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brashcandy

From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa II

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See Rethinking Sansa I here. The links to the "Pawn to Player: Rereading Sansa" threads can also be found in the OP there. Please remember, this is a thread for constructive discussion and exploration on Sansa's character, past and future. The re-reading threads are highly recommended for those interested in an in-depth analysis of her arc.

If you love Sansa, and you love discussing all that relates to Sansa, even crackpots, this is the place for you. :)

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I've always been interested in this thread, but intimidated by the sheer volume of postage it contained.

Is it possible to get in on the ground floor, now? If I say that I think Sansa my end up as a sort-of Cersei 2.0, will that just be old hat?

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If I say that I think Sansa my end up as a sort-of Cersei 2.0, will that just be old hat?

:shocked:

Yes, because Sansa likes dresses... and so does Cersei! Clearly, their path to corruption and feminine vanity is clear! Lack of empathy, no remorse, etc.-- all these things are unimportant in determining female empathy! What matters is being conventionally feminine! The path to pure evil is clearly lined with frilly pink ruffles and hair bows!

Seriously, Sansa is nothing like Cersei, as is highlighted at numerous times in the text itself, and has been noted on earlier discussions about Sansa frequently. The fact that Cersei wants power and Sansa seems to want love, acceptence, and stability does not make the former evil and the latter "good" in my mind. However, Sansa's ability to empathize with others, compassion, and humanity clearly differentiate her from Cersei, and place her in the hero camp.

However, there is one aspect of their characterization that I think Cersei and Sansa do share-- both have shown a desire for a degree of autonomy and a desire to have a say in their own destiny. Both come under fire for this. Though Cersei does countless things worthy of scorn, it's fascinating (if dispiriting) to note how many threads on this forum are dedicated to unbraiding her for being a bad wife to Robert, for wanting power and independence, and for not wanting to get married again after his death. Meanwhile Sansa, who is generally accounted by her decriers as "weak" and "passive", is actually most commonly critisized and demonized for acts in which she boldly took her destiny and future into her own hands, in a way that feminist icon characters like Arya Stark never actually do.

Sansa-- unconsciously but undeniably-- rebebelled against the social norms that said a girl must obey her father/ patriarch when she decided she would disobey Ned Stark and proactively secure her own happiness with the boy she thought she loved. Here she both dared question the will of the patriarch, and acted in a way that allowed her to chose her own mate, something that goes utterly against the social strictures of Westeros. Not coincidentally, it is this very act that Sansa comes under so much fire for by readers. I've heard many condemn this act as unforgivable; even while acknolleging that Sansa had no idea that her plans would result in death or imprisonment or any sort of real punishment for Ned Stark. They are merely shocked and angry that Sansa "betrayed her father and her family for a dreamy prince", and endlessly berate her for this.

Sansa shows an undeniable knowledge of her own worth, as well as a certain pride and desire to control her own destiny at various points throughout the book. When Tywin assess her as "pliable" is is not corrrect-- or, not completely correct. She will externally go along with events, but retains an inner rebellion. And a need for autonomy and to have a say in her own future that is similar, in some way, to Cersei's own, despite the other countless differences in their characters. This desire shows through when Sansa (as I've mentioned), went to Joffrey and Cersei about Ned's choice, attempting to secure her own future happiness rather than having her fate dictated to her; when she refuses to kneel when being forced to marry Tyrion; when she admits she does not desire Tyrion, and probably never will; when she plans to tell Lysa Arryn that she doesn't want to marry little Robert, because that is not what her heart desires.

Interestingly, it is these acts that are most criticized by readers, and noted as evidence of Sansa's badness.

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I've always been interested in this thread, but intimidated by the sheer volume of postage it contained.

Is it possible to get in on the ground floor, now? If I say that I think Sansa my end up as a sort-of Cersei 2.0, will that just be old hat?

not old hat :) but it would be nice if you could expand on your thoughts.

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@Queen Cersei I: I think Sansa was taking Cersei as a role model, only she wanted to make the people / small folk love her ( I wonder how that´s coming along?). I think I project a lot of the greatness I see in Catelyn onto Sansa, but I think she would be a one of the best rulers. And I don´t know whats wrong with fashion, it´s just one aspect of the trappings of power.

