From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa II

[Lyanna Stark]

You've really posed some intriguing points worthy of further discussion, Lyanna. I think what we're seeing is that Westerosi society is changing to accomodate relationships that normally would have been considered as going against societal norms, and/or those relationships that go against societal norms may be changing Westerosi society, and creating a space for themselves. And making the political landscape accord with your personal desires might not be so daunting a task as it once was. Since the war of the five kings, we've seen a destabilization of patriarchal power in Westeros, with the nobility engulfed by claims of incest, bastardy, and treason. Unions that facilitated land grabs and the subservience of women have been thwarted and undermined (see Alys Karstark and Sansa), and the three most powerful weapons in the world are in the hands of a woman who has shown her own distaste at having to sacrifice personal happiness for political harmony. So I think that on a personal and political level, Martin is clearing the space and opening the boundaries that would make a relationship between Sansa and Sandor at least possible. I should note here as well that Sandor's affiliation with the Faith - a rising power in Westeros - could have a positive role to play in bringing him and Sansa together. There's the potential political payoff of course, but in terms of the greater theme of religion, Sandor's "conversion" or at least his immersion in religious life, and the subsequent benefits therein, could really enrich his relationship with Sansa.

As this is such an interesting topic and one with a rather large scope, I thought I'd make a separate post about it. I've had some thoughts about this in the past, so it will be interesting to see if others have been thinking along the same lines.

Like you, I've also noted that Westerosi society seems to be if not breaking apart completely, so at least showing signs of partial collapse. Lummel mentioned in another thread that the institution of knighthood is one such thing we have seen close up with Gregor Clegane that it is in many ways a non functioning institution. A knight is supposed to protect the weak and women, but Gregor does anything but, yet his liege lord or whatever justice system is in place care nothing for his atrocities.

Then as you note, Westeri society is rapidly loosing its patriarchs. Several great houses are, or will potentially be, ruled by women. The wars will also have left a lot of minor houses with more women than men, leaving it up to the women to try and manage the estates and the local political situation moving forward. Having women in positions of power will no longer be strange and it shifts society away from a wholly patriarchal mindset, I'd say. It means women can project a larger amount of power and get respected in a different way even during coming generations, since from real life examples, we can assume that once women are accepted as possible powers that be, it's difficult to go back. Cersei is a bit of a forerunner here, but her methods are definitely questionable. Regarding Dany, it would not surprise me should she become Queen that she removes the old Targaryen inheritance rule that only sons can inherit. Let there be space for daughters on the Iron Throne!

Regarding marriages as only cynical tools for landgrabs, I think like you that this type of thinking has already taken a few hits. Especially the northerners seem unhappy about extremely cruel and forced marriages, which is exemplified with fake!Arya and the widowed Lady Hornwood, but also to a degree with Alys Karstark. Larger emphasis seems to be put on survival, practical skills (see Mormonts) and old traditions up in the North, and torturing or someone forcing themselves on a liege lord's daughter is definitely not up there with their favourite things. In a harsh climate, having some of your neighbour's equally stony and unhabitable patch of land is probably not really worth lots and lots of political scheming, while in the south where the land is richer, it could potentially give you more bang for your bucks to scheme, so to speak.

If we are looking forward to winter as well, it seems landgrabs will be less and less important, since who cares how many fields with snow on you have when you can't even feed the existing smallfolk? It also seems to me that during a harsh winter, other interests will take priority. Especially if we assume that during the coming winter, there will be a major crisis with the Others invading.

I definitely agree with you that taken together, it gives to hand a "normal rules don't apply anymore" scenario. It also seems certain that before we see things getting better, we'll see a further collapse of Westeros and its society. I'd also be surprised if we didn't see a complete collapse of at least a couple of powerful houses like the Boltons and the Freys before the series is over, which should create a power vacuum and positions to be filled by ambitious and competent underlings of various kinds. Robb can't make Sandor a lord due to being dead, but once back as Starks, Sansa/Bran/Rickon/Jon Snow should be able to.

The Faith as a player I am not sure what to make of yet. It seems to have two very distinct faces: the first being the down to earth, helpful and quietly devout Septon Meribald and Elder Brother, while the second is the far less palatable High Sparrow and his fanatics. Maybe someone else has some thoughts on this?

[Lady.]

wow - some great posts on this page!

First and foremost - Lyanna, I read that physical dynamics of that scene the same way. When he (painfully) pinches her chin and makes her look at him - I thought he was going to kiss her! I think it's a powerful scene, for those (of us) who read into these things, demonstrating the chemistry between them.

Secondly - I think you do a great job of highlighting how the traditional power structures break down and Barriston may in fact be a great foil for Sandor. Granted he was dismissed as opposed to fleeing, but it was a graceless exit, and as you suggest we are essentially seeing the breakdown of the Lannisters. With Tyrion and Tywin (and others) gone, they now lack any type of strategic thinker or player and I would be surprised if whoever came after them held Sandor to any type of oathbreaking. Which I also wonder - he did he officially take the Kingsguard oaths? Or did he just say '...why not?' and take the cloak?

