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From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa II


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From the Wiki of ASOIAF:

Lysa, on the other hand, was in love with Petyr. Overlooking his obsession with her sister, one night, while he was drunk and miserable over Catelyn's rejection, she slipped into his bedchamber and bedded him. The delirious Petyr may have mistaken Lysa for Catelyn, and indeed called her "Catelyn" that night. He has since claimed (at court and in private) to have taken the maidenhood of both Tully sisters. Lysa became pregnant with Petyr's child as a result of their encounter. When Hoster Tully discovered this, he forced Lysa to drink moon tea to abort the pregnancy and banished Petyr from Riverrun, as the Baelish family was too small and insignificant to wed into his house.[3]

Oh, ok... I just always assumed he said "Cat" sort of like Robert said "Lyanna". But I guess it makes sense... though I'd think he'd realise his mistake later on. I mean, he must have found out at some point that Lysa was pregnant and put two and two together. Of course, he might be in denial...

I know LF is a truly despicable character, but I can't help loving him anyway! Which is why I really want him to be good to Sansa so I don't have to wish for his slow and painful death at her hands :P

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Oh, ok... I just always assumed he said "Cat" sort of like Robert said "Lyanna". But I guess it makes sense... though I'd think he'd realise his mistake later on. I mean, he must have found out at some point that Lysa was pregnant and put two and two together. Of course, he might be in denial...

I know LF is a truly despicable character, but I can't help loving him anyway! Which is why I really want him to be good to Sansa so I don't have to wish for his slow and painful death at her hands :P

He had sex with Lysa later while "sober" and claims he deflowered both Tully girls.

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I think the Mya/Lothor relationship could play a role in determining her choice as well. Right now, she doesn't have that many great role models of traditional marriage to choose from. Her own marriage to Tyrion was a sham, and she's seen how Lysa's and Cersei's have gone. If Mya and Lothor do indeed end up carving out some kind of blissful romance for themselves, Sansa may be inclined to further distance herself from her claim to Winterfell.

Winterfell seems to be both a source of strength and a burden for Sansa. We know she draws strength from thinking of her home and childhood. Yet, it's also that proverbial weight on her shoulders, turning her in to a pawn for other's games. Tywin himself even said her happiness really did not matter. No matter what happens to her, the WF that Sansa remembers is gone and she'll never be able to get it back. Once Sansa realizes that the WF she knew as a child is gone, I think it is very possible that she will want to distance herself from any claim. I would not say that is the same thing as not wanting to play a role in rebuilding WF and the Stark family though.

The Mya/Lothor relationship gives Sansa another view on romance and love, beyond what she had been previously been exposed to. Mya, as a bastard, has some options in a marriage partner that Sansa, the highborn maid, does not. Hmm, the only positive marriage we have seen on screen that I can think of is Ned and Catelyn, a fact that I'm sure that has influenced some of Sansa's thoughts on love and marriage. It's commonly thought that Sansa will choice a marriage at some point, likely even a politically arranged marriage but I really don't think so. It's very likely Sansa, the girl who dreamed of being married to a prince, will completely break the mold of what is expected of high-born maidens.

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I want Sansa to win. Ever since AFFC and Cersei talked about the "Younger more beautiful Queen" and LF practically said "you will be queen", she has become one of my favorite characters and my favorite Stark. Don't get me wrong, I like the kids but Bran, Jon and Arya are dabbiling in fantasy stuff and Rickon is young and not very well known to me. Sansa on the other hand is clearly her parents daughter, she will be as just as Ned and as smart as her Mother, and also got nice political tips from The Hound, Cersei and now Petyr. Sansa will be the one to claim back and rebuild Winterfell, as prophesied in AFFC, but why stop there? Why should a Frey own the Riverlands? Why should X,Y,or Z own the Eyrie? So I'm asking what's your stance on kinslaying? Not direct kinslaying, I have no wish for her to harm Rickon but what about

