From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa II

[Tumnas the Torpid]

@brashcandy: Regarding that quote from Littlefinger in Feast...

Let's imagine that Sansa may end up having to outmaneuver Littlefinger himself, before all is said and done. What, exactly, do you think he wants?

[Grail King]

I think that Sansa will begin to separate Alayne from Sansa to an unwanted extreme - that is to say, she will create two distinct identities and eventually they will become so different from each other that Sansa will have a hard time deciding who she really is, and who she wants to be I'm not suggesting that she will become some sort of schizophrenic or anything like that, I just mean that she - like many teenage girls - will experience an identity crisis of sorts that leads her to reconsider whether or not she wants to 'go back to being Sansa' (and everything Sansa was/represented) or 'stay being Alayne' (the confident/free/older/wiser version of herself)

I can go with this as long as she doesn't give up her name, I think of these books as a coming of age for this generation of Starks, more aware, still loved but better educated than their parents in the ways of politics and the world around them.

Sansa should be able to do it especially once LF, Cersei and Illyan Payne are gone.

[Tumnas the Torpid]

Oh, that makes sense. Sorry to jump on you. My reaction was a little harsh regardless, but I have heard numerous arguments implying quite strongly (or, occasionally, even outright stating) that Sansa is unworthy/ shallow/ insipid because she has some interests society regards as typically feminine. A few time people even criticized her for being a pretty girl...for some reason. :ack: Thanks!

I actually like Sansa. When I compare her to Cersei, I'm not making a moral condemnation. Basically, I think that Sansa's life may be preparing her to succeed, where Cersei has failed (miserably). I hope that, if that comes to pass, Sansa will also have room for happiness and healthy relationships (sexual or otherwise).

[brashcandy]

@brashcandy: Regarding that quote from Littlefinger in Feast...

Let's imagine that Sansa may end up having to outmaneuver Littlefinger himself, before all is said and done. What, exactly, do you think he wants?

Hard to say really :) He wants power, respect, and prestige of course, but he also wants to get the girl. In many ways we've been led to think of Littlefinger as this great mastermind and manipulator, fearing what he does next, thinking that he's capable of anything, and in a way, yeah, that's all true; but his motivations are actually very petty and juvenile I believe. I think his telling Sansa that young girls are happier with older men gives us a clue that he's ultimately planning for them to end up together.

[Elba the Intoner]

Hi all. I have read these last two and so pages with much interest. I happened to post something on volume I of this thread, p. 18, post #359, regarding the biblical character Jezebel which I feel is very relevant to this discussion. Since it seems like there are quite a few new posters here and some who have been gone for a bit and have came back, I thought I would bring it up again here. The more I think about Jezebel, she reminds me a lot of Cersei and I wonder if Cersei was even modeled off of her somewhat.

If anyone who hasn't read it yet is interested in the background of Jezebel, you can take a look at the post above that I referred to, and also voodooqueen126's response to that post on p. 19, #373 and my response to voodooqueen126 on p. 20, #387. The thing about Jezebel is that she is most known for her final act of defying those who overthrew her and killed her husband and son to end their reign by painting her face with make up and dressing up even though she knew they would kill her. She did this because any queen going out in public must dress up and look the part to show the world that she is still queen. In essence she was saying "Screw you, I am still the Queen and I will die like a Queen" to those who overthrew her. This reminds me a lot of when Cersei was in the throne room during the BoBW and had Ilyn Payne there. She told Sansa that if Stannis wins she doesn't mean for him to take her or any of them alive and Payne will cut off her head before she bows down to Stannis. Jezebel was also known for using sex to control her husband and to get men to do what she wanted, just as Cersei does.

For this final act of painting her face and dressing up, Jezebel's name has become associated with prostitution and she is remembered throughout history as being a wonton, morally corrupt woman. Many people on this forum have denounced Cersei in the same way, focusing on her use of sex to try and control men and wield power that way.

However, Jezebel's real problem was that she ruled badly, trying to impose her own views on her subjects and forcing them to give up their lands, and having temples to her own gods built which completely went against the religious views of the people. In short, she could not make her subjects love her, just as Cersei does not. Cersei has a very demeaning view of her subjects, which is also painfully obvious in the scene during the BoBW when she talks about how these crying women are so weak, the way to keep people loyal is to have them fear you, etc. Her complete disregard for the feelings of others in an effort to maintain control and power are the reasons to dislike Cersei, not the fact that she is a sexual being alone. It's the fact that she uses sex and tries to wield power in a ruthless manner because she believes she is better than everyone else and that is the reason to dislike Cersei. So, in essence the reasons to dislike Cersei are not because she behaves like a Jezebel, but because she behaves like the Jezebel.

[Tumnas the Torpid]

Hard to say really :) He wants power, respect, and prestige of course, but he also wants to get the girl. In many ways we've been led to think of Littlefinger as this great mastermind and manipulator, fearing what he does next, thinking that he's capable of anything, and in a way, yeah, that's all true; but his motivations are actually very petty and juvenile I believe. I think his telling Sansa that young girls are happier with older men gives us a clue that he's ultimately planning for them to end up together.

That was what I meant to suggest. In addition, I think Sansa may have the potential to eventually manipulate the master manipulator himself, along these lines.

[Lady Kraken]

That was what I meant to suggest. In addition, I think Sansa may have the potential to eventually manipulate the master manipulator himself, along these lines.

I agree, and I think, unwittingly, she's already caused him to misstep along these lines. I read the snow castle/creepy kiss scene as him being overwhelmed by Sansa at that moment and forgetting himself. It's really one of the only times he screws up in the series, in my opinion at least. Ideally, I imagine he would have wanted to stay married to Lysa longer, cement his grasp on the Eyrie, probably get her pregnant with a child with a potential claim to Riverrun... Kissing Sansa in the open like that was a huge risk and one that ended up putting them both in a precarious position in the Vale. If Lysa saw, who else saw, too? Petyr Baelish is a smart man, but that was a dumb move and a possible indicator of things to come.

I think Sansa is starting to realize just a bit that she can have this effect on him and on other men as well. I was a bit shocked when she flirted a little with the knights in her last AFfC chapter. And there's a line in AFfC that stuck out to me on re-read: "Petyr saved me. He loved my mother well, and... And her? How could she doubt it? He had saved her. He saved Alayne, his daughter, a voice within her whispered. But she was Sansa too..."