Also thank you to everyone for highlighting that Sandor isn't some crazed warrior. As everyone else has touched upon, in Sansa's chapters we often see him in extreme/stressful circumstances but he's certainly exceptionally competent at what he does.

[ElizaMartell]

Yes, Sandor will become a lord and marry Sansa and live in a big house made out of lemon cakes in the middle of King's Landing with puppies and stray cats. :bs:

In the meanwhile, a bat flies out of Varys arse.

[Lyanna Stark]

Yes, Sandor will become a lord and marry Sansa and live in a big house made out of lemon cakes in the middle of King's Landing with puppies and stray cats. :bs:

In the meanwhile, a bat flies out of Varys arse.

Erhm, who said this would happen? :) I can't really see that I wrote anything like that, but if you disagree, feel free to point out where. I'd be interested to know.

[brashcandy]

Regarding marriages as only cynical tools for landgrabs, I think like you that this type of thinking has already taken a few hits. Especially the northerners seem unhappy about extremely cruel and forced marriages, which is exemplified with fake!Arya and the widowed Lady Hornwood, but also to a degree with Alys Karstark. Larger emphasis seems to be put on survival, practical skills (see Mormonts) and old traditions up in the North, and torturing or someone forcing themselves on a liege lord's daughter is definitely not up there with their favourite things. In a harsh climate, having some of your neighbour's equally stony and unhabitable patch of land is probably not really worth lots and lots of political scheming, while in the south where the land is richer, it could potentially give you more bang for your bucks to scheme, so to speak.

Yes, I agree; the awful circumstances of forced marriages and the hatred and bitterness that they tend to engender have really seemed to make others wary of compelling either men or women to accept someone they do not at least like/have some compatibility with on some level (for example: Lady Waynwood wants to make sure that Harry is happy with Alayne). Ned and Catelyn got lucky, but the other two significant marriages of that period - Jon Arryn and Lysa/Robert and Cersei - were complete disasters. Marriages are simply not the failsafe/fix all method they once were in ensuring political prosperity and security among the great houses. Look at the mess that has been made with the Lannister/Tyrell alliance, with suspicion and underhanded tactics taking precedence in all their interactions, and in the marriage between Hizdahr and Dany. Personal happiness rather than political expediency has to be primary consideration when considering any alliance.

The Faith as a player I am not sure what to make of yet. It seems to have two very distinct faces: the first being the down to earth, helpful and quietly devout Septon Meribald and Elder Brother, while the second is the far less palatable High Sparrow and his fanatics. Maybe someone else has some thoughts on this?

I've always thought that the Elder Brother hangs in the balance between the type displayed by Septon Meribald vs the fanatical High Septon back in KL. We don't as yet have a lot of info about the EB, but I do think he's not totally removed from the political side of the Faith as he might have intimated to Brienne. But this is veering into crackpot theorising :) Suffice to say, I don't think Martin has simply placed Sandor on the QI so that he can benefit from some rehabilitation. Either it's going to connect him to Sansa or to Brienne and Jaime, or he's going to be involved in some aspect of the religious turmoil building in Westeros.

[Winter's Knight]

Sandor the next High Septon?

[brashcandy]

Sandor the next High Septon?

I wouldn't go that far :)

[Lummel]

Sandor the next High Septon?

That would be nice :)

[Winter's Knight]

I wouldn't go that far :)

Ah but it would be awesome:"Fuck your whoring, you think it's going to help you when the Stranger comes after you?"

[Lummel]

Ah, tough love preaching!

[Winter's Knight]

Ah, tough love preaching!

I have half a mind to bribe Martin to include this angle.

[Daidalos]

I like Sansa's chapters from ACoK and forwards. This is because they offer a glimpse into the real plots and machinations that drive the plot forward. This if of course more true at the end of ASoS and AFfC. However, I can't say that I care much for Sansa as a character.

Throughout the series, Sansa importance has always been determined by the degree to which other characters consider her important. She is used as a pawn in marriage (for the Lannisters, Tyrells and maybe Littlefinger) or simply to satisfy some weird obsessions (Littlefinger), but she is not an active player. Maybe this makes her sympathetic, but not interesting or admirable in my eyes.

Do not mistake me, I WANT for her to become a player. I want for Sansa to learn from the best player of the game of thrones, Petyr Baelish, and if possible, I want for her to surpass her master. As it is, Littlefinger is my favourite character, because he is brilliant and uses his intelligence to achieve far-reaching goals--that is interesting and admirable, even if morally suspect (to say the least). If Sansa can do the same or better, it would be awesome beyond words. However, it seems to me that she will never reach the same heights, and that makes me sad.

Beyond Littlefinger's cunning and talent for manipulation, a large part of his success derives from his financial acumen, which bespeaks certain mathematical gifts. Baelish is simply highly intelligent, and he has been highly intelligent throughout all his life (see Catelyn's comments to that effect in GoT). In comparison, Sansa displays no exceptional intelligence and certainly no talent for mathematics. She can be said to be decent at playing the courtesy game, something which Tyrion remarks upon, and she is getting better at recognizing a plot if she knows that there was a plot, but this does not amount to the talent necessary to make another player of Littlefinger's calibre.