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Anyway... yay once again for the new Sansa thread! :)

In the previous thread, there was some discussion of Sansa's sexuality. Lyanna Stark made a comment that I thought was interesting, and here I'm going to use it to lead into a discussion of GRRM's treatment of female sexuality in general in these books, and more importantly, how that might color how Sansa's sexuality is treated.

Lyanna Stark said:

I agree with you. Coming of age stories about men are thirteen to the dozen, but it's rare to find a male author spending any time on the sexual awakening of women.

Really? Because it seems to me wherever there is lovely, nubile young woman “physically developing” and learning to “embrace her sexuality” there is a drooling middle aged male author yearning to “get in.” (So to speak.)

More seriously, in my personal experience, it’s common enough to “find a male author spending any time on the sexual awakening of women.” What is truly rare, though, is finding a male author spending time writing well on the sexual awakening of a female. All too often, in my experience, when men take on the subject of female sexual awakening, the experience becomes an opportunity for tired clichés or, more commonly, objectifying, and ogling their subject. They present their female protagonist (inevitably young, nubile, and gorgeous) not as human being first and foremost, but as a sex object, through which they seem to be fulfilling many of their own sexual fantasies. (I am exaggerating slightly here, but not all that much.) When men write coming of age from a female perspective, the trap (in my experience) is generally objectifying and sexualizing these women/ girls rather than portraying them as human beings first and foremost.

I’d say that GRRM by no means completely avoids falling into this tendency. For instance, he has described the wedding night of 13 year old Danerys, in which she is screwed by a grown man she has been sold to, as one of the most romantic scenes in the book. After some weeks of being brutally and painfully screwed by her adult husband whom she was sold to, Danerys comes to adore the sex, and happily allows Drogo to fuck her whenever, wherever. Later she gets so horny she simply must engage in gratuitous lesbian action, only to decide unequivocally nothing can satisfy her like the all mighty penis. Her breasts are at times needlessly described and dwelt upon, in a way that seems to do little service to the plot, characterization, or anything save for objectifying Dany.

Similarly, GRRM falls into this trap quite frequently with Arrianne Martell. (More so, IMO, than any other female character.) She is, on the surface, as you say, a woman in charge of her sexuality. However, there are numerous scenes and instances that I take issue with. It seems to me she is sexualized (and objectified) at numerous points; and not in a way that adds to her characterization or storyline in any meaningful way-- it seems Arrianne’s anatomy is described and ogled for no other purpose than… well, ogling. For instance, the following is one such example:

“I can tend to my own honor.” She touched a finger to her breast, drawing it slowly round her nipple. “And to my own pleasures, if need be. … Seeing her there upon the featherbed, smiling that wicked smile, toying with her breast. Was there ever a woman with nipples so large or so responsive? He could hardly look at them without wanting to grab them, to suckle them until they were hard and wet and shiny.

And then a page later:

“…the round ripe breasts with their huge dark nipples”

“… her breasts filled his hands. He felt her nipples stiffen as his thumbs brushed over them.”

In my eyes, the following holds very little point, and is a rather sleazy and gratuitous example of Arrianne being objectified. Of course, I have no problem with breast descriptions, however, there is a fine line between portraying a woman as a sexual (and attractive) human being and “sexualizing” her as an object. I’d say that GRRM’s prose veers far into the latter, with Arrianne as well as with some other females.

Even with Sansa, this tendency is, on some occassions, present. He begins giving us descriptions of her growing breasts at age 12. These focus less on Sansa’s own feelings about her growing/ changing body, far more on the body itself. For instance, at one point Sansa reflects that she’s caught grown men staring at her breasts. This is something that many of us here, who’ve been ogled at 12 by grown men, can probably relate to. However, rather than the familiar mix of shame, annoyance, anger, embarrassment, and resentment, Sansa does not feel anything. Or, if she does, her feelings are not mentioned. Simply the fact that her breasts have grown so large her gowns are tight and grown men are ogling them. It’s as though Sansa’s breasts have been mentioned just for the sake of describing them, which seems rather off putting to me.

