From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa II

[Nine of Spades]

Im sort of curious about something here, why should asymetric human physiology produce symetric attitudes/norms toward sex?

Take for instance Robert Baratheon and Cersei Lannister. Both engage in extra marital affairs. In the case of Robert, his affair presents only a very minor threat to the well being of Cersei's offspring. Conversely, Cersei's infidelity leads to a very direct threat and worsening of the situation of Robert Baratheon's offspring, none of whom enjoy any of the material or financial support that Cersei's children do.

Similar assymetry can be observed with regard to rape or promiscuity, where women face far greater consequences then men.

Given this assymmetry, isnt it reasonable to conclude that sexual norms and mores should develop that take them into account and be similarly assymetric?

[Kittykatknits]

We'll forward them all the FPTP re-read ones and cross our fingers :)

A topic that I'm interesting in discussing again is Sansa's marriage to Tyrion. Just what do you guys think she ultimately took away from that experience?

I wonder about her marriage to Tyrion quite a bit.

Her primary take away from it, I have to agree with Grail King as much as it pains me to say it. She's a piece of meat for men to fight over. As she said, they want her for her claim. Who she is and what she want really doesn't matter.

I think the purpose of the marriage was for Sansa to understand this, plot armor against LF's plans, a reason to get both her and Tyrion out of KL, and give us another POV showing her during her time in KL.

I think the marriage as a plot point will be resolved before the end of the series. How it is resolved is one of my biggest fears for her.

[Lyanna Stark]

We'll forward them all the FPTP re-read ones and cross our fingers :)

A topic that I'm interesting in discussing again is Sansa's marriage to Tyrion. Just what do you guys think she ultimately took away from that experience?

I actually think it's mostly plot armour, too, although it could be the "ultimate" clincher that makes Sansa reject a traditional married life for good. In the end it will depend on whether or not it gets annulled, but as both Tyrion and Sansa are described as people who desire to be loved, it would be extra tragic to shove them together in a miserable marriage for ever. Unfortunately I think it depends more on Tyrion's final fate than Sansa's, as I really believe both Sansa and Arya will be needed to rebuild the Stark family and Winterfell, plus both have been basically put through hell, then put in "education", while Tyrion entered to story as a more complete character.

I'm not hiding on LJ promise, I've just had that account for about a hundred years and not used it much. :) I'll poke you or make myself more "obvious", hehe.

Im sort of curious about something here, why should asymetric human physiology produce symetric attitudes/norms toward sex?

I'm not even sure what you are trying to debate here or whether or not this thread is the place for it. It's probably better placed either in one of the threads debating sexualisation or even the "rebellious daughters" thread, which touches upon attitudes towards sex.

[femfatalatron]

why should asymetric human physiology produce symetric attitudes/norms toward sex?

Yeah, nice try.

These asymetries (in physiology and norms) matter most in societies that do inheritance of accumulated property along male lines.

Where women own the land (as in various traditional SE Asian societies) as pass it to their daughters, women aren't nearly as strictly controlled, because hey, you can always tell who someone's mother is.

Where property isn't accumulated (as in various hunter-gatherer societies) marital fidelity tends to matter very little. "Sex at Dawn" is pretty cool read on this topic. Unclear patrimony is usually fine since kids will have multiple father-ish figures in their social group.

Asymmetric treatment of men's and women's sexuality doesn't come directly and inevitably from differences in our plumbing, it comes from the collective and NOT inevitable decisions we make about how to structure our societes; usually it has a lot to do with property and who gets it.

Sorry for the derail, but justifying medieval gender norms as natural and inevitable is silly and hopefully a bit of discussion on that topic is still at least a little bit relevant. I think we're all pretty crystal clear how sex/reproduction and property are intertwined in these books.

[Winter's Knight]

Yeah, nice try.

These asymetries (in physiology and norms) matter most in societies that do inheritance of accumulated property along male lines.

Where women own the land (as in various traditional SE Asian societies) as pass it to their daughters, women aren't nearly as strictly controlled, because hey, you can always tell who someone's mother is.

Where property isn't accumulated (as in various hunter-gatherer societies) marital fidelity tends to matter very little. "Sex at Dawn" is pretty cool read on this topic. Unclear patrimony is usually fine since kids will have multiple father-ish figures in their social group.