This is unfortunate, because I think this story would be interesting with a woman who plays the game at the highest possible level. None of the others qualify: QoT is very good, but her ambition is limited; Cersei believes she plays at the highest level, but she is delusional; and Daenerys has shown herself to be a quite deficient ruler and politician. It would be sad if no woman can be as skilled and proactive as the best male players of the game. Similarly, it would be depressing if Sansa had to be rescued again from Littlefinger's influence. That would cement her irrelevancy and lack of agency in my mind. Accordingly, the rescue fantasies that I've seen featuring Sansa and the Hound (or the Blackfish) really confound me; to you I say, do you want Sansa to be a useless damsel in distress?

I will continue to reread Sansa's chapters with interest, and I look forward to her future chapters, but for me to actually like Sansa as a character is going to take a lot. Again, I don't think it is going to happen, but I would be delighted if she learned to play the game as well as Littlefinger does--or better; if she kills him after that, I can live with it.

Finally, I will say that I find the notion of SanSan repulsive. After learning of this ship, my interest in the character of the Hound has decreased. Unfair, yes, but there you go. Sandor is interesting because he is complex. He is brutal, but he is no monster, and he is much less of a hypocrite than many of the other characters. There is even a tenderness too him, but sometimes it manifests in very disturbing ways. All of this is fascinating, but it does not make the concept of a romantic relationship between him and Sansa any less creepy. He is a violent murderer, and through all his interactions with Sansa there has been a huge power disparity. Their relationship is intriguing, but it has undertones of abuse that shouldn't be ignored--to actually want to see them together strikes me as perverse.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Her take down should be LF.

No, that belongs to Mrs. Sansa Lannister's hubby

1. First the killing of Karstark or wildling os not really the same as killing your brother or cousin.

2. There is no way Sansa would ever kill her brother, Rickon.

3. Sansa does not seek power. So for her to kill these children just to get power, she has to transform into someone else.

4. If she still wants power she can rule, by being the regent of either of these kids for years, and making sure she has enough influence on them.

5. She can be queen with many different ways as well.

6. For example marriing Aegon is one.

7. If the Kingdoms shatter then there are couple of open queen posts, one is of course if she stays married to tyrion and he becomes the king of the Westerlands, which I only accept if she pulls a Cersei on him (aka, the father of her children are from her lover and not from her husband, and shortly after she already has the "heirs", tyrion dies in an "accident", thus the widow Queen Sansa rules, and decides never to remarry again.). Or another scenario where she becomes the Queen of Westerlamd, she marries Tommen, the only decent male Lannister, who is the King of the Westerlands.

8. Another one, Robert Arryn dies (well he is sick), she marries Harry and becoms the queen of the Vale. (I actually see this the most possible one with the constant bird mentioning about her). Or she marries her cousin Robert Arryn (no), and she becomes the Queen of the Vale

9. Marries Wyllas, becomes the Queen of the Reach.

10. Marries Theon (god no), becomes the Queen of the Iron Islands

11. Arianne dies, and marries Trystan, becomes the Queen of Dorne.

12. Gendry or Edrick Storm becomes the King of the Stormslands, marriage, becomes the Queen of Stormsland.

13. Marries Jalabhar Xho who retakes his throne on the Summer Islands, and she becames the Queen of Summer Islands (Is he still alive by the way?)

14. Selys dies and she marries Staninis..........I don't even know what would I feel about that..........

15. Dany decides that rather than husbands she wants wives and she takes Sansa (and Margery), so she becames Queen Consort or how do they call it?

EDIT: NEW ONE. LAnnisters are wiped out, CR destroyed, new central of the Westerlands is Castamere. It belongs to Spicer wgo dies because he had something to do with the RW. His heir is Jeyne's brother. So Sansa marries the eldest Westerling bro, the awesome guy who tried to free Grey Wind, or if he is indeed dead then the other Westerling bro, anyway that is how she becomes the Queen of the Westerlands. May tywin never rest in peace

Before I answer all of those let me state I have no wish for her to harm Rickon. I am sure that the brother and sister can compromise through politics, especially because Rickon's being advised by the political aware Onion and the feminist Spearwife Osha. Secondly I want Sansa Stark to rebuild the strength of the Kingdom of the North(as Robb envisioned it {North, Riverlands, East, Iron Islands) through her skills in politics, not by opening her legs one at a time like Margaery Tyrell

1. Kinslaying is a silly curse made up by a wet nurse so the children will stop fighting each other. If there are no gods there is no Kinslaying, but if you swear that the trees are all knowing then then there is no reason that Wildlings and Karstarks are not kin.

2. I agree, keep Rickon alive

3.Exactly! Sansa has changed dramaticlly since AGOT, her character development is insane and she truly has made the change from Pawn to Player

4.Regent!? The hells she looks like, Cersei? No. Sansa will be queen.