She realizes he's invested in her and that there's more to it than this simulated father/daughter relationship that Petyr has created. And over the course of her story, she's been more and more exposed to sex as well as the pitfalls of love and has had two mentors that have used and manipulated others with sex/love for advancement (Cersei and Petyr). I don't think it's a stretch that she might try to manipulate Petyr in a similar way. I personally hope it doesn't go as far as actual sex, because... well, honestly, I just have zero desire to read that. But the more she comes to understand the effect she has on Petyr and his less than altruistic motives regarding her, her family, and others, she might start trying to manipulate him along these lines, as Tumnas said.

She's still quite innocent at the end of Feast, but I can see that changing a bit if Petyr starts schooling her in how to seduce Harry into wanting to marry her. He points out her beauty a lot, actually. I remember him saying that one day men would drown in her eyes, or something along those lines. Almost everyone she meets comments on her looks. These comments might make her more aware of the effect she can have. A relationship with the older, more experienced Mya and Myranda could change things as well. Petyr's feelings for her are certainly one of the few advantages she has over him--the much older, more experienced master game player.

To be clear, I don't see her using sex in the same way Cersei sometimes does. I think Cersei as a mentor was mainly an important lesson in what not to do when in power (rule with love not fear and all that). Sansa's future is, in my opinion, one of the hardest to predict, and I'm interested to see where Martin takes her from here. I always feel uncomfortable talking about the character in this way because she's so damn young, but it's just hard to deny the fact that sex and love have been important aspects of her arc so far. Hope that all makes sense.

[Fire Eater]

Hi all. I have read these last two and so pages with much interest. I happened to post something on volume I of this thread, p. 18, post #359, regarding the biblical character Jezebel which I feel is very relevant to this discussion. Since it seems like there are quite a few new posters here and some who have been gone for a bit and have came back, I thought I would bring it up again here. The more I think about Jezebel, she reminds me a lot of Cersei and I wonder if Cersei was even modeled off of her somewhat. If anyone who hasn't read it yet is interested in the background of Jezebel, you can take a look at the post above that I referred to, and also voodooqueen126's response to that post on p. 19, #373 and my response to voodooqueen126 on p. 20, #387. The thing about Jezebel is that she is most known for her final act of defying those who overthrew her and killed her husband and son to end their reign by painting her face with make up and dressing up even though she knew they would kill her. She did this because any queen going out in public must dress up and look the part to show the world that she is still queen. In essence she was saying "Screw you, I am still the Queen and I will die like a Queen" to those who overthrew her. This reminds me a lot of when Cersei was in the throne room during the BoBW and had Ilyn Payne there. She told Sansa that if Stannis wins she doesn't mean for him to take her or any of them alive and Payne will cut off her head before she bows down to Stannis. Jezebel was also known for using sex to control her husband and to get men to do what she wanted, just as Cersei does. For this final act of painting her face and dressing up, Jezebel's name has become associated with prostitution and she is remembered throughout history as being a wonton, morally corrupt woman. Many people on this forum have denounced Cersei in the same way, focusing on her use of sex to try and control men and wield power that way. However, Jezebel's real problem was that she ruled badly, trying to impose her own views on her subjects and forcing them to give up their lands, and having temples to her own gods built which completely went against the religious views of the people. In short, she could not make her subjects love her, just as Cersei does not. Cersei has a very demeaning view of her subjects, which is also painfully obvious in the scene during the BoBW when she talks about how these crying women are so weak, the way to keep people loyal is to have them fear you, etc. Her complete disregard for the feelings of others in an effort to maintain control and power are the reasons to dislike Cersei, not the fact that she is a sexual being alone. It's the fact that she uses sex and tries to wield power in a ruthless manner because she believes she is better than everyone else and that is the reason to dislike Cersei. So, in essence the reasons to dislike Cersei are not because she behaves like a Jezebel, but because she behaves like the Jezebel.

In one instance, Jezebel had a peasant, Naboth, killed so she and her husband could seize his vineyard for a garden of herbs. Cersei tries to have the Rosby lands and gold seized for the Crown while having people killed for different reasons.

Jezebel is later killed when her family is overthrown with her family wiped out. Cersei is definitely headed in that direction.

Sansa has the one thing that would have actually made Cersei a better ruler: compassion. Cersei expects people to regard her when she has nor regard for them.

.

[Sand11751]

Like Theon says, you have to know your name. I hope Sansa reclaims her identity as she kicks that slime bucket Littlefinger through the Moon Door. She can never go back to being just Sansa - certainly not the girl who fawned over Joffrey and lemon cakes. On second thought let her have all the lemon cakes she wants, cause by all the old gods and new, she's damn well earned them! Nor is she the one who endured the KG's beatings. Sansa's the ultimate survivor, a far cry from the twit I couldn't stand when I first started reading the books. To survive, I think she has to arm herself with Alayne Stone's instincts, but she can't let the identity that LF created for her take over completely. Such a drastic change in her personality lets LF win.

[Lyanna Stark]

She's still quite innocent at the end of Feast, but I can see that changing a bit if Petyr starts schooling her in how to seduce Harry into wanting to marry her. He points out her beauty a lot, actually. I remember him saying that one day men would drown in her eyes, or something along those lines. Almost everyone she meets comments on her looks. These comments might make her more aware of the effect she can have. A relationship with the older, more experienced Mya and Myranda could change things as well. Petyr's feelings for her are certainly one of the few advantages she has over him--the much older, more experienced master game player.

:agree:

Ultimately, Littlefinger is only a man. If he (and Myranda) teaches Sansa how to woo and seduce Harry, she can turn those skills around on Littlefinger himself. LF may be the master manipulator, but as we have discussed before, it's like he can't help himself but is creating a doomsday weapon in Sansa in that he wants her to be both his protege/accomplice AND he wants to "get the girl". While also keeping all the secrets and betrayals he has caused the Starks under wraps, of course.

In the snowcaste scene he is definitely showing his weakness when he kisses Sansa. I actually think that he's showing other signs of this in AFFC, both when he asks Sansa to be Alayne in her heart and touches her rather inappropriately (and she coyly answers "Of course father, what else would I be?" which I thought was a brilliant answer) and in the last chapter when he presents the marriage proposal with Harry the Heir and frames it with having her sit on his lap and then demanding kisses of her (and not the chaste, fatherly kind either).