1. Her first cousin Robert Arryn? Or (not true, but she thinks it may be) her real father Petyr Baelish?

2. Her second cousin Roslin Frey's unborn baby?

3. Her niece/nephew Jeyne Westerling's unborn baby?

I think we should string em all up

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I want Sansa to win. Ever since AFFC and Cersei talked about the "Younger more beautiful Queen" and LF practically said "you will be queen", she has become one of my favorite characters and my favorite Stark. Don't get me wrong, I like the kids but Bran, Jon and Arya are dabbiling in fantasy stuff and Rickon is young and not very well known to me. Sansa on the other hand is clearly her parents daughter, she will be as just as Ned and as smart as her Mother, and also got nice political tips from The Hound, Cersei and now Petyr. Sansa will be the one to claim back and rebuild Winterfell, as prophesied in AFFC, but why stop there? Why should a Frey own the Riverlands? Why should X,Y,or Z own the Eyrie? So I'm asking what's your stance on kinslaying? Not direct kinslaying, I have no wish for her to harm Rickon but what about

1. Her first cousin Robert Arryn? Or (not true, but she thinks it may be) her real father Petyr Baelish?

2. Her second cousin Roslin Frey's unborn baby?

3. Her niece/nephew Jeyne Westerling's unborn baby?

I think we should string em all up

Then she would not be her parents daughter, she be Cersei's or Little Finger's.

So I say NO! NO! a thousand times NO!

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Then she would not be her parents daughter, she be Cersei's or Little Finger's.

So I say NO! NO! a thousand times NO!

None of them? Kinslaying isn't that bad, the Starks kinslay everytime a Wildling dies. Robb kinslayed the Karstarks. And I wouldn't put kinslaying past Cat. But you do understand that Sansa can't look pretty forever, she'll have to do work sooner or later. I don't think she should personally kill her unborn family, becasue "You must alway keep your hands clean". Sansa has 0 claim for anything, these 3 dead annoying kids would make her the ruler of 4/7 of the kingdoms

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I want Sansa to win. Ever since AFFC and Cersei talked about the "Younger more beautiful Queen" and LF practically said "you will be queen", she has become one of my favorite characters and my favorite Stark. Don't get me wrong, I like the kids but Bran, Jon and Arya are dabbiling in fantasy stuff and Rickon is young and not very well known to me. Sansa on the other hand is clearly her parents daughter, she will be as just as Ned and as smart as her Mother, and also got nice political tips from The Hound, Cersei and now Petyr. Sansa will be the one to claim back and rebuild Winterfell, as prophesied in AFFC, but why stop there? Why should a Frey own the Riverlands? Why should X,Y,or Z own the Eyrie? So I'm asking what's your stance on kinslaying? Not direct kinslaying, I have no wish for her to harm Rickon but what about

1. Her first cousin Robert Arryn? Or (not true, but she thinks it may be) her real father Petyr Baelish?

2. Her second cousin Roslin Frey's unborn baby?

3. Her niece/nephew Jeyne Westerling's unborn baby?

I think we should string em all up

Seriously?!?! Uhm, no. Out of all the directions her character might take, I hope for this the least.

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I read this on asoiafuniversity.tumblr.com (which sometimes dispenses some brilliant analyses about characters in the ASOIAF universe) and I found this coherent and well-constructed meta about Sansa during Blackwater:

thestarkinwinterfell:

Actually, have some meta. So Sansa is scared shitless in the middle of a battle and she picks up the doll that Ned gave her, which she initially scorned because of petty, childish concerns. Even as she tells him that she hasn’t played with dolls in years, she is being childish. She’s not grown up for not playing with dolls, but she is a child for being so immaturely rude to him about it.

But she picks it up. SHE PICKS IT UP. No matter that she hasn’t played with dolls, because this doll is no longer a doll. It’s a memory of her father, and, like a child, she needs a source of comfort. Not to say that adults don’t but she looks to a doll for comfort and for safety and for a feeling of warmth and security so let’s say it’s at least childish on an innocent level. We see the killing of Lady, the killing of Ned, and the beatings all as destructions of her innocence.

And here, the final straw, as she realizes that she does not have anything to fear in Sandor, because in this instant he, who is at least strong, is very much afraid. And the feelings of pity and sympathy are liberating for her. She is a queen, and she understands that she is a queen, that she is strong in her own right, and you can see in her eyes and revelation and the freedom that is offered to her in that moment, not from Sandor but to continue to be strong in her own ways, to use courtesy as a weapon but also to see the cracks in other people’s armor.