Asymmetric treatment of men's and women's sexuality doesn't come directly and inevitably from differences in our plumbing, it comes from the collective and NOT inevitable decisions we make about how to structure our societes; usually it has a lot to do with property and who gets it.

Sorry for the derail, but justifying medieval gender norms as natural and inevitable is silly and hopefully a bit of discussion on that topic is still at least a little bit relevant. I think we're all pretty crystal clear how sex/reproduction and property are intertwined in these books.

There is evidence for this in the books-notice how Dorne, having an equal rights approach to inheritance, has women enjoying far greater freedom (sexual and otherwise) than the other six kingdoms.

[Nine of Spades]

Yeah, nice try.

These asymetries (in physiology and norms) matter most in societies that do inheritance of accumulated property along male lines.

Where women own the land (as in various traditional SE Asian societies) as pass it to their daughters, women aren't nearly as strictly controlled, because hey, you can always tell who someone's mother is.

Where property isn't accumulated (as in various hunter-gatherer societies) marital fidelity tends to matter very little. "Sex at Dawn" is pretty cool read on this topic. Unclear patrimony is usually fine since kids will have multiple father-ish figures in their social group.

First, how is a matrilineal society equitable? Women would seem to have a far higher degree of reproductive certainty then men. That doesnt seem equitable to me.

So why would there be a divergence as societies moved away from a hunter gatherer model? What would be the cause, and what would be the comapritive advantage? I would think that if the drift were random, the overal shift would be mild, but instead you see a very dramatic shift toward patrimony. Like it or hate it, that shift isnt random. In fact, it very may be tied to the prevelence of warfare, which looking at westeros, would indicate that Westeros would have a very patriarchal world view.

Asymmetric treatment of men's and women's sexuality doesn't come directly and inevitably from differences in our plumbing, it comes from the collective and NOT inevitable decisions we make about how to structure our societes; usually it has a lot to do with property and who gets it.

Sorry for the derail, but justifying medieval gender norms as natural and inevitable is silly and hopefully a bit of discussion on that topic is still at least a little bit relevant. I think we're all pretty crystal clear how sex/reproduction and property are intertwined in these books.

Who said Im justifying anything? I made a point about sexual assymetry effecting norms and mores. We are talking about a medieval society in Westeros though, so it would seem to me that Martin's characters should reflect a medieval worldview. That doesnt mean that it would be a statement on gender equality, just that the setting would effect the type and expression of the characters sexuality that you would expect in a patriarchal world.

Tying that back to Sansa, I dont think her place and growth as a character is going to be tied heavily to her sexuality at all. Shes unlikely to feel comfortable using sex as a weapon a la Cersei given her attitudes in general and the society she lives in. Its far more likely she will use manipulations more similar to the one she performed on Robin coming down the mountain. She defined the moement in ways that Robin got the positive affirmation he wanted from her by doing what she needed him to do.

In terms of Littlefinger, I dont see sex as being the driving motivator, but a more broad based love/acceptance. He mooned over Catelyn even though it was a non-sexual relationship.There is little doubt in my mind that Sansa could manipulate littlefinger quite easily with the promises of affection and gratitude, the trick is to do it in such a way that destroys him or gets Sansa what she wants. Sansa's biggest problem is that at this stage she has a very murky idea of what it is she in fact wants. Until she decides what she wants, others will drag her around.

[Lyanna Stark]

You know, not to be a downer, but you want to debate matrilineal societies in general, please take it to General Chatter as this is not really the place for it.

In terms of Littlefinger, I dont see sex as being the driving motivator, but a more broad based love/acceptance. He mooned over Catelyn even though it was a non-sexual relationship.There is little doubt in my mind that Sansa could manipulate littlefinger quite easily with the promises of affection and gratitude, the trick is to do it in such a way that destroys him or gets Sansa what she wants. Sansa's biggest problem is that at this stage she has a very murky idea of what it is she in fact wants. Until she decides what she wants, others will drag her around.

From Cat's perspective it's not a sexual relationship, but we know for certain that from Littlefinger's perspective, it was a sexual relationship. LF also petitioned Cersei to marry Sansa after Ned's beheading, so to claim that he does not want sex from Sansa is patently false. Sure, her rank and her ability to work as an ersatz Cat are very important factors, but to fulfill her role in his dream come true, she'll need to take Cat's place as his prize girl, with everything that entails.