5-15. What!! Marry a bastard? Or dickless Reek? Or the usurping savage Jalabhar Xho? Sansa Stark is not a whore.

This is a clear cut situation, Sansa is close to being the only heir to more then 50% of Westeros. She is the daughter of winter, not a Westerling baby. She is the one who is cool is with everyone in the Vale, from the high born to the low and all Maesters and bastards in between, not Harry the Heir. She is a Tully, the long auburn hair who’s beauty is only out shined by her politics, a Tully must be in charge of the riverlands, not a fucking Frey!

I don’t understand why people think that just because she’s a preteen girl who eats lemoncakes means that she has a gentler heart than Dany. When she was still a child of summer she saw Ser Hugh die and it gave her little to no reaction. In ACOK she prayed like her sister, for the Lannisters to lose. In AFFC, Petyr told her that they are expecting company and she said something like I’d sooner watch him marry a Frey. Sansa is not an angel, she understands death from Sandor’s teachings and if she truly makes the transition from pawn to (the) player then Kinslaying is the first step

[jons nissa]

I like Sansa's chapters from ACoK and forwards. This is because they offer a glimpse into the real plots and machinations that drive the plot forward. This if of course more true at the end of ASoS and AFfC. However, I can't say that I care much for Sansa as a character.

Throughout the series, Sansa importance has always been determined by the degree to which other characters consider her important. She is used as a pawn in marriage (for the Lannisters, Tyrells and maybe Littlefinger) or simply to satisfy some weird obsessions (Littlefinger), but she is not an active player. Maybe this makes her sympathetic, but not interesting or admirable in my eyes.

Do not mistake me, I WANT for her to become a player. I want for Sansa to learn from the best player of the game of thrones, Petyr Baelish, and if possible, I want for her to surpass her master. As it is, Littlefinger is my favourite character, because he is brilliant and uses his intelligence to achieve far-reaching goals--that is interesting and admirable, even if morally suspect (to say the least). If Sansa can do the same or better, it would be awesome beyond words. However, it seems to me that she will never reach the same heights, and that makes me sad.

Beyond Littlefinger's cunning and talent for manipulation, a large part of his success derives from his financial acumen, which bespeaks certain mathematical gifts. Baelish is simply highly intelligent, and he has been highly intelligent throughout all his life (see Catelyn's comments to that effect in GoT). In comparison, Sansa displays no exceptional intelligence and certainly no talent for mathematics. She can be said to be decent at playing the courtesy game, something which Tyrion remarks upon, and she is getting better at recognizing a plot if she knows that there was a plot, but this does not amount to the talent necessary to make another player of Littlefinger's calibre.

This is unfortunate, because I think this story would be interesting with a woman who plays the game at the highest possible level. None of the others qualify: QoT is very good, but her ambition is limited; Cersei believes she plays at the highest level, but she is delusional; and Daenerys has shown herself to be a quite deficient ruler and politician. It would be sad if no woman can be as skilled and proactive as the best male players of the game. Similarly, it would be depressing if Sansa had to be rescued again from Littlefinger's influence. That would cement her irrelevancy and lack of agency in my mind. Accordingly, the rescue fantasies that I've seen featuring Sansa and the Hound (or the Blackfish) really confound me; to you I say, do you want Sansa to be a useless damsel in distress?

I will continue to reread Sansa's chapters with interest, and I look forward to her future chapters, but for me to actually like Sansa as a character is going to take a lot. Again, I don't think it is going to happen, but I would be delighted if she learned to play the game as well as Littlefinger does--or better; if she kills him after that, I can live with it.

Finally, I will say that I find the notion of SanSan repulsive. After learning of this ship, my interest in the character of the Hound has decreased. Unfair, yes, but there you go. Sandor is interesting because he is complex. He is brutal, but he is no monster, and he is much less of a hypocrite than many of the other characters. There is even a tenderness too him, but sometimes it manifests in very disturbing ways. All of this is fascinating, but it does not make the concept of a romantic relationship between him and Sansa any less creepy. He is a violent murderer, and through all his interactions with Sansa there has been a huge power disparity. Their relationship is intriguing, but it has undertones of abuse that shouldn't be ignored--to actually want to see them together strikes me as perverse.

i think i love you. seriously.

actually, i believe sansa is more than decent at playing the courtesy game. it is indeed her armour and served her well. i'm wondering if sansa doesn't become a player by using this armour and the other "womanly tools." sansa could use tactics that seem innocent, understated and harmless but are purposeful and powerful to get the desired outcome. sort of like an antithesis of cersei. if grrm could pull that off, winning by using tools dismissed by the others, i would be very impressed.

[brashcandy]

Throughout the series, Sansa importance has always been determined by the degree to which other characters consider her important. She is used as a pawn in marriage (for the Lannisters, Tyrells and maybe Littlefinger) or simply to satisfy some weird obsessions (Littlefinger), but she is not an active player. Maybe this makes her sympathetic, but not interesting or admirable in my eyes.

