwood on the island that only Asha knows about.

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There is something about the Weirwood on the island that only Asha knows about.

Is this in the text somewhere?

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Is this in the text somewhere?

Deduced by me from Asha's insistence that Stannis take Theon there himself (not her religion and not really his) and all the chatter to Theon from the Winterfell godswood and the ravens.

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I really really hope you are right, but I doubt it. That "I have no..." during the wedding night scene seemed pretty damning to me.

Referencing Seven Beauties severe starvation and stress can take the starch right out of a guy. However, that wouldnt show if Theon were undressed. Perhaps there are tattoos or bite marks, or flaying or some desecration of his manly parts that have left them nonfunctional, like flaying or (my nightmare) cutting it in half lengthwise. I dont like to think about it!

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I think we have to face the cold, hard truth that Theon no longer has a tally with which he could be whacking.

Yes, that truth may be cold, but it most likely is no longer hard

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I think we have to face the cold, hard truth that Theon no longer has a tally with which he could be whacking.

Indeed the Tally-man has tallied his banana.

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Poor Theon... at least he enjoyed himself for some time... tsctsc

I may sound sadistic, but I think he kind of deseved it...I just hated him so much for being a traitor...

Maybe this will make him think about it and really redeem himself. (IMO running with Jeyne Poole wasn't nearly enough)

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There is a part, i forget what page of the paperback, during the wedding at winterfell where Ramsay is asking Theon if he "his hard on was pressing against his laces" I don't think he'd ask that if he was cut in that manner. I think it is more a mental castration.

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Theon/Reek/Ramsay

1. Theon is no longer even a man, that has been emphasized very clearly in ADWD, including by Theon himself even after he discarded his Reek persona. He has been cut, we just need to accept that.

2. Theon may have been raped by Ramsay (indeed, it would have seemed no more than a minor inconvenience compared to his other difficulties), but Ramsay is probably more interested in master/slave domination than in sex per se. I wouldn't be surprised if he gets sexual gratification out of torture.

3. Ramsay does have a "special" relationship with Reek, which is more than a simple manifestation of his sadism/domination fetish. The first Reek reared him from childhood, and one of them "corrupted" the other, in Roose's words (or, more likely, they both corrupted each other). IMO Rams has been captivated by Theon's handsome features, legitimate high birth, natural arrogance, and the position of authority he had over Ramsay-Reek in Winterfell. Those were all a turn on for the Bastard (many sadists have a masochistic streak), so he wanted to "break" Theon and "make him his Reek" in a twisted game of "role reversal". Breaking his teeth with a hammer and cutting his manhood would be the way to go.

Now that Theon's escaped and is getting his old spirit back, Ramsay's furious for a number of reasons: not just spite, but also the frustration of his fetishes.

The letter

1. I believe the letter was written by Ramsay, for the following reasons:

A) Mance Rayder or Stannis would never write such a letter so long as Ramsay was still alive and kicking, for fear that Jon or whoever reads the letter at Castle Black really decides to give Ramsay what the letter demands - including Mance's own son, Val, Melisandre, Selyse and Shireen. That would have been a disaster and a fate worse than death, as both Mance and Stannis surely know.

B ) If Ramsay and the Boltons were defeated, again there is no reason for either Mance or Stannis to write this letter. Mance will get what he needs from Jon Snow following their deal; Stannis could simply command Jon to send these people to wherever he's now seated, and/or send messages to Selyse/Melisandre.

C) Furthermore, both Mance and Stannis are very aware of the Others' threat; they wouldn't risk stripping Castle Black of its defences by provoking the Lord Commander into heedless action against the Boltons, especially considering that any forces Jon may send will have to face the cruelty of winter and may perish en route without even reaching their destination.

D) The letter description doesn't mention Ramsay's spiky hand or a piece of skin, but it does have the pink wax of the Dreadfort and most importantly evokes in the characters who come in touch with it the particular "nasty", "evil" feeling associated with Ramsay's previous letters. Skin would be redundant anyway since Ramsay obviously has interrogated at least some of the spearwives and therefore has plenty of their skin available. The information contained in the letter is already threatening enough, without the need for a grisly physical token. The wording of the letter is also very characteristic of Ramsay, including the emphasis on "my Reek" and the fact that he refers to Jeyne as "bride" and not "Arya Stark" - neither Mance nor Stannis nor anyone except Ramsay, Roose, Theon and Jeyne herself know that "Arya" is a fake, and Theon so far did not tell anyone. But Ramsay knows that Jon would recognise Jeyne, so he doesn't waste breath claiming his bride is Arya.