Sansa has also often been, at numerous times, defined by her status as a hot girl and a virgin in a way that seems to go far beyond the norms of her time itself, and seems to have to do with the author himself. You praise GRRM for not glorifying virginity as “good and pure,” but I think he has fallen into a far more common trap for men and women today—defining women by their sexual status. What they’ve done, whom they’ve done it with, etc.

Basically, thus far GRRM has been okay with Sansa, with the exception of some lapses regarding describing her “budding breasts.” However, personally I hope he doesn’t go the same route in portraying her sexuality as he did with females like Danerys and Arrianne. Though I love that sexually active girls/ women are presented positively, and shown voicing their needs and desires, something often rings false (in my eyes) during careful readings of Danerys and Arrianne’s chapters. Describing their sexuality, it seems it is only half characterization, half male fantasy inspired, mildly unbelievable sexual romps/ adventures/ breast descriptions.

There are also many “rules” in what GRRM portrays as positive in female sexuality that he simply does not seem to hold for the men. For instance, you mentioned earlier that you were unnerved by the negative portrayal of Cersei’s sexuality, and feared that these books were going to put forth “chaste” women as the ideal. Women like Arrianne, Asha, and Dany proved this false.

To me the problematic issue is the extensive amount of time spent on Cersei’s sexual behavior. More time in AFFC is spent describing how she gave guys hand jobs than is dedicated to her actual crimes, which are often mentioned in passing. For instance, a sample:

“Cersei’s fingers traced their path across his cheek. “You have a bold tongue, ser. You will make me forget myself again.”

“Good.” Ser Osney caught her hand and kissed her fingers roughly. “My sweet queen.”

“You are a wicked man,” the queen whispered, “and no true knight, I think.” She let him touch her breasts through the silk of her gown. “Enough.”

“It’s isn’t. I want you.”

“You’ve had me.”

“Only once.” He grabbed her left breast again and gave it a clumsy squeeze.

“One good night for one good night. You did me a valiant service, and have had your reward.” Cersei walked her fingers up his laces. She could feel him stiffening through his breeches.”

(It goes on basically in this vein for another two ½ pages.)

“She wanted to see if it was as easy with a woman as it had always been with Robert. Ten thousand of your children perished on my palm, Your Grace, she thought, slipping a third finger into Myr. Whilst you snored, I would lick your sons off my face and fingers one by one, all those pale, sticky princes. You claimed your rights, my lord, but in the darkness I would eat your heirs.”

“Osney touched her golden hair. “The thing is, the best lies have some truth in 'em… to give ‘em flavor, as it were. And you want me to go tell them how I fucked a queen…..”

She almost slapped his face. Almost. But she had gone too far, and their was too much at stake….She turned her head and caught Ser Osney’s hand with her own, kissing his fingers. They were rough and hard….

Cersei wrapped her arms around his neck. “I would not want it said that I made a liar of you,” she whispered in a husky voice. “ Give me an hour, and meet me in my bedchamber.”

“We’ve waited long enough.” He thrust his fingers inside the bodice of her gown and yanked, and the silk parted with a ripping sound so loud that Cersei was afraid that half of the Red keep must have heard it. “Take off the rest before I tear that too,” he said. “You can keep the crown on. I like you in the crown.”

Okay, so portraying highly sexed and sexually active women proves that GRRM is okay with sexual females. However, what’s the point of the above? He seems hung up on demonizing Cersei’s sexual behavior to an extensive, even disturbing degree. Here, GRRM portrays women using sex to manipulate men and being unfaithful to their husbands/ boyfriends as nothing short of Pure Evil. Meanwhile, when LF screws a woman to get what he wants, it is the woman he goes to bed with, Lysa Tully, who is portrayed as the wicked grotesque, with LF coming of fairly well.

Arrianne, who is portrayed somewhat positively, also hammers in this message home. After scenes of intricately describing her large nippled melon breasts, GRRM portrays her plan (to crown Mrycella) as foolish, destructive, and utterly wrong. Arrianne, like Cersei, objects to the official social strictures that deny women power or property, yet when she tries to go up against them, she actually ends up doing great damage to an innocent girl (Myrcella.) Arrianne’s plan, formulated by her and dependent upon her sexual manipulations, fails miserably, and ends in the death of her lover and the maiming of an innocent girl. (And came dangerously close to creating an international incident.)