[Elba the Intoner]

Regarding the purpose of Tyrion's and Sansa's marriage, I think there is more to it than just a plot device for keeping her from getting married again soon and just showing how she is being used for her claim. I mentioned it once before on this thread but there is a lot of unfinished business between Tyrion and LF and Tyrion and the Vale. Right now he's far away from that and it doesn't look like he'll ever get back, but if he comes to Westeros with Dany it could become important again. Also, if LF's comment about the three queens does mean he recognizes that Dany is becoming a factor, (I am sure he knows about her), that could play into this dynamic as well. I don't want Tyrion and Sansa to stay married to each other as it made both of them miserable, but I could see them teaming up against LF in some way.

[pamparius]

Sansa is her mother's daughter. I don't see much of Cersei there, but I do see a lot of Cat and no small amount of Ned.

[brashcandy]

From Cat's perspective it's not a sexual relationship, but we know for certain that from Littlefinger's perspective, it was a sexual relationship. LF also petitioned Cersei to marry Sansa after Ned's beheading, so to claim that he does not want sex from Sansa is patently false. Sure, her rank and her ability to work as an ersatz Cat are very important factors, but to fulfill her role in his dream come true, she'll need to take Cat's place as his prize girl, with everything that entails.

Indeed. LF actually brags about taking Cat's and Lysa's maidenheads, and the kissing and inappropriate touching of Sansa are clear indicators that he's steadily preparing her to accept an intimate relationship with him.

[Grail King]

Sansa is her mother's daughter. I don't see much of Cersei there, but I do see a lot of Cat and no small amount of Ned.

See, I say she's more her father's daughter, she's reserved and dutiful, she will balance out on her mother's side I think later if her political and womanly knowledge comes to the fore.

[Nine of Spades]

From Cat's perspective it's not a sexual relationship, but we know for certain that from Littlefinger's perspective, it was a sexual relationship. LF also petitioned Cersei to marry Sansa after Ned's beheading, so to claim that he does not want sex from Sansa is patently false. Sure, her rank and her ability to work as an ersatz Cat are very important factors, but to fulfill her role in his dream come true, she'll need to take Cat's place as his prize girl, with everything that entails.

Littlefinger wants it to be a sexual relationship, yes., but it is not. The Tully he does have a sexual relationship with he actualy seems to hold in contempt. Cat at no point has to indulge him or give hope to his fantasies to feed this.

What I mean by it not being a sexual relationship is that Sansa does not need to use sex to manipulate him, any more then Cat needed to use sex to get Littlefinger to do all sorts of crazy things. In fact giving into Littlefingers sexual advances may if anything simply cause him to be less malleable as reality does not match the fantasy. Withholding affection and keeping a distance I think is far more likely to drive him to extreme action. Morever while there is a crepy sexual subcurrent to his interactions with Sansa, I think in Littlefinger's fantasy world, he wasnt Sansa to be his loving daughter, a living indication of his (dellusional) relationship with Catelyn. So there are things that she can give him well short of sex.

And ultimately thats the thing about using sex/seduction as a weapon. Its only needed if it creates a need that the seducer can use to manipulate the seducee. In the case of Littlefinger, its already clear hes deeply obsessed with Sansa. She already has the hook by which she can manipulate him, its just a question of how to do so.

[brashcandy]

Nine of Spades, Littlefinger believes he slept with Catelyn. His obsession with Catelyn was very much predicated on a sexual desire for her, which he has now shifted to her daughter. With regard to the relationship between Sansa and LF, I would say that he is the one trying to use sexual tactics to control and seduce her, not the other way around. Sansa is hardly at liberty to withhold affection from her loving father is she? So as to how she will manipulate LF eventually, I suppose she'll simply have to become a better game player.

[Kittykatknits]

I actually think it's mostly plot armour, too, although it could be the "ultimate" clincher that makes Sansa reject a traditional married life for good. In the end it will depend on whether or not it gets annulled, but as both Tyrion and Sansa are described as people who desire to be loved, it would be extra tragic to shove them together in a miserable marriage for ever. Unfortunately I think it depends more on Tyrion's final fate than Sansa's, as I really believe both Sansa and Arya will be needed to rebuild the Stark family and Winterfell, plus both have been basically put through hell, then put in "education", while Tyrion entered to story as a more complete character.