2. At the same time, of course, the letter is probably filled with lies and half-truths. Ramsay is nothing if not cunning. He has already demonstrated an extraordinary ability to think and act fast even under mortal danger - his ruse with substituting the first Reek for himself and posing as the manservant was brilliant, especially considering he had nothing at his disposal except his wits. His attack on Roderik Cassel's force was masterfully executed as well, with the book noting that the Dreadfort men "had lesser numbers, but were better led". He takes Moat Cailin from the ironborn without a single casualty, only by properly using Theon/Reek. He baits Stannis with the "weakly defended" Dreadfort so as to smash him from the rear en route. Everything points towards Ramsay being a master of strategic and tactical deceit, ruse, feinting. As Paul Atreides remarked about Feyd-Rautha's martial style, "a feint within a feint within a feint".

3. So, if Ramsay is good at feints, why send Jon this letter? Why not, rather, lull him into a false sense of security while Bolton forces creep up on Caste Black, catching the Lord Commander unawares? I think the answer is as follows. The Freys were decimated at the "Battle of Ice" and Manderly went over to Stannis, but Ramsay has the spearwives, the Boltons still hold Winterfell, and Stannis is almost completely spent. Still, Roose can't risk leaving Winterfell, so he orders Ramsay to get Jeyne back, since obviously without "Arya" their hold on the North is weak. With the letter Ramsay hopes to lure Snow out of Castle Black and divide the Night Watch forces, taking CB while Jon struggles trying to reach Winterfell.

By the way, we know that a large portion of provisions at Winterfell comes from White Harbour (Manderly's ample provisions are always mentioned). IMO Wyman's probably poisoned them, so the Boltons aren't as well supplied as they think.

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^ I agree with many of your points, theon was obviously cut and the letter was obviously not from mance or stannis i never understood why people postulated that, however I believe you may be giving ramsey credit for roose's work. Obviously ramsey was clevar in staying alive in cok but I thought that roose even told theon that moat cailin was his idea, and I have a hard time believing that the karstark plot was ramsey. And I also think that more people know arya is fake than you have suggested. I have the suspicion that at least some of the northern lords know this, and my feeling on that comes from theon's repeatedly saying she doesnt even have the right color eyes. It seems he's saying that its not even a very close match.

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Theon/Reek/Ramsay

1. Theon is no longer even a man, that has been emphasized very clearly in ADWD, including by Theon himself even after he discarded his Reek persona. He has been cut, we just need to accept that.

2. Theon may have been raped by Ramsay (indeed, it would have seemed no more than a minor inconvenience compared to his other difficulties), but Ramsay is probably more interested in master/slave domination than in sex per se. I wouldn't be surprised if he gets sexual gratification out of torture.

3. Ramsay does have a "special" relationship with Reek, which is more than a simple manifestation of his sadism/domination fetish. The first Reek reared him from childhood, and one of them "corrupted" the other, in Roose's words (or, more likely, they both corrupted each other). IMO Rams has been captivated by Theon's handsome features, legitimate high birth, natural arrogance, and the position of authority he had over Ramsay-Reek in Winterfell. Those were all a turn on for the Bastard (many sadists have a masochistic streak), so he wanted to "break" Theon and "make him his Reek" in a twisted game of "role reversal". Breaking his teeth with a hammer and cutting his manhood would be the way to go.

Now that Theon's escaped and is getting his old spirit back, Ramsay's furious for a number of reasons: not just spite, but also the frustration of his fetishes.

I never really considered that Ramsay wanted to possess Theon for anything other than his own twisted idea of fun but it does make sense that he has a sexual interest in Theon as well. GRRM has left Theon's torture off the page but I think we will definitely see some of it on the screen since Alfie Allen is coming back for season three. We've also had the possible Ramsay audition video in which he appears to be about to commit rape on a person who seems male (he tells some guards to pull down his victims pants rather than remove their dress). There's a bit of speculation in there but it would add together. Certainly Ramsay enjoys sexual humiliation so I can't think that that wasn't part of Theon's torture.

I can't say I have a great deal of sympathy for Theon, in a horrible twist on his family words, he is only reaping what he has sown.

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