And she drops the doll to her side.

I had vaguely noticed the symbolism of this before and I'm sure many others have as well, but I thought this was very nicely put.

This is why I champion Sansa as to be the Queen that usurps Cercei. The fact that she's been a hostage and learned to survive within the walls of the Red Keep, seen the abuse and corruption that accompanies power when used inappropriately or carelessly, and learned that there are machinations behind every decision, every plot, and even through tone of voice (via Littlefinger) is testament to how much she's grown and learned as a character over the series. True, many think Margaery Tyrell might be the younger Queen because she is quite clever like her grandmother, but all of that can be learned with time.

What Sansa has been taught through lessons or observations, what she has gone through, what she experiences will never be forgotten by her (the North remembers) and because of that, I truly believe she'll be a just, practical, and fair Queen.

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Just one problem with that interpretation: Sansa in the books does not desire to be queen any more, she wants to have a home back and reunite with her family (including Jon Snow, her bastard brother).

Unless the point is that show!Sansa and book!Sansa are now two totally different people?

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None of them? Kinslaying isn't that bad, the Starks kinslay everytime a Wildling dies. Robb kinslayed the Karstarks. And I wouldn't put kinslaying past Cat. But you do understand that Sansa can't look pretty forever, she'll have to do work sooner or later. I don't think she should personally kill her unborn family, becasue "You must alway keep your hands clean". Sansa has 0 claim for anything, these 3 dead annoying kids would make her the ruler of 4/7 of the kingdoms

1. First the killing of Karstark or wildling os not really the same as killing your brother or cousin.

2. There is no way Sansa would ever kill her brother, Rickon.

3. Sansa does not seek power. So for her to kill these children just to get power, she has to transform into someone else.

4. If she still wants power she can rule, by being the regent of either of these kids for years, and making sure she has enough influence on them.

5. She can be queen with many different ways as well.

6. For example marriing Aegon is one.

7. If the Kingdoms shatter then there are couple of open queen posts, one is of course if she stays married to tyrion and he becomes the king of the Westerlands, which I only accept if she pulls a Cersei on him (aka, the father of her children are from her lover and not from her husband, and shortly after she already has the "heirs", tyrion dies in an "accident", thus the widow Queen Sansa rules, and decides never to remarry again.). Or another scenario where she becomes the Queen of Westerlamd, she marries Tommen, the only decent male Lannister, who is the King of the Westerlands.

8. Another one, Robert Arryn dies (well he is sick), she marries Harry and becoms the queen of the Vale. (I actually see this the most possible one with the constant bird mentioning about her). Or she marries her cousin Robert Arryn (no), and she becomes the Queen of the Vale

9. Marries Wyllas, becomes the Queen of the Reach.

10. Marries Theon (god no), becomes the Queen of the Iron Islands

11. Arianne dies, and marries Trystan, becomes the Queen of Dorne.

12. Gendry or Edrick Storm becomes the King of the Stormslands, marriage, becomes the Queen of Stormsland.

13. Marries Jalabhar Xho who retakes his throne on the Summer Islands, and she becames the Queen of Summer Islands (Is he still alive by the way?)

14. Selys dies and she marries Staninis..........I don't even know what would I feel about that..........

15. Dany decides that rather than husbands she wants wives and she takes Sansa (and Margery), so she becames Queen Consort or how do they call it?

EDIT: NEW ONE. LAnnisters are wiped out, CR destroyed, new central of the Westerlands is Castamere. It belongs to Spicer wgo dies because he had something to do with the RW. His heir is Jeyne's brother. So Sansa marries the eldest Westerling bro, the awesome guy who tried to free Grey Wind, or if he is indeed dead then the other Westerling bro, anyway that is how she becomes the Queen of the Westerlands. May tywin never rest in peace

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Just one problem with that interpretation: Sansa in the books does not desire to be queen any more, she wants to have a home back and reunite with her family (including Jon Snow, her bastard brother).

Unless the point is that show!Sansa and book!Sansa are now two totally different people?

Could be :) When you read the books you get the distinct sense that even though Sansa may be moving professionally in the direction of Queenship(training from LF, his alleged plans to have her take back the North, etc), her own personal experiences and preferences are leading her in the opposite direction.