When she is imprisoned, she tries to escape numerous times, her attempts ending in failure and humiliation each time. (It is strongly implied that like Cersei, Arrianne is not nearly so smart as she thinks she is.) In the end, it turns out her daddy knows best, and avoided telling her everything because (as he notes) she’d blab it to Tyene and others. However, he’s had a plan for her all along, and she grows up by listening to him, recognizing the folly of her using sex to get ahead and manipulating men, and recognizing that daddy knows best. Currently, now that she’s gotten smart/ learned her lesson, she has submitted to her wiser daddy/ patriarch and is sending him ravens so her can tell her what to do and command her in everything with his naturally greater wisdom, as the gods intended.

Arrianne’s storyline may present her as a woman in charge of her sexuality, however, it could also be seen as one part drooling objectification, one part sexist lesson. Arrianne’s storyline hammers in the “women using sex to get ahead is evil, destructive, stupid, and will result destruction, failure, and suffering of innocent people.”

Similarly, the way Dany is treated invokes some objectification, as well as male fantasy, WRT her learning to adore the sex with the man she was sold to at 13. And falling in love with the man whose painful sexual interferences caused her to weep and cry out in pain.

In the end, I feel apprehensive about GRRM tackling the subject of Sansa’s sexuality. On the one hand, Sansa has shown a desire for love and sex in the past (her desire for the latter has been much subtler, but undeniably present.) It seems what she wants more than anything now is a loving relationship with a man who loves her for herself, and friends who understand, care for, and support her. On the other hand, though, I can’t say I’d be thrilled for Sansa to be treated in the same manner as Arrianne, Dany, and some other, more minor characters have been treated WRT their sexuality.

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@Queen Cersei I: I think Sansa was taking Cersei as a role model, only she wanted to make the people / small folk love her ( I wonder how that´s coming along?).

I never saw Sansa as truly trying to emulate Cersei; from the beginning she has shown an clear admiration for, and a desire to emulate, her mother. The thing that I saw as connecting Sansa and Cersei was the desire of both women for a certain degree of autonomy and say in their own destinies. Of course, Sansa has many other needs and desires-- for security, freedom, friends she can love and trust, genuine romantic love with a male partner to whom she is attracted and who loves her for herself, etc.

I think I project a lot of the greatness I see in Catelyn onto Sansa, but I think she would be a one of the best rulers.

I think that remains unclear at this point. It appears that Sansa definitely has the potential to be a great behind the scenes political operator a la LF and the Queen of Thorns. But whether or not these qualities add up to definite leadership potential (which is a rather different thing) remains to be seen. I'm also not sure how happy Sansa would be in such a position.

And I don´t know whats wrong with fashion, it´s just one aspect of the trappings of power.

Absolutely nothing is wrong with fashion; my words were sarcastic. I was joking about the fact that frequently (imo), Sansa is harshly criticized for being conventionally feminine, which is, in the eyes of some poster, inseperable from being shallow/ insipid.

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not old hat :) but it would be nice if you could expand on your thoughts.

Sorry, I stepped out for a moment. What I mean is that, Sansa has now spent most of the series in the power of players of the Game of Thrones (first Cersei, then Littlefinger). I expect that, before the end of the series, she will at least attempt to take her fate into her own hands, and I imagine that this will take place as Sansa's emergence as a player in her own right, just like others here presumably do. Without knowing it, she has been preparing for this througout the series. By observing and growing to understand the actions of her captors, she has been training for the game, and some of Littlefinger's statements in Feast suggest that he intends to accelerate this process.

Now, Martin has gone out of his way, on many occasions, to tell us that Sansa is beautiful. And our experience tells us that this can be an asset, in the Game of Thrones. Moreover, Sansa has been through several traumatic near-sexual experiences, and this, combined with the generally traumatic nature of her life since that day at Baelor's, suggests to me that she may end up very emotionally detached, both in general, and from her sex drive, specifically. In light of this, I would not be surprised that Sansa's emergence as a player may involve a Cersei-esque willingness to use sex as tool.