Regarding the purpose of Tyrion's and Sansa's marriage, I think there is more to it than just a plot device for keeping her from getting married again soon and just showing how she is being used for her claim. I mentioned it once before on this thread but there is a lot of unfinished business between Tyrion and LF and Tyrion and the Vale. Right now he's far away from that and it doesn't look like he'll ever get back, but if he comes to Westeros with Dany it could become important again. Also, if LF's comment about the three queens does mean he recognizes that Dany is becoming a factor, (I am sure he knows about her), that could play into this dynamic as well. I don't want Tyrion and Sansa to stay married to each other as it made both of them miserable, but I could see them teaming up against LF in some way.

The marriage between them both will play out in some shape or form, I just don't know how. If they team up against LF, I'd be ok with that. If Sansa's fate is merely to become a lady wife for Tyrion, I think much of her story arc that we have seen so far will have been for naught. Keeping them together would not be bittersweet, it would just be tragic.

@Lyanna Stark - You touched on something I was thinking earlier. Sansa, at this point, has learned that she is only wanted for her claim. I think the next step for her is to determine what she will do with that knowledge, which plays in with your idea that she may reject traditional married life. So, she may lose her claim or recognize that her claim can give her power too. Where she is at this point, I think rejecting marriage and taking an alternate path may be a real possibility for her. It's becoming very apparent that what Sansa wants is self-autonomy. Marriage creates the risk of losing that. Or, as an alternative, marrying something who is much lower in status in order to equalize the balance between the two.

Beyond this, I don't think their marriage will be resolved via a simple annulment. The current High Septon does not strike me as doing that without him gaining something in return, which may very well have a very high political price. I know many think that Tyrion will survive as he is Martin's favorite character but I've suspected for a while that he will not. I have a feeling he will die, but not until closer to the end of the series.

[brashcandy]

@Lyanna Stark - You touched on something I was thinking earlier. Sansa, at this point, has learned that she is only wanted for her claim. I think the next step for her is to determine what she will do with that knowledge, which plays in with your idea that she may reject traditional married life. So, she may lose her claim or recognize that her claim can give her power too. Where she is at this point, I think rejecting marriage and taking an alternate path may be a real possibility for her. It's becoming very apparent that what Sansa wants is self-autonomy. Marriage creates the risk of losing that. Or, as an alternative, marrying something who is much lower in status in order to equalize the balance between the two.

I think the Mya/Lothor relationship could play a role in determining her choice as well. Right now, she doesn't have that many great role models of traditional marriage to choose from. Her own marriage to Tyrion was a sham, and she's seen how Lysa's and Cersei's have gone. If Mya and Lothor do indeed end up carving out some kind of blissful romance for themselves, Sansa may be inclined to further distance herself from her claim to Winterfell.

[Nine of Spades]

Nine of Spades, Littlefinger believes he slept with Catelyn. His obsession with Catelyn was very much predicated on a sexual desire for her, which he has now shifted to her daughter. With regard to the relationship between Sansa and LF, I would say that he is the one trying to use sexual tactics to control and seduce her, not the other way around. Sansa is hardly at liberty to withhold affection from her loving father is she? So as to how she will manipulate LF eventually, I suppose she'll simply have to become a better game player.

And he may believe that Sansa really is his daughter. He is very much delusional. My point is that Sansa doesnt need to use sex to manipulate him, his delusions/fantasies are sufficient to move him on their own.

But Sansa IS withholding affection. She is not acting the "loving daughter" that he wants, he is repeatedly asking for a "proper" kiss. He presents his Harry the Heir betrothal as a reason for a "proper" kiss. Littlefinger is setting the scene that he feels if he gives her something she should want, she will show gratitude and treat him more how he wants. The point is that while she is pretending to be his daughter, she is not acting in the way he would consider ideal. This is how in turn she can manipulate Littlefinger, by showing more affection when he does things that please her, and being less of a daughter when he displeases her. Say LIttlefinger were to put Sweetrobin in the care of someone else, and Sansa didnt want this. If she in turn acts distant/cold to Littlefinger he will likely take action to alter her attitudes. If he were to reverse his decision and she were to give him a warm and public display of affection (nothing scandalous of course) he would likely let it stand even if it ran counter to one of his plans, because ultimately that is what he craves.