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None of them? Kinslaying isn't that bad, the Starks kinslay everytime a Wildling dies. Robb kinslayed the Karstarks. And I wouldn't put kinslaying past Cat. But you do understand that Sansa can't look pretty forever, she'll have to do work sooner or later. I don't think she should personally kill her unborn family, becasue "You must alway keep your hands clean". Sansa has 0 claim for anything, these 3 dead annoying kids would make her the ruler of 4/7 of the kingdoms

Her take down should be LF.

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Silverine wrote:

15. Dany decides that rather than husbands she wants wives and she takes Sansa (and Margery), so she becames Queen Consort or how do they call it?

Ha! :lol: I like that idea even though I don’t see it happening.

But now that I think about it, it wouldn’t be that crazy since Dany is not supposed to be able to conceive children ever again, so why not marry two women instead of two men? One of the advantages that she would get with such a marriage would not be negligible: both of her wives could get lovers, so heirs to the crown would be produced.

I could even suggest someone to Sansa; a strong man that would be as useful as her personal sworn shield than in her bed… :leer:

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I wish you'd stop bringing arguments coming from the TV series. :(

Especially season 2 : some people have not seen it yet, you know... I just spoiled myself to death reading this thread ! :bang:

Everyone please remember that references to the tv show should be kept in the tv forum. If you must include something here, keep it to a minimum and use spoiler tags.

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Could be :) When you read the books you get the distinct sense that even though Sansa may be moving professionally in the direction of Queenship(training from LF, his alleged plans to have her take back the North, etc), her own personal experiences and preferences are leading her in the opposite direction.

I like this, it's quite possible that the challenge between the personal and the professional may be where her story arc is ultimately headed. Many have made the case that she will be a queen but there is also quite a bit of evidence that she will reject the role expected of her and choose personal happiness.

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I agree on that Sansa does not have to use sex to manipulate him. However, I don't believe for a second Littlefinger is delusional. We've seen no proof of it so far. He is playing a really nasty game with Sansa, but he is the same he was in AGOT.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but Sansa has no options. She has nowhere else to go. Her freedom of movement and of manipulation is small. I guess we'll see how she does in TWOW, but I think her greatest chances with Littlefinger are not to actively *move him*, but to deceive him and withhold information. Note Littlefinger's own method: clean hands. Make other people do your dirty work. If she wants to take him down, she needs to get other people to do the "taking down", like someone who has beef with Littlefinger. At this point in the story, that seems to be half the realm.

However, she can't show her "displeasure" with Littlefinger since she's completely dependant on him. He's framed her for one regicide and then he's snaring her again with Lysa's murder, claiming she has "blood on her hands".

Regarding littlefinger, hes not delusional in general, but his perception of his relationship with Cat and Sansa is definitely warped. I think if he could think clearly about Cat he would realize he never slept with her, and if he could think clearly about Sansa he would realize that relying on her is a major vulnerability. Its a major weakness I feel Sansa can exploit.

Regarding Sansa needing Littlefinger, it could easily be said that Littlefinger needs her just as badly. His Harry the Heir scheme is dependent upon her. He also is far more emotionally attached to her then she is to him, so she has an advantage there as well. She may not be able to defy him directly, but I dont think hes either inclined to or capable of trying to reign her in too tightly with threats/schemes of his own. That gives her a bit of freedom to plot against him that he wouldnt allow others.

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I’m also on LJ!! I think I’ve seen some of you over there J

Anyways, there was some talk about what Sansa learned from her marriage to Tyrion. Some said that she basically realized that she is a piece of mean men want to fight over for. This reminded me of the vision Danny has at the HotU of a beautiful woman being ravished by dwarves. I once read that the woman is meant to be Westeros and the dwarves are the kings and houses fighting over it. So maybe this can be a little hint of Sansa as the future queen of the 7 kingdoms..?

A brief mention regarding this that I think was addressed in the show’s blackwater episode is:

the bit where shae throws in the possibility that cersei may be jealous of sansa. It could be George hinting at us that she could fulfill cersei’s prophecy

And yet, will she accept being wanted only for her claim if she had a voice on the matter?