I would like to clarify that I would not view this as a moral failing, on her part. In fact, when I say Cersei 2.0, I mean it literally - as in, a better version of Cersei. Both morally, and practically (as in, a better player of the Game).

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<snip> It appears that Sansa definitely has the potential to be a great behind the scenes political operator a la LF and the Queen of Thorns. <snip>.

I don´t see it this way, I actually see Sansa as a potential figurehead / beacon (not in the sense of being a front ) to rally the people for a common cause (family duty honour), I don´t see her as the conspirering type. I hope she just picks up enough to fend off Little Finger. And I hope the people of Westeros get sick of swords, and if not - she still has Sandor.

ETA: Why did GRRM have to make her "bad at Numbers"?

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And Tormund, thanks for clarifying. You've raised some really interesting points, which I will respond to later on, unless of course my more able cohorts who frequent the thread do it for me. :)

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... Sansa has been through several traumatic near-sexual experiences, and this, combined with the generally traumatic nature of her life since that day at Baelor's, suggests to me that she may end up very emotionally detached, both in general, and from her sex drive, specifically. In light of this, I would not be surprised that Sansa's emergence as a player may involve a Cersei-esque willingness to use sex as tool...

In the last Sansa chapter Littlefinger clearly wants Sansa to use sex as a tool - she has got to make Harry the Heir want to marry her, no doubt this will involve many a coy glance and a lifting of the hemline to reveal a quick flash of her ankle, but on the other hand she's blushing when Miranda Royce asks if she is still a maiden. This isn't necessarily an area in which she feels confident. Besides which the Margaery Tyrell school of it is better for a ruler to be loved than to be feared I suspect will have confirmed her in following her Father's leadership footsteps.

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In fact, when I say Cersei 2.0, I mean it literally - as in, a better version of Cersei. Both morally, and practically (as in, a better player of the Game).

I think the differences you site here are too great to give Sansa the title 'Cersei 2.0'. There are plenty of players in the game... you seem to be connecting her specifically to Cersei because she might someday utilize similar sexual tactics. Personally, I hope she never becomes quite that jaded.

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Don´t get me wrong, Queen Cersei I, if I had it my way people like Sam an Missandei would rule, but the people of Westeros would never accept them ( neither would they be accepted today ), but I think an inspiring personality like Sansa could pave the way. People could love her ( as they wouldn´t love Tyrion. And his issues with that and his general self loathing would make him unfit for ruling ) and I see the potential of compassion and understanding ( if she´s a bit like Catelyn. Catelyn was a walking history book of Westeros and she had a great understanding of the mechanics of power.).

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I think the differences you site here are too great to give Sansa the title 'Cersei 2.0'. There are plenty of players in the game... you seem to be connecting her specifically to Cersei because she might someday utilize similar sexual tactics. Personally, I hope she never becomes quite that jaded.

Actually, I hope so, as well. But her life has been really shitty, and I don't think it's in the cards.

I connect her to Cersei because Sansa is supposed to be very beautiful - perhaps the only trait she might share with Cersei, but it means that there will be a whole suite of 'moves' available to her that would not be available to a Varys, for instance. Also, because Cersei was the first player she got to watch in action - I don't think Ned counts, personally.

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Actually, I hope so, as well. But her life has been really shitty, and I don't think it's in the cards. I connect her to Cersei because Sansa is supposed to be very beautiful - perhaps the only trait she might share with Cersei, but it means that there will be a whole suite of 'moves' available to her that would not be available to a Varys, for instance. Also, because Cersei was the first player she got to watch in action - I don't think Ned counts, personally.

I think there's more hope than you think. Looking at it simply from a practical point of view, Cersei's model for using sex isn't very effective. In fact, Cersei's sexual political plays seem to undermine her more often than not. I think Sansa is intelligent and thoughtful enough to see the pitfalls of Cersei's model.

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I think there's more hope than you think. Looking at it simply from a practical point of view, Cersei's model for using sex isn't very effective. In fact, Cersei's sexual political plays seem to undermine her more often than not. I think Sansa is intelligent and thoughtful enough to see the pitfalls of Cersei's model.