The last AFFC scene in particular is where I think he is the most obvious, since he's talking marriage and seduction while having Sansa in his lap and kissing her. He couldn't really announce his intentions any more clearly without coming out and saying it. Granted, the marriage propsal is for another man, but LF does his best to undermine Harry and elevate himself in the conversation with Sansa, plus indicating as well that Sansa belongs with him, not with Harry, since they are both in on the "secret" that Harry is beneath them and is easily manipulated.

No, my intention was not to suggest that Sansa will begin to prostitute herself. As a highborn maiden, Sansa would have been thought that sex is strictly for the marriage bed, to "grin and bear it" or as she remembers Septa Mordane telling her: find something/anything appealing about her husband. Useful advice perhaps, but strictly related to women's subservient roles in society. Her virginity also became a bargaining chip tied to her claim to Winterfell, plus she had overly romanticised, unrealistic notions about men and women.

That's a very good way of putting it. :)

Being a bastard girl and interacting with the assorted women she now has, Sansa will have had a lot more and much more varied input about sex and love than she ever would as a highborn lady. Having a more functional and realistic view on what to expect will certainly help her in more ways than one, too.

As we have seen, in ASOIAF, the pattern is that infatuation and unrealistic expectations mean doomed love, sometimes on an epic scale. Having a more down to earth and realistic view on how people act and think, what that entails and the repercussions will help her in interpreting and playing the Game of Thrones, apart from being helpful on a personal level of course. At the very least it should help her so she never has to experience anything like the dreadful wedding night with Tyrion again, where she just has no real idea what she should do. :stillsick: :crying:

[Kittykatknits]

I've always been interested in this thread, but intimidated by the sheer volume of postage it contained. Is it possible to get in on the ground floor, now? If I say that I think Sansa my end up as a sort-of Cersei 2.0, will that just be old hat?

I didn't come in until the last thread was ten pages long or so and feel like I'm still playing catch-up.

Though Cersei does countless things worthy of scorn, it's fascinating (if dispiriting) to note how many threads on this forum are dedicated to unbraiding her for being a bad wife to Robert, for wanting power and independence, and for not wanting to get married again after his death.

I am probably a very small minority in this but one of the things I admire Cersei for the most is choosing the father of her children. I know the common arguments regarding treason and the problems of succession and can understand them. But, as a women, choosing who to bear our children is one of the most basic and fundamental decisions we make. For her to make this choice, in her role and in this society, took quite a bit of courage.

When Tywin assess her as "pliable" is is not corrrect-- or, not completely correct. She will externally go along with events, but retains an inner rebellion. And a need for autonomy and to have a say in her own future that is similar, in some way, to Cersei's own, despite the other countless differences in their characters. This desire shows through when Sansa (as I've mentioned), went to Joffrey and Cersei about Ned's choice, attempting to secure her own future happiness rather than having her fate dictated to her; when she refuses to kneel when being forced to marry Tyrion; when she admits she does not desire Tyrion, and probably never will; when she plans to tell Lysa Arryn that she doesn't want to marry little Robert, because that is not what her heart desires. Interestingly, it is these acts that are most criticized by readers, and noted as evidence of Sansa's badness.

I agree with you. From my observations with much of the fan base (which is limited), there is a type of female character that is most respected or admired. Arya and Brienne receive very little criticism for their actions because they conform to a particular type of female "badassery" (is that a word?) whereas the actions you describe are usual labeled "passive". I believe many readers form an opinion of Sansa as a character in the first book which then colors the impression through the rest of the series. So, her actions are not interpreted as being feminist, rather they are almost random individual incidents. In the first case, she practically killed her father, a popular character. The same thing again, those were mean or hurtful actions towards Tyrion, another fan favorite.

As discussed previously, there is only a certain amount of capital that women in Westeros are in possession of, and sex, is one of them. Tyrion is able to literally buy his allegiance, by continually promising that Casterly Rock will pay his debts, but does Cersei have this same ability? Certainly she does buy allegiance to a large extent, but I always got the impression she had less authority to generate personal debt than Tyrion did. More importantly, what I think GRRM is showing is not that sexualized females are in themselves negative, but an over reliance on sex as a payment mechanism or a way to buy allegiance is.

Great post. I'm out of likes for the day but wanted to comment on your post specifically. As a tangent thought to what you are saying, I'd love to have seen Cersei lobby for a position on the small council while Robert was still alive. I'm certain she could have been quite a force.

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<snip>

Two really great posts!

Queen Cersei I - I always enjoy reading what you have to say on this board. I admit that I don't always agree with you 100% but you always make me think and offer some much needed balance to some of the discussions that take place on here.

WRT to Dany, I agree with both of you. I have always found her relationship to be rather troubling and disturing. One of the (few) changes the TV show has made that I really appreciated was altering their wedding night. The way it came across in the series was, to me, a much more realistic depiction on how their wedding night would have looked. I hesitate to ask, but has anyone read a romance novel from the 70's or 80s? The story is pretty much the same in every one. The heroine is much younger and in a subservint role to the older, richer, more educated, more experienced male. She is always an inexperienced virgin until he comes along to teach her all about sex. Usually, he treats her pretty bad, ignores her, demeans her at some point but she still falls in love with him anyways. Ask me how I know....Dany and Drogo's relationship remind me of those same books. I add in the fact that their relationship was written by a man and I find it very unsettling.

After reading these two posts, I took a look at Asha's first POV chapter in Dance as that is the one where she has sex with Qarl the Maid. Asha does mention her body but only as required to describe the scene:

...tore off her tunic to let her breasts spill out....

...he sucked her nipples till she cried out half in pain and half in pleasure...

...Her breasts were sore, and Qarl's seed was trickling down her thigh.

This contrasts pretty strongly with the desciption that goes in to Qarl's body:

Qarl pleased her more tan all the rest together. He might shave but once a fortnight, but a shaggy beard does not make a man. She liked the feel of his smooth, soft skin beneath her fingers. She liked the way his long, straight hair brushed her against his shoulders. She liked the way he kissed. She lked how he grinned when she brushed her thumbs across his nipples. The hair between his legs was a darkers shade of sand than the hair on his head, but fine as down compared to the coarse black bush around her own sex. She liked that too. He had a swimmer's body, long and lean, with not a scar upon him.