Hmmm, the way I see it is that other characters have considered Sansa important because.... she's important. Robb realised his mistake too late when he thought that his sisters weren't as valuable as the kingslayer. Either way, whether as pawn or player, Sansa has had an important effect on other characters (namely the Hound) and in determining the outcome of certain plots.

Do not mistake me, I WANT for her to become a player. I want for Sansa to learn from the best player of the game of thrones, Petyr Baelish, and if possible, I want for her to surpass her master. As it is, Littlefinger is my favourite character, because he is brilliant and uses his intelligence to achieve far-reaching goals--that is interesting and admirable, even if morally suspect (to say the least). If Sansa can do the same or better, it would be awesome beyond words. However, it seems to me that she will never reach the same heights, and that makes me sad.

I'm glad that you find Littlefinger interesting and admirable, but for my part, as "far-reaching" as his goals might be, he still remains the same small-minded boy he always was, obsessed with getting one over on his betters. As much as I want to see Sansa win at the "game" - meaning achieving happiness and independence for herself which aren't tethered to or dependent on a man or a marriage, I think it's a bit unrealistic to expect a young girl to "reach the same heights" of a man who is nearly three times her age and has the requisite experience that comes with that. I would be happy if Sansa is able to negotiate her own freedom from LF, that's all. Reaching the "same heights" as him is equivalent to sinking to the same lows as he does, and I think Sansa is better than that.

Beyond Littlefinger's cunning and talent for manipulation, a large part of his success derives from his financial acumen, which bespeaks certain mathematical gifts. Baelish is simply highly intelligent, and he has been highly intelligent throughout all his life (see Catelyn's comments to that effect in GoT). In comparison, Sansa displays no exceptional intelligence and certainly no talent for mathematics. She can be said to be decent at playing the courtesy game, something which Tyrion remarks upon, and she is getting better at recognizing a plot if she knows that there was a plot, but this does not amount to the talent necessary to make another player of Littlefinger's calibre.

Is a talent for mathematics the only arbiter of intelligence? This seems a little absurd to me. FWIW, Sansa is intelligent. We see her using her critical thinking skills to determine the reasoning behind LF's schemes when they're in the Vale, and whilst in KL she's certainly perceptive to the dangers around her and how to negotiate them. But more than this, she displays a high emotional IQ, which makes her able to relate to others and figure out their motivations.

This is unfortunate, because I think this story would be interesting with a woman who plays the game at the highest possible level. None of the others qualify: QoT is very good, but her ambition is limited; Cersei believes she plays at the highest level, but she is delusional; and Daenerys has shown herself to be a quite deficient ruler and politician. It would be sad if no woman can be as skilled and proactive as the best male players of the game. Similarly, it would be depressing if Sansa had to be rescued again from Littlefinger's influence. That would cement her irrelevancy and lack of agency in my mind. Accordingly, the rescue fantasies that I've seen featuring Sansa and the Hound (or the Blackfish) really confound me; to you I say, do you want Sansa to be a useless damsel in distress?

No one imagines that the Hound or the Blackfish will simply turn up in the Vale and spirit Sansa away from the big bad wolf. When we talk about either or both of these men showing up, it's along the lines of how they can help Sansa in some way. With the Hound it might simply come to emotional support, or the appearance of her uncle might prevent the marriage with Harry the heir from happening. You seem to have a high estimation of LF's abilities, but I would remind you that he's gotten there off the backs of women. There's a reason why women have not had the opportunities afforded to men to become paramount, central players. In one word: patriarchy. In two words: patriarchy and misogyny. In three words: patriarchy, misogyny and sexism. However, as I noted upthread along with Lyanna Stark, the war is providing opportunities for women to become more visible and powerful players. I expect Sansa to have her own moment in the sun.

Finally, I will say that I find the notion of SanSan repulsive. After learning of this ship, my interest in the character of the Hound has decreased. Unfair, yes, but there you go. Sandor is interesting because he is complex. He is brutal, but he is no monster, and he is much less of a hypocrite than many of the other characters. There is even a tenderness too him, but sometimes it manifests in very disturbing ways. All of this is fascinating, but it does not make the concept of a romantic relationship between him and Sansa any less creepy. He is a violent murderer, and through all his interactions with Sansa there has been a huge power disparity. Their relationship is intriguing, but it has undertones of abuse that shouldn't be ignored--to actually want to see them together strikes me as perverse.

To each their own. What I personally find creepy is the expectation that women should enter a relationship simply because their father ordains it, or the lack of attention paid to making sure that couples will be suitable to one another. If you do not wish for Sandor and Sansa to end up together, then of course it's your opinion, but wanting to see two people who actually value one another and have developed a meaningful relationship end up together is in no way "perverse". I have not met one proponent of the relationship who hasn't recognized the troublesome aspects, but focus on those alone and you're missing the bigger picture.

[Lady.]

I agree with many of Brash's points above.

I think it's fair enough to say that Sansa is important only as others see her as important but that relates back to the central notion of power that Varys' touches upon, no? To paraphrase, People are powerful because others think they are powerful. But do you believe there is an absolute notion of importance separate from what others think? As Brash states above, and I would concur, there is. It's called being underestimated. No one thinks Sansa is important and yet - she (to be fair, without full prior knowledge) poisons Joffrey. I would say that's a fairly important act (and plot point).

However, I would agree that Sansa is not as intelligent as LF. Nor would I expect her to be. And no - no one woman has risen to the heights of the game - though I believe by the end of the series, this will have changed. As Brash, again, correctly points out - this is a patriarchical society. I'm impressed that so many women have overcome a lack of training to be in the positions they are (which in and of itself testifies to their strength). Yes, some very highborn women are taught to read and numbers - but they are also taught how to embroider, dance and sing. While their brothers learn war tactics and swordsmanship. But I think it's wrong to de-value a woman or say she's less interesting or less powerful just because she may enjoy these pursuits as well.

Finally, as to the Sandor relationship - I appreciate it's not for everyone, and that's fair enough. We all read things different ways. But I find it hard to believe that you can call him a violent murderer and express concern over abuse and praise LF only paragraphs above. Sandor has killed men. So has Ned Stark. So has Robert Baratheon. In battle and in the line of duty. LF has killed (Ned Stark, Joffrey, Lysa, etc.) all for his personal motives and gain. These were pre-planned, well thought out acts - which is actually what makes them murder as opposed to manslaughter. His treatment of Sansa as both a daughter and 'lover' is much more emotionally abusive than Sandor's rough words. So you may not like them together and I understand why - but LF is much more dangerous (physically and emotionally) to Sansa than Sandor ever would be.

[Daidalos]

Hmmm, the way I see it is that other characters have considered Sansa important because.... she's important. Robb realised his mistake too late when he thought that his sisters weren't as valuable as the kingslayer. Either way, whether as pawn or player, Sansa has had an important effect on other characters (namely the Hound) and in determining the outcome of certain plots.

I would say that Sansa's importance to other characters does not derive from her skills or abilities, but from her high birth or from her looks. Naturally, that is an importance of sorts, but not something that makes me respect her as a character.

I'm glad that you find Littlefinger interesting and admirable, but for my part, as "far-reaching" as his goals might be, he still remains the same small-minded boy he always was, obsessed with getting one over on his betters. As much as I want to see Sansa win at the "game" - meaning achieving happiness and independence for herself which aren't tethered to or dependent on a man or a marriage, I think it's a bit unrealistic to expect a young girl to "reach the same heights" of a man who is nearly three times her age and has the requisite experience that comes with that. I would be happy if Sansa is able to negotiate her own freedom from LF, that's all. Reaching the "same heights" as him is equivalent to sinking to the same lows as he does, and I think Sansa is better than that.

The story is not over yet, and Littlefinger's achievements when he was Sansa's age certainly didn't amount to much. And I certainly agree with you that her happiness and independence shouldn't be dependent on any man; I would not want her to be subservient to anyone. However, I don't think it necessary for Sansa to be as morally depraved as Littlefinger is to reach the same heights. The ability to play the game is morally neutral; the way you conduct yourself when you play determines your character and moral fiber. Sansa has an opportunity to learn these abilities, and I think it should not be neglected.

Is a talent for mathematics the only arbiter of intelligence? This seems a little absurd to me. FWIW, Sansa is intelligent. We see her using her critical thinking skills to determine the reasoning behind LF's schemes when they're in the Vale, and whilst in KL she's certainly perceptive to the dangers around her and how to negotiate them. But more than this, she displays a high emotional IQ, which makes her able to relate to others and figure out their motivations.

A talent for mathematics is not the only arbiter of intelligence, nor did I suggest that it was. What I did say was that it was an indication of high intelligence, but that doesn't mean that it is necessarily the only indication. However, I don't think Sansa has given any indication, in any sphere of intelligence, that she possess the requisite gifts to equal or exceed Littlefinger as a player in the game of thrones. And I regret that and wish it were otherwise, and would be pleasantly surprised if she grew to become an active player in her own right.

No one imagines that the Hound or the Blackfish will simply turn up in the Vale and spirit Sansa away from the big bad wolf. When we talk about either or both of these men showing up, it's along the lines of how they can help Sansa in some way. With the Hound it might simply come to emotional support, or the appearance of her uncle might prevent the marriage with Harry the heir from happening. You seem to have a high estimation of LF's abilities, but I would remind you that he's gotten there off the backs of women. There's a reason why women have not had the opportunities afforded to men to become paramount, central players. In one word: patriarchy. In two words: patriarchy and misogyny. In three words: patriarchy, misogyny and sexism. However, as I noted upthread along with Lyanna Stark, the war is providing opportunities for women to become more visible and powerful players. I expect Sansa to have her own moment in the sun.

First, regarding the rescue-scenarios: having someone arrive to help Sansa out of yet another bad situation would only highlight Sansa's lack of agency. That she needs rescuing seems to fit her narrative, and that is unfortunate. It would be another thing if she took steps to break free, utilising whatever resources she had at her disposal. Then she would control her own destiny, which certainly has not been the case so far. If another character's actions or decisions prove to be the deciding factor in Sansa's eventual liberation from Littlefinger, then she would remain the hapless pawn.