But some of the things I think Sansa learned from her strained marriage to Tyrion is that she doesn’t like one bit the dutiful wife role. And this may be one of the only reasons I like about this marriage, cause it allows Sansa in the future to be more determined in marrying for love, not her claim or a crown or gold since she’s tasted that dish once and didn’t like it.

This can also be linked to the talk there was earlier of the similarities and differences between arya & sansa. Arya of all people turns out to be a person with traditional romantic views who can’t believe her father may have loved Ashara Dayne, whereas Sansa can adjust her beliefs and views on these subjects, to the point where she learns from LF, Cersei, Tyrion and her aunt that highborn ladies can have lovers, bastards, lovers before marriage, and even use sex as a weapon. I think it’s lovely to see the great change in sansa from the 1st book to ADwD; from the proper little lady who wanted to be queen and have babies, to alayne stone. (By the way, I didn’t like the show’s line of “most girls are stupid” either, particularly since sansa’s scene comes right after this. I’ve liked arya since the start of the books, but I could never relate to her in the way I could with sansa. Even if she was a little spoiled and foolishly naïve in the first book, I preferred to read sansa over arya).

Anyways, I believe in the theory that the now much more world-learned Alayne is trying to justfy her subconscious desire for sandor in mya/lothor too! She sees all these highborn ladies she’s met have horrible experiences for obeying their families, so maybe if we see Mya and lothor happy, sansa will see that being with a man like sandor would be quite nice… since he wants her, not her claim. (it would be nice to see mya helps sansa escape LF and lothor can help as well).

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Regarding littlefinger, hes not delusional in general, but his perception of his relationship with Cat and Sansa is definitely warped. I think if he could think clearly about Cat he would realize he never slept with her, and if he could think clearly about Sansa he would realize that relying on her is a major vulnerability. Its a major weakness I feel Sansa can exploit.

I see what you mean. Regarding Cat, I don't know, allegedly he was drugged up to the nines and thinks it was Cat, while it was actually Lysa. Should he know? I'm not sure if anyone bothered to tell him otherwise. Judging by Cat's account of the duel, it seemed that as soon as Littlefinger was well enough, he got sent home to the Vale, and Cat was not allowed to talk to him at all during this time so he had no chance to broach the subject with her. I do agree though that the normally sharp Petyr Baelish has a blind spot here, definitely. I also agree that it's a weakness Sansa can exploit.

Regarding Sansa needing Littlefinger, it could easily be said that Littlefinger needs her just as badly. His Harry the Heir scheme is dependent upon her. He also is far more emotionally attached to her then she is to him, so she has an advantage there as well. She may not be able to defy him directly, but I dont think hes either inclined to or capable of trying to reign her in too tightly with threats/schemes of his own. That gives her a bit of freedom to plot against him that he wouldnt allow others.

This I am less sure of. Littlefinger is above all an opportunist who revels in chaos. Sure, he has plans here and there, but his real strength is that he can capitalise on whatever comes his way and he has no scruples.

I disagree that he's no inclined to reign her in though. He's already shown that he wanted her completely snared in his net before he brought her, so she had no choice. Due to Littlefinger's planning with the Queen of Thorns, Sansa is now a regicide suspect and a run away from the Kings Justice. That's extremely serious. After that, Littlefinger also states outright to her that Marillion's blood is on her hands, as if killing Lysa and having Marillion executed was Sansa's fault. Both of these things are extremely powerful threats to Sansa. Littlefinger doesn't state it as such though, but the implicit message is that she has nobody but him, and he is the only one who can shield her from the accusations, which we do know he got put on her in the first place.

What I think we do agree on is that I cannot see Littlefinger using physical punishment or threats of physical punishment to get Sansa to behave the way he wants, since LF really doesn't operate like that. He's however perfectly fine with almost anything else. I also agree with you that Littlefinger is far more emotionally attached to Sansa than the other way around, to the point of obsession. Which ties into the first paragraph above, too.

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It rather reminds me of an abusive relationship where the abuser puts the abusee in a state of complete dependence, physical and psychological upon them. It's a step on from the grooming with presents and sweetness.

But I'm sure that must have been pointed out already.

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