It's less sexualized that the descriptions that Aerys used but the focus is still on the other person in each POV.

[Queen Cersei I]

The more I think about Jezebel, she reminds me a lot of Cersei and I wonder if Cersei was even modeled off of her somewhat. If anyone who hasn't read it yet is interested in the background of Jezebel, you can take a look at the post above that I referred to, and also voodooqueen126's response to that post on p. 19, #373 and my response to voodooqueen126 on p. 20, #387. The thing about Jezebel is that she is most known for her final act of defying those who overthrew her and killed her husband and son to end their reign by painting her face with make up and dressing up even though she knew they would kill her. She did this because any queen going out in public must dress up and look the part to show the world that she is still queen. In essence she was saying "Screw you, I am still the Queen and I will die like a Queen" to those who overthrew her. This reminds me a lot of when Cersei was in the throne room during the BoBW and had Ilyn Payne there. She told Sansa that if Stannis wins she doesn't mean for him to take her or any of them alive and Payne will cut off her head before she bows down to Stannis. Jezebel was also known for using sex to control her husband and to get men to do what she wanted, just as Cersei does. For this final act of painting her face and dressing up, Jezebel's name has become associated with prostitution and she is remembered throughout history as being a wonton, morally corrupt woman. Many people on this forum have denounced Cersei in the same way, focusing on her use of sex to try and control men and wield power that way. However, Jezebel's real problem was that she ruled badly, trying to impose her own views on her subjects and forcing them to give up their lands, and having temples to her own gods built which completely went against the religious views of the people. In short, she could not make her subjects love her, just as Cersei does not. Cersei has a very demeaning view of her subjects, which is also painfully obvious in the scene during the BoBW when she talks about how these crying women are so weak, the way to keep people loyal is to have them fear you, etc. Her complete disregard for the feelings of others in an effort to maintain control and power are the reasons to dislike Cersei, not the fact that she is a sexual being alone. It's the fact that she uses sex and tries to wield power in a ruthless manner because she believes she is better than everyone else and that is the reason to dislike Cersei. So, in essence the reasons to dislike Cersei are not because she behaves like a Jezebel, but because she behaves like the Jezebel.

The Cersei= Jezebel comparison fascinates me. Not least of all because here you seem to take the utterly black picture of Jezebel painted by her enemies as pure fact. (Which, for the record, numerous historians today do not.)

In Kings, Jezebel is castigated for maintaining her cultural beliefs, “worshiping idols” and encouraging her husband to do the same, controlling her weak willed husband, and, overall being a strong willed, ambitious woman. Your noting of her murdering the some Israelite religious leaders is actually a far more minor issue; mentioned at one point in a throwaway comment “Jezebel was killing off the prophets of the Lord.” Yet for numerous people, Jezebel’s “worship of idols”, adherence to her own religious beliefs, desire for power, and unabashed political interferences is more than enough to make her the personification of evil. Here, you characterize her as the biblical version of Cersei Lannister.

But looking at things from an alternate perspective, one could easily come to a completely different judgment of Jezebel. One could look at her and see a woman who, strong willed and independent, bravely adheres to her own deeply held beliefs rather than assimilating to those of her native land. A woman who, in a few cases, protects those of her own religion from violence and persecution. (Interestingly, Jezebel is criticized even more harshly for her acts of religious tolerance than for her acts of persecution. It is noted with great disapproval that Jezebel stepped in to protect worshippers of Baal from being put to death for their religious beliefs; this is clearly categorized as among her most heinous crimes.) And a woman who, whatever her faults, went out with undeniable style and courage.

Your categorization of her as a horrible, inept ruler (a la Cersei) is also problematic. If one completely accepts that God really did stop it from raining and instigated a famine because of his wrath over Jezebel’s idol worship, then yes, it really is all Jezebel’s fault. However, plenty of modern historians, attempting to separate Jezebel’s actual personality from the religious agenda with which she is presented, have believed that she was actually a fairly competent ruler. Evidence that she inordinately punished/ persecuted/ murdered those of other religious faiths is not present. As I noted before, it is her religious tolerance and protection of those of her own faith, even more than her persecutions, that Jezebel is criticized for.

Furthermore, many of the people she shows ruthlessness against really ARE her political enemies. When the saintly Elijah triumphed at mount Carmel, he had no problem with slaughtering 450 innocent prisoners, simply because they are of a different religion. (He specifically orders for not a single person to get away. But don’t worry—God approves.) In addition to Elijah being praised whilst performing far worse atrocities than Jezebel, the fact is that Jezebel's going after Elijah and similar prophets is not an action born of paranoia or cruelty. Jezebel doesn’t crazily think that Elijah is her enemy for no reason. Elijah brutally murders 450 people of Jezebel’s faith, simply for practicing their religion. Elijah is Jezebel’s enemy.

The problematic issue is not the fact that a woman who is guilty less of evil than of pride, ambition, and willfulness has gone down in history as the synonym for female wickedness. It is that even today, there is a view of specifically female evil, that is colored by commonly held but incredibly subtle fears and prejudices that continue to permeate our society. A woman who is willing to use sex to get ahead, who lusts for power more than marriage/ family happiness, who is not afraid to go up against men to get what she wants, who is strong willed, proud, and unwilling to compromise—all these things are still traits that characterize countless stock female villains. And not males. And there is something wrong with that.

The thing about Jezebel is that she is most known for her final act of defying those who overthrew her and killed her husband and son to end their reign by painting her face with make up and dressing up even though she knew they would kill her.

Jezebel was overthrown by treachery. Her son was murdered—not honorably killed but murdered—by a man who had sworn to serve him. Jezebel then realized that she would be next, and that her death would likely be bloody and horrifying. Yet rather than fleeing or begging, she chose to put on her finest clothes, makeup, and go out like a queen. She then proceeded to cast scorn upon her murderer for his duplicity, and his choice to basically stab her son in the back to take his power. You note this as proof that she is unforgivable, a la Cersei. I’d say that this was her finest moments.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

The thing about Jezebel is that she is most known for her final act of defying those who overthrew her and killed her husband and son to end their reign by painting her face with make up and dressing up even though she knew they would kill her. She did this because any queen going out in public must dress up and look the part to show the world that she is still queen. In essence she was saying "Screw you, I am still the Queen and I will die like a Queen" to those who overthrew her. This reminds me a lot of when Cersei was in the throne room during the BoBW and had Ilyn Payne there. She told Sansa that if Stannis wins she doesn't mean for him to take her or any of them alive and Payne will cut off her head before she bows down to Stannis.