Second, regarding Littlefinger's abilities: yes, he exploits his advantages and prevailing customs. He manipulates and uses women to achieve his own ends. This does not make him a moral individual, but it speaks to his skill in using those resources, whatever they may be, to his own advantage. I don't see how this diminishes his talents at all. You should also note that some of these societal factors are not in his favour: he is almost as lowborn as a lord can be and he is physically unremarkable.

Third, regarding patriarchy, misogyny, sexism: I agree, there are formidable obstacles for women in this series. All the more impressive if they manage to succeed despite of them. This explains why Sansa has difficulties, not why I or anyone should find her to be an interesting character.

To each their own. What I personally find creepy is the expectation that women should enter a relationship simply because their father ordains it, or the lack of attention paid to making sure that couples will be suitable to one another. If you do not wish for Sandor and Sansa to end up together, then of course it's your opinion, but wanting to see two people who actually value one another and have developed a meaningful relationship end up together is in no way "perverse". I have not met one proponent of the relationship who hasn't recognized the troublesome aspects, but focus on those alone and you're missing the bigger picture.

I certainly did not mean to imply that women should enter relationships because their father ordains it. I don't ship Sansa with anyone, and I don't think she necessarily should marry out of political expediency. If Sansa, or any character for that matter, decides who she wants to be with on her own terms, more power to her, but the situation with Sandor is far too twisted and unhealthy for my taste. What do they value in each other, and under what circumstances did those affections develop? To what extent can their relationship be considered equal and reciprocal, considering the extreme emotional stress that Sansa must have suffered during the time she got to know Sandor?

I don't object to the relationship as it is portrayed in the books--truly, it is fascinating--but I don't think it would be to Sansa's benefit should it develop into a romance. I don't think it unfair to say that the relationship bordered on the abusive, and with Sansa very subservient to Sandor.

For these reasons, and many more, I think it is obvious that a "romantic" relationship between Sansa and Sandor would not be equal and I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to be abusive as well. Therefore, I consider it to be perverse for anyone to want this relationship to happen. (By the way, I also think that Daenerys's relationship with Drogo is highly disturbing.)

[Daidalos]

I agree with many of Brash's points above.

I think it's fair enough to say that Sansa is important only as others see her as important but that relates back to the central notion of power that Varys' touches upon, no? To paraphrase, People are powerful because others think they are powerful. But do you believe there is an absolute notion of importance separate from what others think? As Brash states above, and I would concur, there is. It's called being underestimated. No one thinks Sansa is important and yet - she (to be fair, without full prior knowledge) poisons Joffrey. I would say that's a fairly important act (and plot point).

Yes, she is important, but that has nothing to do with her own actions and decisions. She is a reed blowing in the wind. Nothing of this makes her as a character admirable, since her importance is 100% perception. Regarding underestimation: which character has made a virtue of being underestimated? Littlefinger. Look at what Jaime and Kevan think of him: useful, but not dangerous. He exploits this perception, Sansa hasn't. Or, she hasn't made impressive use of it yet.

However, I would agree that Sansa is not as intelligent as LF. Nor would I expect her to be. And no - no one woman has risen to the heights of the game - though I believe by the end of the series, this will have changed. As Brash, again, correctly points out - this is a patriarchical society. I'm impressed that so many women have overcome a lack of training to be in the positions they are (which in and of itself testifies to their strength). Yes, some very highborn women are taught to read and numbers - but they are also taught how to embroider, dance and sing. While their brothers learn war tactics and swordsmanship. But I think it's wrong to de-value a woman or say she's less interesting or less powerful just because she may enjoy these pursuits as well.

Everyone can have their hobbies and I don't begrudge Sansa hers. But they do not make her powerful. And, I am sorry to say, it makes her less interesting in my eyes.

Finally, as to the Sandor relationship - I appreciate it's not for everyone, and that's fair enough. We all read things different ways. But I find it hard to believe that you can call him a violent murderer and express concern over abuse and praise LF only paragraphs above. Sandor has killed men. So has Ned Stark. So has Robert Baratheon. In battle and in the line of duty. LF has killed (Ned Stark, Joffrey, Lysa, etc.) all for his personal motives and gain. These were pre-planned, well thought out acts - which is actually what makes them murder as opposed to manslaughter. His treatment of Sansa as both a daughter and 'lover' is much more emotionally abusive than Sandor's rough words. So you may not like them together and I understand why - but LF is much more dangerous (physically and emotionally) to Sansa than Sandor ever would be.

It seems I am doomed to be misunderstood. I call Sandor a violent murderer because that is what he is, just as Littlefinger is a sociopath, Ned Stark a hypocrite whose moral code is harmful to himself, his family and to society, and as Robert Baratheon is a drunken wife-abuser and would-be murderer of children. (By the way, when I call Sandor a murderer, I refer to his killing of Mycah. That was not in battle, and I don't think it exuses his behaviour that it was conducted in the line of duty.) However, you will note that I am not advocating a relationship between Sansa and Littlefinger. That too would be perverse. I like Littlefinger AS A CHARACTER; I like Sandor AS A CHARACTER. But I wouldn't want to see either of them in a romantic relationship with Sansa.

[Queen of Spades]

Yes, Sandor will become a lord and marry Sansa and live in a big house made out of lemon cakes in the middle of King's Landing with puppies and stray cats. :bs:

In the meanwhile, a bat flies out of Varys arse.

Erhm, who said this would happen? :) I can't really see that I wrote anything like that, but if you disagree, feel free to point out where. I'd be interested to know.

True. I would have remembered if you had mentionned Varys's arse ! :leaving:

I don’t understand why people think that just because she’s a preteen girl who eats lemoncakes means that she has a gentler heart than Dany. When she was still a child of summer she saw Ser Hugh die and it gave her little to no reaction. In ACOK she prayed like her sister, for the Lannisters to lose. In AFFC, Petyr told her that they are expecting company and she said something like I’d sooner watch him marry a Frey. Sansa is not an angel, she understands death from Sandor’s teachings and if she truly makes the transition from pawn to (the) player then Kinslaying is the first step

Before the Battle of the Blackwater, she did not pray for the Lannisters to lose, she prayed for Joffrey to lose and die. Otherwise, let's see :

She sang for her mother and her father, fo her grand father Lord Hoster, for her uncle Edmure Tully, for her friend Jeyne Poole, for old drunken King Robert, for Septa Mordane and Ser Dontos and Jory Cassel and Maester Luwin, for all the brave knights and soldiers who would die today, and for the children and the wifes who would mourn them and finally, towards the end, she even sang for Tyrion the Imp and for the Hound.

Seems to me she is including both sides in her payers...

Then, during the battle, she helps Lancel Lannister (the guy who stood by Joffrey's side while he had her beaten, stripped and humiliated), and speaks to calm the guests (the people who ignored her since her father's disgrace).

She has a gentle heart !

[Wouter]

You think what Sansa feels for Sandor is some sort of shallow infatuation? She's showed that she *can* feel that, as seen with Loras, when she gets totally bedazzled by his good looks, feels she cannot walk straight or talk when he is near etc. showing all sorts of signs that she has a massive crush on him and that it affects her both mentally a physically. She dreams of running her hands over his chest and she admires his amazing good looks. Sansa feels nothing like this around the Hound, it has a completely different flavour.

When it comes to Sandor, she has few illusions. She has seen him drunk, rude, violent, smelling of vomit and covered in blood. She's shouted and raged at him, yet despite it all she sees him as someone who would never harm her and who will tell her a lot of useful truths about people. He's got her back, you might say. Which makes the corner stone for their relationship at least on Sansa's part trust instead of infatuation or passion.

True, and I don't see it as shallow infatuation (on either side). However, I do question if the less pleasant side of Sandor's character wouldn't be be a barrier for a lasting and strong relationship, the way he was in ASOS. He did save Sansa, he did try to help her, he did appreciate her and not because he felt he had something to gain from that, he gave her honest advice, all true. But he also did put a knife at her throat, said pretty awful things to her, and at times he was a violent drunk - not really the dream son-in-law that (modern) parents would want for their daughter.

Sandor now has changed a lot and seems to have left his less pleasant sides behind, but joining a religious order like that is also an obvious barrier for hooking up with Sansa, especially in an official marriage.

The fact remains though that the Tyrells in power really didn't think that much of her and only wanted her for her claim, which is what Sansa has come to loathe. Her main laments in AFFC are that she is only wanted for her claim and that nobody will love her for herself (in itself proof of who long she's come since she wanted to be Joffrey's Queen so very very badly). Even to the Tyrells, she was a piece of meat with a claim to Winterfell. It didn't matter to them if Sansa had been tall, short, fat, stupid, smart or ever been happy in Highgarden: what they wanted was her ticket to Winterfell.

True.

I see where you are coming from, but that would mean a very, very tragic end to Sansa's arc as she'd have to do what she loathes: sell her agency and become the piece of meat again, which is what she hates. That would be equal to hoping Dany never bears a living child, I think. It *may* happen, but it would be an incredibly cruel ending, especially to Sansa who's basically been pushed around the entire series so far. Should her ending really be that she submits to being pushed around for ever?

Well, a political marriage doesn't necessarily mean being pushed around for ever - Catelyn wasn't pushed around all that much.

I wonder if Dany will bear a living child. If she does, I think the chances of Sansa not having to marry for political reasons increase, because then there will be a clear heir for the throne in the Targaryen lineage.

The end of ADWD seems to suggest Dany may not be barren after all, but the end game of ASOIAF is still very hard to second guess. The vision of the throne room in the Red Keep that Dany got in the final S2 episode of GOT is rather intriguing in this regard, at least if it is based on info from Martin we aren't privy to (if D&D just made it up completely, then not, I guess).