Sansa's bigger problem is that she has no sense of what she wants. Until such time as she has goals and objectives, she cannot play the game. She is just a pawn for the other players. If I had to guess it will revolve around Sweetrobin and Harry the Heir. I think she will find Harry to be unsuitable, and instead move to protect Robert Aryn. At that point her objectives would move in direct opposition to Littlefingers, and so she would begin to play the game instead of simply being a pawn.

[The Black Wolf]

Ok, so... I've been reading this thread (and the previous one) for quite a while but I don't think I've ever posted before (perhaps once...but I don't remember). Anyway, great discussion :)

Nine of Spades, Littlefinger believes he slept with Catelyn. ...

I've seen this many times on these forums... but I just don't understand where it comes from. I mean, I know LF has claimed that he took her maidenhead, but I always assumed he was just plain lying and not that he honestly believed it himself... ??

[Grail King]

Ok, so... I've been reading this thread (and the previous one) for quite a while but I don't think I've ever posted before (perhaps once...but I don't remember). Anyway, great discussion :)

I've seen this many times on these forums... but I just don't understand where it comes from. I mean, I know LF has claimed that he took her maidenhead, but I always assumed he was just plain lying and not that he honestly believed it himself... ??

From the Wiki of ASOIAF:

Lysa, on the other hand, was in love with Petyr. Overlooking his obsession with her sister, one night, while he was drunk and miserable over Catelyn's rejection, she slipped into his bedchamber and bedded him. The delirious Petyr may have mistaken Lysa for Catelyn, and indeed called her "Catelyn" that night. He has since claimed (at court and in private) to have taken the maidenhood of both Tully sisters. Lysa became pregnant with Petyr's child as a result of their encounter. When Hoster Tully discovered this, he forced Lysa to drink moon tea to abort the pregnancy and banished Petyr from Riverrun, as the Baelish family was too small and insignificant to wed into his house.^[3]

[the Scorpion Knight]

I've seen this many times on these forums... but I just don't understand where it comes from. I mean, I know LF has claimed that he took her maidenhead, but I always assumed he was just plain lying and not that he honestly believed it himself... ??

after the duel with brandon he got feverish and lysa creeped onio his bed claiming to be cat

[Lyanna Stark]

And he may believe that Sansa really is his daughter. He is very much delusional. My point is that Sansa doesnt need to use sex to manipulate him, his delusions/fantasies are sufficient to move him on their own.

I agree on that Sansa does not have to use sex to manipulate him. However, I don't believe for a second Littlefinger is delusional. We've seen no proof of it so far. He is playing a really nasty game with Sansa, but he is the same he was in AGOT.

But Sansa IS withholding affection. She is not acting the "loving daughter" that he wants, he is repeatedly asking for a "proper" kiss. He presents his Harry the Heir betrothal as a reason for a "proper" kiss. Littlefinger is setting the scene that he feels if he gives her something she should want, she will show gratitude and treat him more how he wants. The point is that while she is pretending to be his daughter, she is not acting in the way he would consider ideal. This is how in turn she can manipulate Littlefinger, by showing more affection when he does things that please her, and being less of a daughter when he displeases her.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but Sansa has no options. She has nowhere else to go. Her freedom of movement and of manipulation is small. I guess we'll see how she does in TWOW, but I think her greatest chances with Littlefinger are not to actively *move him*, but to deceive him and withhold information. Note Littlefinger's own method: clean hands. Make other people do your dirty work. If she wants to take him down, she needs to get other people to do the "taking down", like someone who has beef with Littlefinger. At this point in the story, that seems to be half the realm.

However, she can't show her "displeasure" with Littlefinger since she's completely dependant on him. He's framed her for one regicide and then he's snaring her again with Lysa's murder, claiming she has "blood on her hands".

Sansa's bigger problem is that she has no sense of what she wants. Until such time as she has goals and objectives, she cannot play the game. She is just a pawn for the other players. If I had to guess it will revolve around Sweetrobin and Harry the Heir. I think she will find Harry to be unsuitable, and instead move to protect Robert Aryn. At that point her objectives would move in direct opposition to Littlefingers, and so she would begin to play the game instead of simply being a pawn.

True, she needs a goal to become a player, and I tend to agree that it will be tied to creating her own destiny and possibly also with saving Robert Arryn from Littlefinger's clutches. That said, she has already started deceiving Littlefinger in the chapter where she thinks "Lies and Arbor Gold", and again when she hides her true reason for not wanting to be married to Harry.