The crucial difference is that Cersei was determined to take Sansa, an innocent child, with her if she went down. Jezebel was sacrificing no one but herself. Her son had been murdered, she knew she would die, so she decided to go out with pride and dignity. There is some Cersei in this, however, there are some wild differences between the situations.

Jezebel was also known for using sex to control her husband and to get men to do what she wanted, just as Cersei does. For this final act of painting her face and dressing up, Jezebel's name has become associated with prostitution and she is remembered throughout history as being a wonton

This is flatly false. I urge you to go back and read the book of Kings. Jezebel never “uses sex…to get men to do what she wanted.” This may be something you fear and consider evil in women. But this is simply untrue, if one bothers to read Jezebel’s story in the text itself.

There is no evidence that Jezebel ever used sex to manipulate men. It is noted that she excersizes an inordinate amount of influence on her husband; but this is never connected to sex.

It's the fact that she uses sex and tries to wield power in a ruthless manner because she believes she is better than everyone else and that is the reason to dislike Cersei.

Really? I find your statements here highly contradictory. First you claim that Cersei is hated for her cruelty, then the summation of why she is/ should be hated exemplifies all the ridiculous reasons people have for hating her.

Why is Cersei’s pride or sex life relevant?

Your connection of her with Jezebell is also interesting. "So, in essence the reasons to dislike Cersei are not because she behaves like a Jezebel, but because she behaves like the Jezebel." In fact, in the actual text of the bible, there is nothing to suggest any sexual deviance whatsoever on Jezebel’s part. She is loyal to her husband in marriage, and does not appear to have taken a lover after his death. Her using sex to get ahead is never once mentioned, ever. Yet she has gone down in history as a synonym for female promiscuity and harlotry.

I can’t help but feel this shows how wideheld social prejudices and fears have a way of connecting themselves to popular mythology and archetypes. Even though Jezebell was not in the least promiscuous, she was an “unnatural”, power hungry, iron willed, and beautiful woman. Therefore, she must have been using sex to get ahead. The hussy.

[Kittykatknits]

Littlefinger's advice to Sansa by contrast, does not stress using beauty or sex, but rather deciphering what it is that truly motivates someone, an act that calls for intelligent reasoning and a reliance on talents that go beyond the bedroom. I think that the second piece of advice is obviously a lot more empowering, and given the trajectory of Sansa's arc, having to hide her noble birth, with Winterfell fallen and posing as a bastard, she's been forced into drawing on other strengths which women like Cersei simply neglect to foster.

I find it amusing that Sansa was given the same advice by Sandor all the way back in GOT. He gave her the idea of giving what others want. This advice, when combined with her armor of courtesy, is the reason she was able to survive her time in KL. I think Sansa already understands what LF is telling her on an instinctual level, she's quite good at it.

And it´s much more effective if you keep it a promise out of reach, I think. Also I think Sansa´s becoming a selfaware grownup woman doesn´t depend on her acting out her sexuality, though it could help. Though I don´t see a good chance of this without dangerous consequences, even for Alayne. She might profit from the experience of Myranda Royce and Mya Stone and I mean in general.

I agree, the phrase that comes to mind me for is feminine wiles.

Wow Queen Cersei that post will change how I read the sex bits in these books. I never really put any thought into what the characters were doing I always just presumed the graphic sex in these novels was there to try and arouse the reader. Much like the sex scene in every James bond movie. The best example is in the TV series GOT Osha has sex with Theon. there is no reason for it he was already in his room and not exactly watching the boys at the time. Its my opinion that that scene was designed just to show us some boobies.

The most over the top and unneeded scene took place during the second episode in LF's brothel. We are shown a threesome then realize that a man is receiving oral sex while spying on them and then LF is spying on that man. Really over the top.

I think that Sansa will begin to separate Alayne from Sansa to an unwanted extreme - that is to say, she will create two distinct identities and eventually they will become so different from each other that Sansa will have a hard time deciding who she really is, and who she wants to be I'm not suggesting that she will become some sort of schizophrenic or anything like that, I just mean that she - like many teenage girls - will experience an identity crisis of sorts that leads her to reconsider whether or not she wants to 'go back to being Sansa' (and everything Sansa was/represented) or 'stay being Alayne' (the confident/free/older/wiser version of herself)

I've wondered for awhile how the Alayne persona while play out. My hope is that Sansa will come to understand that the strengths she finds while playing as Alayne the bastard are actually her own. I don't want her to go back to being Sansa, I want her to understand that she has been Sansa all along and those traits have always been there. After all, it is Sansa where we saw her natural empathy and compassion come through. One of my biggest fears for her is that she will lose this side of herself.

I agree, and I think, unwittingly, she's already caused him to misstep along these lines. I read the snow castle/creepy kiss scene as him being overwhelmed by Sansa at that moment and forgetting himself. It's really one of the only times he screws up in the series, in my opinion at least. Ideally, I imagine he would have wanted to stay married to Lysa longer, cement his grasp on the Eyrie, probably get her pregnant with a child with a potential claim to Riverrun... Kissing Sansa in the open like that was a huge risk and one that ended up putting them both in a precarious position in the Vale. If Lysa saw, who else saw, too? Petyr Baelish is a smart man, but that was a dumb move and a possible indicator of things to come. her.

Great post. My theory is that others saw him kissing her too. We know that Maester Coleman as well as several servants were watching her build that castle so it is not an unreasonable suspicion. I like that Martin chose to show us this kiss before we have the big reveal about LF's scheming. We see his weakness and learn that LF is able to make mistakes. It makes for a sharper contrast with the later scene with Lysa. It's also the last Sansa POV in the book, so the reader is left wondering what LF's intentions and plans exactly are.

[Queen Cersei I]

Anyway... sorry for the off topicness! Back to Sansa:

Hard to say really :) He wants power, respect, and prestige of course, but he also wants to get the girl. In many ways we've been led to think of Littlefinger as this great mastermind and manipulator, fearing what he does next, thinking that he's capable of anything, and in a way, yeah, that's all true; but his motivations are actually very petty and juvenile I believe. I think his telling Sansa that young girls are happier with older men gives us a clue that he's ultimately planning for them to end up together.