I don't know if I agree with you. My impression is that Sansa's transition into Alayne has been characterized, in part, by her being gradually cut off from the outside world, and eventually placed in the power of Littlefinger. I don't trust Littlefinger.

I think future events have the potential to be very dark, but at the least should be a stark (pardon the pun) lesson in the game of thrones. The thing is, I do think Sansa has a chance to win that game. This may or may not end up involving sex, but I think it will.

If Sansa weds Harry, then a good sexual relationship can only help put her in a position of power. This need not even be sinister. Her own mother and father were arranged to be wed. Well, mother and uncle, technically.

Unfortunately, I think it is also possible that Sansa may end up having sex with (or getting raped by) Baelish, though I want to stress that I do not want this to happen. Nevertheless, in that case, a distinct advantage Sansa would have would be the possibility of making Petyr think that she loves him - just like Cat always should have (in his head).

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People want to be presented by people that show them at their best, they want to bask in the glory of their leaders. I don´t like it, but it means that people would accept an ugly or bookish /physically weak leader only when s/.he´s forced on them (see Bloodraven). That is why the walk of shame was so damaging to Cersei.

As to GRRM being sexist in his depiction, I think Queen Cersei I has a point, but is exaggerating it. I think GRRM is very aware of the perception by majority, and playing with it. For example, in the interview, where he mentions that he views Dany´s wedding scene as very romantic, his descriptions seem very superficial and attention - seeking to me. Later in the interview he becomes much more serious and contemplative. ( I wonder what words he´d found for the scene then) I think he used the Silver incident (Dany being a natural rider) and the comperably tender wedding night to keep the readers identifying with Dany. (Fearing to much hardship would put them off. Dany is already detached from the story as it is, only Jorah keeps a connection.) But then he rows back and shows how hard this forced marriage really is. Unpleasant forced sex ( I´d call it rape, but I blame Viserys) with no communication, due to Dany being forced to please her husband by her brother and Drogo´s limited language skills ( No?). He needs to do this to show Dany´s empowerment arc which seemingly culminates in the dragon hatching, only Dany is now finding out, that there is more to emancipation than obtaining an uncontrollable weapon of mass destruction.

He´s also having some counter images planted in Tormund and Brown Ben Plumm, who are "reduced" to their member, also there are males like Hoster the hostage who are regarded worthless. "...that´s what he gave you? ...never mind how tall he is..."

And the relationships of Arianne - Arys and Lysa - Petyr are all in the eye of the reader. In my view Lysa and Arys where pittyfull victims of Petyr and Arianne using their sexual power over them.

ETA: I´m really not good at analising literature (not even in german), sorry.

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The thing is, I do think Sansa has a chance to win that game. This may or may not end up involving sex, but I think it will. If Sansa weds Harry, then a good sexual relationship can only help put her in a position of power. This need not even be sinister. Her own mother and father were arranged to be wed. Well, mother and uncle, technically. Unfortunately, I think it is also possible that Sansa may end up having sex with (or getting raped by) Baelish, though I want to stress that I do not want this to happen. Nevertheless, in that case, a distinct advantage Sansa would have would be the possibility of making Petyr think that she loves him - just like Cat always should have (in his head).

Ah... I thought you were referring to the specific way that Cersei uses sex to exert political power (what I was calling the Cersei model). To me that model is characterized by having sex with lackeys to ensure their loyalty while they perform clandestine tasks for you.

The best westerosi example of using sex the way you describe Sansa potentially doing with Littlefinger might actually come from Littlefinger himself (he pretty much does that exact thing to Lysa).

I guess I don't really understand what you're trying to say...

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Ah... I thought you were referring to the specific way that Cersei uses sex to exert political power (what I was calling the Cersei model). To me that model is characterized by having sex with lackeys to ensure their loyalty while they perform clandestine tasks for you. The best westerosi example of using sex the way you describe Sansa potentially doing with Littlefinger might actually come from Littlefinger himself (he pretty much does that exact thing to Lysa). I guess I don't really understand what you're trying to say...

I mean to say that the time Sansa has spent in the power of Cersei and Baelish may mold her into a person best suited to play like (and possibly best) Cersei and Baelish.

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