Much like Tyrion, I'd say that LF equates power, prestige, and the respect he "deserves" with getting the girl. In ACOK, Tyrion frequently entangled his dreams of power, recognition, and respect with his feelings for Shae. For instance:

The fire in the bedchamber had burned down to embers, but the room was still warm. Shae had kicked off her blankets and sheets as she slept. She lay nude atop the featherbed, the soft curves of her young body limned in the faint glow from the hearth. Tyrion stood in the door and drank in the sight of her. Younger than Marei, sweeter than Dancy, more beautiful than Alayaya, she’s all I need and more.

...

Tyrion nipped at her small hard nipple and nestled his head on her shoulder. He did not pull out of her; would that he never had to pull out of her. “This is no dream,” he promised her. It is real, all of it, he thought, the wars, the intrigues, the great bloody game, and me in the center of it... me, the dwarf, the monster, the one they scorned and laughed at, but now I hold it all, the power, the city, the girl. This was what I was made for, and gods forgive me, but I do love it...

Clearly Tyrion associates "getting the girl" not only with personal happiness, but with social and political triumph, and proving himself great and all his dissenters wrong.

It seems as though it is very similar with LF. He connects his greatest moment of defeat and humiliation with losing the girl, Catelyn Tully. Not her as she is now, but the gorgeous, virginal, unattianably higborn lady she once was. His loss to Brandon Stark symbolized his loss of her, but also so much else. It was a great defeat and humiliation; and at the hands of those who, despite pretences, looked down on him and refused to consider him as a match due to his comparatively modest birth. I think a mixture of his humiliating defeat at the hands of House Tully and Stark, along with his innate sociopathy, combined to make LF who he is today. He is determined to defeat those who scoffed at and looked down upon him, and raise himself above them by whatever means necessary. He associates this triumph with Land, property, and a great title, but, similarly, with the girl-- the lovely young Catelyn Tully.

This is why he convinced Joffrey to off Ned, a decision that effectively started off the war of five kings. We learn in ADWD that the previous night, LF had asked to marry Sansa, but that Cersei had rejected him-- due to his low, humble birth. In addition to making it clear that it is his fantasy Cat, rather than the woman herself, that LF has wanted all along, it also clarifies how he equates "getting" her younger surrogate with triumph. It was not only Cersei's rejection of him as a husband for Sansa that set him off, imo, it was her reasons for doing so. Once again, LF is ignored, rejected, and patronized due to his low birth. But this time, he's not having it.

LF does not love Sansa any more than he truly loved Catelyn. His feelings for her are indeed disturbing, and bring Tyrion's view of his "loved" females Shae and Tysha to mind.

:agree: Ultimately, Littlefinger is only a man. If he (and Myranda) teaches Sansa how to woo and seduce Harry, she can turn those skills around on Littlefinger himself. LF may be the master manipulator, but as we have discussed before, it's like he can't help himself but is creating a doomsday weapon in Sansa in that he wants her to be both his protege/accomplice AND he wants to "get the girl".

The idea that Sansa will use LF's feelings for her as a sort of Achilles heel to bring him down is certainly a popular one. However, i'm not entirely sure I want to see it play out that way.

People have already, on various threads in this forum, accused Sansa of stupidity or intellectual mediocrity. LF, meanwhile, is touted as a magnificent bastard, to the extent that his deeds like the murder of Dontos are praised. Rather than bringing him down through his weakness (related to love and sexual desire) I'd rather see Sansa defeat LF squarely on his own terms-- by outsmarting him. Such a result would be utterly satisfying for me, and would give some perspective to those who loathe Sansa for what they (mistakenly, imo) percieve to be her lack of intelligence.

Being a bastard girl and interacting with the assorted women she now has, Sansa will have had a lot more and much more varied input about sex and love than she ever would as a highborn lady. Having a more functional and realistic view on what to expect will certainly help her in more ways than one, too.

I agree, however, being a female bastard in Westeros comes complete with its own set of significant dangers. Being married off to a man not of their chosing in some political alliance, then being subjected to repeated instances of rape, is the danger that highborn females face. Yet bastard born females, while they are less likely to be sold and sheltered from the world of sex until the big night, are also vulnerable in some ways highborns are not. They are more vulnerable to being taken advantage of and abandoned by highborn lords, as Maia's situation shows. And Marrillion's attempt to force Sansa make it clear that they are all too vulnerable to rape. If Sansa had not been secretly a highborn girl being guarded by her "father's" man, she would have been raped, and probably could have done little about it.

All in all, I certainly agree that Sansa's continued experiences (along with her newly changed status) have contributed to her being more knowlegable and realistic about sex. However, I think that all women in Westeros face countless (but different) obstacles and traps when it comes to sex and sexual exploitation. If one is born a peasant, one is more apt to be exposed to an earthy, honest attitude towards sex; however, one is also far more vulnerable to rape (especially during times of war and chaos) than highborn, or even middle class, ladies. One can chose one's own husband, but rape remains a looming danger. If one is born a highborn female, there is far more protection against stranger rape, and far less exposure to sexual behavior before one is ready. However, it is also likely that one will be pawned off to a man for a political alliance who can rape one whenever it suits him. Wiomen like Asha, Arrianne, the Sandsnakes, and others all have power and independent sexuality in large part because their father's allow it to them.

However, that Sansa has changed in her attitude towards sex and men is clear. When she hears of Harry the Heir and his very active sexual life, she is very cynical about him, and his ability to commit/ be a good husband. The old Sansa would probably have been infatuated by his looks, charm, and tourney prowess. Sansa of AFFC is far more cynical and knowing.

[Raksha the Demon]

I don't have a great admiration for women who use sex to get ahead; or for men who do the same thing. It's one thing to flirt; another to corrupt someone for one's own ends through sex. I never cared for that aspect of James Bond; and I felt sorry for Arys Oakheart when Arianne seduced him into going along with her plot to take control of Myrcella (though at least Arianne seems to have had some fondness for the poor guy and regretted his death). I despised Cersei's sexual manipulation of Lancel and whatsisname Osmund (or was it Osney); though at least the latter was an experienced adult who definitely seemed willing to be corrupted (though he was too dumb to realize that Cersei planned to discard him after he accomplished her purpose). I hated Littlefinger's romantic manipulation of Lysa - not sexual, but still playing on her love for him and her neediness, even though I don't like Lysa at all. It's true that the people being manipulated by Cersei and Littlefinger in these examples, except possibly for Lancel (who was, if I remember right, quite young), had the ability to choose not to be corrupted/seduced, but the seducer, man or woman, is ultimately a person I find in general to be morally repugnant.

Maybe I would have more tolerance for the seducers in ASoIaF if, at least in the actions I described, they seduced under duress (Jeyne Westerling might have been ordered by her own mother to seduce Robb Stark, which brings the question of family loyalty and parental coercion into play) or out of desperation if their lives were endangered or to protect others (such as TV-Osha seducing Theon). While it's true that Cersei had cast Margaery in the role of the younger queen of the prophecy, who supposedly will take everything she holds dear, I noticed that Cersei hated Margaery because Cersei wants to be the only beautiful, adored queen in Westeros, and Margaery dares to exert influence over Tommen, court the favor of the populace, and generally be young and fresh-looking and also quite intelligent. In other words, the line between Cersei setting out to engineer Margaery's ruin by getting the Kettleback to seduce her out of reasonable fear for her own future or out of jealousy is rather blurry.

I don't think Littlefinger intends for Alayne to seduce Harry into loving her, at least not seduce in the sexual sense; LF wants Alayne's maidenhead intact for now. We still don't know Littlefinger's long-term agenda regarding his 'daughter' and the boy who will inherit the Eyrie if Robert Arryn dies. There are two huge elephants in that room - a price on Sansa Stark's head along with the charge of accessory to regicide, and her marriage to Tyrion. But I think Littlefinger expects Alayne to 'seduce' Harry into a betrothal by making him fall into lust or love with her, without granting him any sexual favors. I think Alayne could do it; Harry is young, sought-after, but still provincial compared to Sansa Stark; she might be able to entice him merely by seeming charming but unattainable. I have the feeling that poor Harry has no idea what he's headed for...

Of course, there's Littlefinger's own endgame with Sansa. It's rather slimy that Littlefinger's directing her to charm Harry into agreeing to their betrothal while Littlefinger's actively seducing her. I think he plans to ultimately possess all of Sansa, not just a kiss or two or even the type of sex that would still leave her technically a virgin (and I'm hoping he doesn't get that far, ewww!). In my opinion, Sansa is definitely Littlefinger's achilles heel; he is investing more than might be good for him in this fantasy about reliving his thwarted desire for Catelyn with her daughter who he also views as his child. Which is a realistic GRRM touch - for all his brilliance, LF is not a Bond villain but a man, the master manipulator who will be brought down by a human weakness.

It could just be that Sansa-Alayne will employ in earnest on Littlefinger the seduction skills she practices on Harry - not physical/sexual seduction, but the art of enticement and illusion and manipulation; and she will undo him.

As for GRRM's sex scenes in ASoIaF; I tend to turn the page quickly; since I find them uninteresting and not at all titillating.

And I agree with Sand that I want Sansa to resurface with Alayne's boldness rather than Sansa to become Littlefinger Lite or a young female version of Littlefinger. There is, or at least has been, a light inside Sansa, her capacity for compassion, that I hope will remain, however politically astute she becomes.

[butterbumps!]

Anyway... sorry for the off topicness! Back to Sansa: Much like Tyrion, I'd say that LF equates power, prestige, and the respect he "deserves" with getting the girl.....snip

I know we've disagreed grievously before, but want to say that I find your thoughts on this really fascinating. I'm deeply regretting having contested you on these issues elsewhere.

Generally though, I just wanted to say that this thread and its predecessor have really been challenging my complaisance about portrayals of depicted sexuality. I don't really have anything to contribute- I'm way out of my league here- just wanted to say that I've always admired Sansa largely because she retains her femininity, and enjoy reading the way you all have taken on this analysis.

[Queen Cersei I]


I don't have a great admiration for women who use sex to get ahead; 


Few on these boards do. Such women are portrayed very negatively in these books. However, some (such as myself) may feel that in a patriarchal society in which female subservience to one's husband is condoned, marital rape is utterly allowed, and where men generally inherit, call the shots, and hold power, I'd say that women using sexual machinations to get ahead is understandable. But once again, I guess it all comes down to a matter of opinion.

Personally, I don't really see it as all that wrong, or, as you put it, "corrupting" for an adult to have consensual sex with another adult in order to get the other to perform some favor for them. Compared to the acts of rape, molestation, torture, and murder, two adults agreeing upon sex as payment seems like nothing to me. However, I think that selling one's body always has consequences in terms of self worth and self esteem, whether the woman (or man) in question realizes it or not.

The problematic issue is that women using sex to get ahead and men using the same are not, in my eyes, portrayed equally in these books. On one hand we have the endless focus on Cersei's sexual deeds; the inordinate amount of time spent focusing on this while her truly evil deeds get shorter shrift. Arrianne is presented positively (and, one might argue, lustfully), however, her storyline also comes complete with a didactic lesson. In the end, Arrianne learns that sleeping with Aerys and following her own will rather than listening to her daddy and knowing better than to use sex to get ahead led to death, mutilation, and epic disaster. Now she is "good" because she's learned not to use sex to get ahead (though utilizing feminine charm is A-Okay, as you point out here), and listen to her daddy/ patriarch.

Then there's Littlefinger. Lord Baelish uses sex to gain favors from Lysa, just as surely as Cersei uses it. Her cares nothing for her, finds her repulsive (as he points out to Tyrion), and sleeps with her solely to achieve his ends. And yet, though LF's creepy behavior towards Sansa that follows Lysa's murder is presented in very dark colors, nothing he did WRT using sex to get ahead with Lysa is either dwelt upon or truly demonized. The whole thing, of course, is made to look like a joke; and presented farcically. However, even at those times, it seems to be Lysa, the woman he goes to bed with, rather than LF, who gets the brunt of the caricature and scorn. Or, at least, that was the impression I always got from the following scene:


Lady Lysa and Lord Petyr had the third-story bedchamber to themselves, but the tower was small… and true to her word, he aunt screamed. It had begun to rain outside, driving the feasters into the hall one floor below, so they heard most every word. “Petyr,” her aunt moaned. “Oh Petyr, Petyr, sweet Petyr, oh oh oh. There Petyr, there. That’s where you belong.” Lady Lysa’s singer launched into a bawdy version of “Milady’s Supper,” but even his singing and playing could not drown out Lysa’s cries. “Make me a baby, Petyr”, she screamed, “Make me another sweet little baby. Oh, Petyr, precious, precious PEEEEEETYR!” Her last shriek was so loud that it set the dogs to barking, and two of her aunt’s ladies could scarce contain their mirth.

In comparison, LF gets off scott free. Though many here may blame him for his seduction of Lysa or see it as amoral, in the text itself, it seems, he receives little condemnation and demonization for it, if any at all. And while Cersei’s sexual machinations are frequently mentioned when listing her evil deeds (often in place of her acts of murder, torture, and cruelty), I have very, very rarely heard posters on these boards condemn LF for using sex to get what he wanted from Lysa. By far the most common thing I hear about the scenario was that Lysa was disgusting and crazy, and that “I cheered so loud when he killed her.”

despised Cersei's sexual manipulation of Lancel and whatsisname Osmund (or was it Osney); though at least the latter was an experienced adult who definitely seemed willing to be corrupted (though he was too dumb to realize that Cersei planned to discard him after he accomplished her purpose).

t's true that the people being manipulated by Cersei … in these examples, except possibly for Lancel (who was, if I remember right, quite young), had the ability to choose not to be corrupted/seduced, but the seducer, man or woman, is ultimately a person I find in general to be morally repugnant.

With all due respect, I’m not sure how anyone mentioned here was “corrupted” by Cersei. What I see is two people agreeing to consensual sex, knowing full well that it is basically a business agreement. This is hardly a beautiful, loving, classy situation, but I cannot fully believe that anyone here is being “corrupted” or violated as you imply. (Save for Lysa, who was murdered directly by her seducer.)

IMO, Osney, Osmund, and yes, even Lancel, are old and mature enough to make decisions about who they want to sleep with, and should be aware of the consequences of their sexual behavior. First, Lancel—he is nearly 17 in AGOT when he is “corrupted,” and nearly 19 in AGOT. I cannot see him as being violated or “corrupted.” He clearly wanted to have sex with Cersei quite badly, and thouroughly enjoyed doing so. And while it’s sad that he ended up falling in love with her, IMO, his eventual pathetic fate cannot be laid at Cersei’s feet—it clearly has far more to do with weaknesses in Lancel’s character that are there from the beginning. Lancel knew Cersei was sleeping with him to accomplish her ends (murdering Robert.) He knew she saw him as a replacement Jaime, and even tried to adhere to this role. He made his own choices, and though his eventual fate is one that inspires pity in my heart, I cannot say I see Cersei as responsible for ultimately corrupting or destroying him.

As for the Kettleblack’s, I think that suggesting that Cersei has in any respect “corrupted” them is, with all due respect, fairly silly. Here are two grown men (in their late twenties to early thirties) who clearly knew Cersei was making a deal with them—sexual favors in exchange for wicked deeds. They were only too happy to agree with this, and clearly indicated that they had committed atrocities in the past, and had no problem doing so once again. (“I’ve killed more boys than I can count,” says Osney Kettleblack proudly.) They know what they are getting into with Cersei, clearly agree to the sex in return for favors agreement, and show every sign of being utterly immoral before ever associating with, or being “corrupted” by, Cersei.

Getting back to Sansa, I could really care less whether or not she uses sex to get ahead. However, given her sensitivity and lack of experience and the clearly important role that love plays in sex for her, I’d say that to do so might cause some emotional damage and pain for her. Which is something that I really don’t want to see anymore of.

Also, her self-respect seems to be connected to her autonomy; IMO, if Tyrion would have forced her, her self worth would have plummeted. Similarly, it seems that using sex to get her way would leave her depressed and depleted. So while I (unlike many others) really see no huge, looming moral issues WRT women in patriarchal environments using sex to get their way/ improve their situations, I hope (for reasons having to do with her character) that Sansa will never do so. Or be forced to do so.

[Lummel]

...Back to Sansa: Much like Tyrion, I'd say that LF equates power, prestige, and the respect he "deserves" with getting the girl...

I agree entirely with this reading of Littlefinger, I don't see him as motivated by a desire to gain political power for its own sake, but rather by this driving belief that the world has been profoundly unfair to him in denying him the girl which his talents so richly deserve in his opinion. It's all about showing everybody how clever and smart he is so that they can pat him on the head and give him the girl. Except that they are not going to give him the girl, so he decides to take her instead.

Clearly his relationships with the Tully women are a fantasy. It has been pointed out quite nicely a couple of times in these threads how poorly he understands what Sansa actually whats these days and is with Harry the Heir just projecting what he imagines that she wants on to her. I concur with the view that this fantasy is going to blind him, (I'm secretly hoping that true romance is not dead and that Littlefinger gets to meet up again with Catelyn :love: , that's a reunion I could look forward to so long as there are plenty of trees and a length of good rope involved).

[Maroucia]

I am probably a very small minority in this but one of the things I admire Cersei for the most is choosing the father of her children. I know the common arguments regarding treason and the problems of succession and can understand them. But, as a women, choosing who to bear our children is one of the most basic and fundamental decisions we make. For her to make this choice, in her role and in this society, took quite a bit of courage.

I do agree with you on that, to some level.

In the world of ASOIAF, a woman doesn’t have the liberty to choose her husband, especially someone as Cersei who is a pawn to be used by her family, or her father to say the truth…

Since she was forbidden the right to be with the person she would have wanted, the fact that she decided to choose who would be the father of her children is, in a way, her way to take control over her own destiny. It’s hard to accuse her of treason for that since she was not the one who took the decision to marry Robert Baratheon in the first place.

This situation can not be compared with the one of a woman in our days who would do the same thing, no one could say that Cersei was ever truly unfaithful to Robert since she never loved him and never really wanted to be with him in the first place.

[Maroucia]

When I think about it, Littlefinger and Tyrion have a lot in common…

Both pity themselves and believe that they were denied things that they deserved; Petyr because of his birth, Tyrion because the fact that he is a dwarf.

They both want to avenge themselves from the rest of the world and want to prove themselves to others.

Both don’t have any martial qualities and have to use their minds to get a place in the social establishment.

Both are bright men, but are blinded by their… lower brain…he…:lol: