From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa II

[1234567]

Cersei also seems to have stuck to her marriage vows until Robert's cheating got to much for her. As Tyrion says her mistake was not having at least one child by Robert. Jaime later wonders about his Aunt Genna's children and if they are really all her husband's and because she is in a more powerful position than him, no one is going to call her out on it. Women are limited by whom they are married to, but depending on their social status, they can circumvent societal expectations. Arienne Martell (despite the over sexualized portrayal) has choice in her lovers, as does Asha. Much of this comes from their status. Randa can also chose lovers without much worry.

Were Sansa to become Lady of Winterfell in her own right and married to someone from a lesser house, then there maybe very few to question if she chose to have a relationship outside of marriage. As Sansa Lannister it would be a death sentence to do so. Married to FAegon or Harry the Heir, any affair would be potentially ruinous or treasonous in FAegon's case. She would have to conduct an affair with incredible care.

However since the first book the story of the Dragon Knight and Queen Naerys has been part of her arc. This may foreshadow Sansa choosing the father of at least one of her children herself.

Sansa is learning how the game is played not just politically, but in the private sphere as well. She may have to play a part in an arranged relationship, but using the skills of the game, she can find some romance elsewhere.

[Elba the Intoner]

Queen Cersei, I really feel the need to respond to your post #52 as it's clear that my post ticked you off. I'm sorry for that as it was certainly not my intent. However, I'm not sure how else I should respond since you obviously misunderstood me. I agree with you that Jezebel's last act of defiance was a brave and strong willed move. I think she should be applauded for that. In fact, in my original post about Jezebel, volume one of this thread, post #359, I pointed out that this last defiant act has been used against her, wrongfully, throughout history. She was trying to go out like a queen and did so by dressing up and putting on make up and I think it is terrible that this has been turned around so that her name is now associated with promiscuity. Perhaps you should read that post before you post things like this:

Jezebel was overthrown by treachery. Her son was murdered—not honorably killed but murdered—by a man who had sworn to serve him. Jezebel then realized that she would be next, and that her death would likely be bloody and horrifying. Yet rather than fleeing or begging, she chose to put on her finest clothes, makeup, and go out like a queen. She then proceeded to cast scorn upon her murderer for his duplicity, and his choice to basically stab her son in the back to take his power. You note this as proof that she is unforgivable, a la Cersei. I’d say that this was her finest moments.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

No, I would say like you that it is one of her finest moments. And where did I ever say that her son was honorably killed? I never ever said anything of the sort and again, I guess all I can do is apologize that I was not more clear about my point.

That being said, Jezebel is not a saint that was never in the wrong. She did many things that did not endear her to the Israelites, which was what her husband was, she was not, and they were the people who she ruled. The trial of Naboth was the culmination of that, which is what led to the insurrection of Jehu in which her son was murdered - as you pointed out. Yes, he was murdered, in an insurrection, by people who wanted to get rid of her as ruler because she did things in total disregard for what they believed. That's where I see the parallels with Cersei and judging by Fire Eater's comments above I am not the only one. My point in the post above is that Cersei should not be judged and condemned for being sexual and neither should Jezebel. They should be judged on the actual things they did.

What's interesting is that in your latest post you say the very same thing:

On one hand we have the endless focus on Cersei's sexual deeds; the inordinate amount of time spent focusing on this while her truly evil deeds get shorter shrift.

I agree with you here and that was what I was trying to convey.

Maybe I oversimplified it too much because, as I pointed out in another post on vol. I of this thread, #387, there is a much larger historical context for her story which clearly involves a clash of cultures and religious beliefs, but both sides to the conflict did things wrong. You went into it in your post, but I did not get that detailed because I did not think it was relevant to the specific topic at hand. I'd actually be willing to discuss this some more with you or anyone else who is interested, if it could be done in a civil manner, but this is not the thread for that. If you want to PM me and have further discussion about this, please do. I would suggest starting a thread on this but I wouldn't want to give the anti Cersei trolls any encouragement to start spewing about how they hate her because of what a slut she is is.

ETA: As for what I said about Jezebel being known for using sex to control her husband and to get men to do what she wanted, I was speaking in general terms about how she is remembered in history. (Editing function was trouble today. Hope this works.)

[Valkyrja]

However since the first book the story of the Dragon Knight and Queen Naerys has been part of her arc. This may foreshadow Sansa choosing the father of at least one of her children herself. Sansa is learning how the game is played not just politically, but in the private sphere as well. She may have to play a part in an arranged relationship, but using the skills of the game, she can find some romance elsewhere.

The ironic thing is that finding romance outside of marriage is actually a huge part of the whole ideal of courtly love, an idea which, imo, is something that Sansa has always been enamoured with (the story of the Dragonknight), even though she didn't quite realize it before. Courtly love has been described as "a love at once illicit and morally elevating, passionate and disciplined, humiliating and exalting, human and transcendent" (from 'The Meaning of Courtly Love').

Even more fitting is that some have argued that this idea of courtly love was just a literary trope and not actually practiced in real life (ie, saying that such a thing is merely a romanticized ideal or 'just a song'). But it is possible that it was in fact a reality in many medieval courts, and may have been used to cover up affairs between unmarried members of the nobility. Also, the entire RL custom of crowning a Queen of Love and Beauty at tournaments may have been an expression of this practice.

I'm not sure if the highborn ladies and lords of Westeros (or at least those in the south) even consciously know about 'courtly love', but since GRRM chose to include the concept of the Queen of Love and Beauty, as well as the whole story of Lyanna and Rhaegar (all the 'smiles died' on that day when Rhaegar made his courtly 'love' for Lyanna known publicly at the expense of his own wife), then perhaps it is not so much of a stretch to bring it up here.

Either way, I find it interesting that just as Sansa is starting to reject the songs she used to love so much, she is actually now in a position where she could end up playing a part in such a song.....

[voodooqueen126]

The Cersei= Jezebel comparison fascinates me. Not least of all because here you seem to take the utterly black picture of Jezebel painted by her enemies as pure fact. (Which, for the record, numerous historians today do not.) In Kings, Jezebel is castigated for maintaining her cultural beliefs, “worshiping idols” and encouraging her husband to do the same, controlling her weak willed husband, and, overall being a strong willed, ambitious woman. Your noting of her murdering the some Israelite religious leaders is actually a far more minor issue; mentioned at one point in a throwaway comment “Jezebel was killing off the prophets of the Lord.” Yet for numerous people, Jezebel’s “worship of idols”, adherence to her own religious beliefs, desire for power, and unabashed political interferences is more than enough to make her the personification of evil. Here, you characterize her as the biblical version of Cersei Lannister. But looking at things from an alternate perspective, one could easily come to a completely different judgment of Jezebel. One could look at her and see a woman who, strong willed and independent, bravely adheres to her own deeply held beliefs rather than assimilating to those of her native land. A woman who, in a few cases, protects those of her own religion from violence and persecution. (Interestingly, Jezebel is criticized even more harshly for her acts of religious tolerance than for her acts of persecution. It is noted with great disapproval that Jezebel stepped in to protect worshippers of Baal from being put to death for their religious beliefs; this is clearly categorized as among her most heinous crimes.) And a woman who, whatever her faults, went out with undeniable style and courage. Your categorization of her as a horrible, inept ruler (a la Cersei) is also problematic. If one completely accepts that God really did stop it from raining and instigated a famine because of his wrath over Jezebel’s idol worship, then yes, it really is all Jezebel’s fault. However, plenty of modern historians, attempting to separate Jezebel’s actual personality from the religious agenda with which she is presented, have believed that she was actually a fairly competent ruler. Evidence that she inordinately punished/ persecuted/ murdered those of other religious faiths is not present. As I noted before, it is her religious tolerance and protection of those of her own faith, even more than her persecutions, that Jezebel is criticized for. Furthermore, many of the people she shows ruthlessness against really ARE her political enemies. When the saintly Elijah triumphed at mount Carmel, he had no problem with slaughtering 450 innocent prisoners, simply because they are of a different religion. (He specifically orders for not a single person to get away. But don’t worry—God approves.) In addition to Elijah being praised whilst performing far worse atrocities than Jezebel, the fact is that Jezebel's going after Elijah and similar prophets is not an action born of paranoia or cruelty. Jezebel doesn’t crazily think that Elijah is her enemy for no reason. Elijah brutally murders 450 people of Jezebel’s faith, simply for practicing their religion. Elijah is Jezebel’s enemy. The problematic issue is not the fact that a woman who is guilty less of evil than of pride, ambition, and willfulness has gone down in history as the synonym for female wickedness. It is that even today, there is a view of specifically female evil, that is colored by commonly held but incredibly subtle fears and prejudices that continue to permeate our society. A woman who is willing to use sex to get ahead, who lusts for power more than marriage/ family happiness, who is not afraid to go up against men to get what she wants, who is strong willed, proud, and unwilling to compromise—all these things are still traits that characterize countless stock female villains. And not males. And there is something wrong with that. Jezebel was overthrown by treachery. Her son was murdered—not honorably killed but murdered—by a man who had sworn to serve him. Jezebel then realized that she would be next, and that her death would likely be bloody and horrifying. Yet rather than fleeing or begging, she chose to put on her finest clothes, makeup, and go out like a queen. She then proceeded to cast scorn upon her murderer for his duplicity, and his choice to basically stab her son in the back to take his power. You note this as proof that she is unforgivable, a la Cersei. I’d say that this was her finest moments. Different strokes for different folks, I guess. The crucial difference is that Cersei was determined to take Sansa, an innocent child, with her if she went down. Jezebel was sacrificing no one but herself. Her son had been murdered, she knew she would die, so she decided to go out with pride and dignity. There is some Cersei in this, however, there are some wild differences between the situations. This is flatly false. I urge you to go back and read the book of Kings. Jezebel never “uses sex…to get men to do what she wanted.” This may be something you fear and consider evil in women. But this is simply untrue, if one bothers to read Jezebel’s story in the text itself. There is no evidence that Jezebel ever used sex to manipulate men. It is noted that she excersizes an inordinate amount of influence on her husband; but this is never connected to sex. Really? I find your statements here highly contradictory. First you claim that Cersei is hated for her cruelty, then the summation of why she is/ should be hated exemplifies all the ridiculous reasons people have for hating her. Why is Cersei’s pride or sex life relevant? Your connection of her with Jezebell is also interesting. "So, in essence the reasons to dislike Cersei are not because she behaves like a Jezebel, but because she behaves like the Jezebel." In fact, in the actual text of the bible, there is nothing to suggest any sexual deviance whatsoever on Jezebel’s part. She is loyal to her husband in marriage, and does not appear to have taken a lover after his death. Her using sex to get ahead is never once mentioned, ever. Yet she has gone down in history as a synonym for female promiscuity and harlotry. I can’t help but feel this shows how wideheld social prejudices and fears have a way of connecting themselves to popular mythology and archetypes. Even though Jezebell was not in the least promiscuous, she was an “unnatural”, power hungry, iron willed, and beautiful woman. Therefore, she must have been using sex to get ahead. The hussy.

True the original Jezebel was unlike Cersei, not a sexual deviant. The only person who calls her a harlot is Jehu, which I think was due more to standard insults than a reflection of her actual behaviour (although idolatry is often compared to adultery). I would be surprised if Jezebel had sex with more than one person in her whole life. Indeed the Talmud (which-since this is a religious text- would be the authoritative interpretation, rather than some sexually confused Greeks*) praises her good deeds, though it is highly critical of her behaviour- though at no point is her sexual behaviour criticised.

The problem with Jezebel is her idolatry, which frankly lead to all her other sins, since the idolatry of the Phoenician kings, alongside Baal worship, lead her to consider herself above the law, evinced by her her willingness to steal Naboth's vineyard.

Considering that in this context idolatry doesnt mean "engaging in deeply spiritual communion with an all loving feminist mother goddess" but actually means "worship practices that are actually abhorrent and should not be tolerated under any circumstances", Elijah's attitude towards Jezebel becomes much more comprehensible. Honestly, if 450 men from a country that you are usually at war with started preaching a religion that involved human sacrifice, temple prostitution and authoritarianism, I would be quite happy to watch them hang (especially if that religion had powerful backing from a corrupt leader and his or her foreign allies)

Now perhaps worshipping Baal, Ashoreth and believing the king to be god monarchs and therefore above the law is completely acceptable in Tyre, or Sidon or Baalbek (or really anywhere that isn't Israel I suppose), and if that means that you engage in human sacrifice, temple prostitution , and use the state to murder people in order to steal their property, then I suppose that's fine, if the Phoenicians were happy sacrificing their infants, catching VD and having their property stolen by their monarchs**.

But the moment Jezebel crossed into the Kingdom of Israel, she was bound to certain standards of behaviour, that placed her beneath, rather than above the law. Frankly the Israelites were entitled to a Queen who didn't practice a religion that was so utterly inimical to their own, I certainly can't see why they should allow her son to live, if their was even the slightest threat that he would succeed and bring back his mother's religion.

One might say that Jezebel was very brave and strong willled to adhere to her Baal worship, and I would never deny that this adherence to Baal worship is compatible with a love of power, since this gave Phoenician kings more power than monotheism gave Jewish monarchs(where the King is the servant of the people, rather than a semi-divine figure), but one must really ask if such a strong willed adherence to Baal worship is actually all that desirable.

As for whether she was a good monarch, since one of the most basic requirements of a monarch is that they enforce rule of law (and prevent civil war), unwillingness to enforce the rule of law makes someone a bad king or queen. As the incident with Naboth's vineyard illustrates, Jezebel failed at this most basic principle, so no matter how much trade the marital alliance she brought with her gave Israel, her unwillingness to adhere to the rule of law, automatically makes her a bad monarch.

Frankly although Jezebel seems to have had a charismatic personality, a degree of style (no one can deny that she died well) and a disregard for the rule of law, which is similar to Cersei, in her allegience to a religion that most of the population found abhorrent, (ie her idolatry, which is in many ways her defining characteristic and it arguably lead to her other sin, which was her willingness to ignore the rule of law) Jezebel actually has far more in common with Stannis than Cersei...

*The key to understanding the "Old Testament" is to ignore everything that comes from the early church fathers, since they were by and large sad men who were terrifed of and hated women and just use the Talmud, whose authors were a]normal married men rather than crazed mysoginistic hermits b] spoke the language and lived in the culture that produced the Tanakh, and therefore had a somewhat better understanding of the text that they were trying to interpret.

** Although human sacrifice had mostly died out by the time of Jesus, there are substantial arguments that the rapid spread and popularity of Christianity (especially amongst women) is due to the religion's strict moral teachings. Thus indicating that no, Phoenicians and other ancient people were not happy having immoral rulers and catching VD.

[Lummel]

The ironic thing is that finding romance outside of marriage is actually a huge part of the whole ideal of courtly love, an idea which, imo, is something that Sansa has always been enamoured with (the story of the Dragonknight), even though she didn't quite realize it before. Courtly love has been described as "a love at once illicit and morally elevating, passionate and disciplined, humiliating and exalting, human and transcendent" (from 'The Meaning of Courtly Love').

Yes our idea of romantic love as the purpose and driver of marriage is the newer one, Most of the marraiges we see in Westeros are family politics, I think that's where Septa Mordane's advise comes in. You aim to look for the best in your spouse and build a Catelyn and The Ned type relationship. Otherwise love is something on the side as with the already mentioned Genna Lannister and Lady Smallwood . Although courtly love wasn't neccessarily meant to be consumated.

Anyhow will Sansa have time for all that with only two books to go?

[Magjee]

Sansa has become quite a bit brighter in the later books, seeing through Littlefingers Ruse with Corbray.

At first she was a nit.

[Elba the Intoner]

Sansa has become quite a bit brighter in the later books, seeing through Littlefingers Ruse with Corbray. At first she was a nit.

Well, I would say that at first she was a naive little girl who had her head in the clouds. Now she has come down to reality and has had her eyes opened and is poised to realize her true potential. I also think it's no coincidence that she has come into her own intellectually at the same time as she is sexually.

[Winter's Knight]

Sansa has become quite a bit brighter in the later books, seeing through Littlefingers Ruse with Corbray. At first she was a nit.

Sansa was bright to begin with-she is noted as being an excellent student in all her subjects except arithmetic in AGoT.

[Valkyrja]

Anyhow will Sansa have time for all that with only two books to go?

I'm not certain that she will have time for some 'courtly luvin' ;) ......but it is an interesting possibility to consider. It really just depends on if/how LF's plan comes to fruition and how long she ends up remaining incognito in the Vale. Many assume she will be there for the duration of the series now, but personally, I am not so certain.

It is my hope that Sansa will be able to get out from under LF's control asap....but at this point who (other than GRRM) knows? :(

[brashcandy]

Sansa has become quite a bit brighter in the later books, seeing through Littlefingers Ruse with Corbray.

At first she was a nit.

Something I wrote about Sansa somewhere else. Reposting here because I see it's as relevant as ever:

This anti-AGOT Sansa sentiment always puzzles me as well. Yes, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and all that, but the Sansa of AGOT is freaking wonderful! Some of her best moments are in that book:

- showing compassion to the Hound

- being an awesome fangirl at the Hand’s tourney

- giving comfort to Jeyne

- going to plead for her father’s life

- standing up to Joffrey.

Yes, she makes some mistakes in judgement, and argues with her sister, but the fandom hatred that this inspires and her depiction as “bratty” and “snooty” are not warranted IMO. Sansa was very aware of class differences, but she isn’t a “mean girl.”

What’s truly disturbing to me is that I always hear people say they started to really like Sansa after the Joffrey abuse started. Like, oh, she’s a victim now, so we can finally like her, and see things from her point of view. If this is the case, then I think a lot of posters are missing out on what makes Sansa’s characterization so wonderful. She shouldn’t be punished and seen as lacking in admirable qualities (and intelligence) because she took a while to see the Lannisters for what they really were, and by contrast Arya shouldn’t be celebrated as good and wise for having disliked Joffrey and Cersei from the very beginning. The truth is that both of their judgements were informed by how they see themselves in relation to societal codes and gender norms. Sansa aspired to be the “good little lady” and as a result viewed the royal family as representing goodness and the epitome of excellence, whilst Arya could never see herself fitting into such a world, and therefore was already predisposed to resent the powers who enforced such normative values and class distinctions. Arya may have enjoyed a genuine friendship with Mycah, but I think a lot of it was an act of rebellion too, born of a stubborn attitude not to conform, not to perform the “expected” social functions. And yes, Sansa held the same stubborn views as well - the more Arya rebelled, the more she conformed. Both girls hold fast to their respective societal aspirations and identifications and both girls suffer for it. They each deserve our sympathy and understanding (not our disdain and dislike), from the beginning to the end.

[Lyanna Stark]

Yes our idea of romantic love as the purpose and driver of marriage is the newer one, Most of the marraiges we see in Westeros are family politics, I think that's where Septa Mordane's advise comes in. You aim to look for the best in your spouse and build a Catelyn and The Ned type relationship. Otherwise love is something on the side as with the already mentioned Genna Lannister and Lady Smallwood . Although courtly love wasn't neccessarily meant to be consumated.

Anyhow will Sansa have time for all that with only two books to go?

I think it will be three books, not two, to tie all the knots. :P Just a feeling.

The theme with Sansa's story arc has focused very strongly on crushing the romaticised and idealised version of love and arranged marriages to men of high rank. It's really become more and more about Sansa's autonomy and her ability to be the master of her own fate and destiny. Simultaneously, she is also being taught how to achieve this. First as an observer during the "crushing the dreams" stage, but as of AFFC also as a more active participant. As of the end of ADWD, she will be 14 years old, which means that if TWOW covers at least the time span of AFFC and ADWD, she will most likely be 16 and of age by the end of the series (and if TWOW turns out anything like AFFC/ADWD, it will end up as two volumes ;) ). There is also the possibility that the arrival of winter will slow the story down somewhat since movement will be slower in winter, hence give Sansa more time to grow up. Whether she'll have time for any sort of love or romance, I hope so, since that was how her story started, so it would bring her full circle and it will be interesting to see where that will be.

Anyways, given Sansa's story arc so far, the strong focus on autonomy for both Stark girls and the possibility of a minor lord in Winterfell, Sansa and Arya will be needed to sort out the political situation in the North. Anything else seems unlikely since they are both getting "suitable educations" for their future positions, whatever they will end up being. Since it seems not a given that Sansa's marriage to Tyrion will ever be voided, she may have to live with being an estranged wife, which means any chance at love/romance/family will have to be in a different format than the traditional. I've already theorised that one way she might consider is the usurp Tyrion like Cersei usurped Robert, or as she has associated a lot with bastards in the story, she may end up either staying a bastard herself, or at least choosing the father herself for at least one of her children outside her marriage, a la Queen Naerys/Aemon the Dragonknight.

I tend to agree with Queen Cersei I that it would be sad if Sansa had to completely switch off her affinity for love and romance since it was, and still is, an integral part of her character. To become someone who habitually uses sex to get ahead on the Game, she'd have to become extremely cynical and it would probably be damaging to her self esteem as well. Even though she's becoming far better at understanding and reading people, it's a long step away from being a completely cynical manipulator of people a la Littlefinger.

Regarding Sansa's future taks of becoming a seductress, or not:

Queen Cersei I said:

The idea that Sansa will use LF's feelings for her as a sort of Achilles heel to bring him down is certainly a popular one. However, i'm not entirely sure I want to see it play out that way.

People have already, on various threads in this forum, accused Sansa of stupidity or intellectual mediocrity. LF, meanwhile, is touted as a magnificent bastard, to the extent that his deeds like the murder of Dontos are praised. Rather than bringing him down through his weakness (related to love and sexual desire) I'd rather see Sansa defeat LF squarely on his own terms-- by outsmarting him. Such a result would be utterly satisfying for me, and would give some perspective to those who loathe Sansa for what they (mistakenly, imo) percieve to be her lack of intelligence.

I don't think the two are necessarily mutually exlusive. Knowing Littlefinger's weakness and using that against him is a clever move. This does not necessarily mean actually shagging LF either (ewwwh). One of the differences between how LF manipulates people and how Cersei goes about it is that LF suggests and infers things he knows people want to believe, and he doesn't have to actually say things outright. The " victims" fill in the blanks themselves, so to speak. He uses this approach with Nestor Royce, he did it with the Tyrells to get Loras to join the Kingsguard, and I am convinced he did it with Joffrey to get Ned beheaded too.

Cersei does not bother to find out what people like the Kettleblacks really wants, she assumes they want sex and barters with them accordingly (more on this later as I think it is an interesting example fo several reasons.)

Sansa would do better to adopt LF's own more subtle methods instead of going all out like Cersei. Doing so is even if involves a certain portion of playing on LF's feelings for her isn't stupid or "less" than only using a clever plot, since it can very well be a part in a clever plot. LF's desire for her is clearly a blind spot for him she could exploit. Of course, it also carries with it the danger of "going to far" which could be disastrous (and icky for the readers :stillsick: )

There is also the fact which I got the feeling Cersei experienced when doing "business" with the Kettleblacks that bartering sex is not a simple thing, and in the posted example,it really felt like the whole thing was getting out of cersei's hands. She wasn't in control and it looked to me as if she didn't so much corrupt the Kettleblacks as they exploited her situation and rank to get almost a "trophy shag" as it were. The whole thing actually made me feel sorry for Cersei since it didn't seem like a pleasant situation and she might have got more than she bargained for, and not in a good way. It also didn't sound as if she got much pleasure out of the whole ordeal, possibly with the youngest Kettleblack, but even that seemed more like a "meh" thing than a "wow" thing to me. She really wanted the old Jaime back, but when she couldn't get the man she thought of as her love, she had to settle for something far less interesting and really dull, almost demeaning. I actually find Cersei's sexlife far more sad than I find it demonised.

[brashcandy]

I don't think the two are necessarily mutually exlusive. Knowing Littlefinger's weakness and using that against him is a clever move. This does not necessarily mean actually shagging LF either (ewwwh). One of the differences between how LF manipulates people and how Cersei goes about it is that LF suggests and infers things he knows people want to believe, and he doesn't have to actually say things outright. The " victims" fill in the blanks themselves, so to speak. He uses this approach with Nestor Royce, he did it with the Tyrells to get Loras to join the Kingsguard, and I am convinced he did it with Joffrey to get Ned beheaded too.

Cersei does not bother to find out what people like the Kettleblacks really wants, she assumes they want sex and barters with them accordingly (more on this later as I think it is an interesting example fo several reasons.)

Sansa would do better to adopt LF's own more subtle methods instead of going all out like Cersei. Doing so is even if involves a certain portion of playing on LF's feelings for her isn't stupid or "less" than only using a clever plot, since it can very well be a part in a clever plot. LF's desire for her is clearly a blind spot for him she could exploit. Of course, it also carries with it the danger of "going to far" which could be disastrous (and icky for the readers :stillsick: )

There is also the fact which I got the feeling Cersei experienced when doing "business" with the Kettleblacks that bartering sex is not a simple thing, and in the posted example,it really felt like the whole thing was getting out of cersei's hands. She wasn't in control and it looked to me as if she didn't so much corrupt the Kettleblacks as they exploited her situation and rank to get almost a "trophy shag" as it were. The whole thing actually made me feel sorry for Cersei since it didn't seem like a pleasant situation and she might have got more than she bargained for, and not in a good way. It also didn't sound as if she got much pleasure out of the whole ordeal, possibly with the youngest Kettleblack, but even that seemed more like a "meh" thing than a "wow" thing to me. She really wanted the old Jaime back, but when she couldn't get the man she thought of as her love, she had to settle for something far less and dull.

Great post, Lyanna. We actually see Sansa already using this strategy - knowing what people want and using it to manipulate/control them or the situation - on both LF and Sweetrobin. In her first chapter of AFFC when she decides to lie to him and tell him what he wants to hear:

"I am Alayne, Father. Who else would I be?"

With Sweetrobin, she knows he desires to feel like a strong boy, who's coddled and flattered, so she makes sure to feed his fantasies of this:

"You look very strong this morning, my lord." He loved to be told how strong he was.

This example also relates to what you said about Cersei beginning to lose control of the situation with the Kettlebacks. We see how Sweetrobin keeps upping the ante for what Sansa had promised him if he behaved like a good boy - lemoncakes and stories - and she begins to get frustrated with him as she notes that he would never behave like that with LF. Then of course there's the infamous kiss. It's a fact that in a patriarchal world, men are normally going to fear other men more than they do women. So essentially, a woman's weapons and her deployment of them have to be a little different sometimes if she's going to be effective.

[Lummel]

Aye, Lyanna I agree with your reading of the Kettleblacks - that was my impression too, that the whole thing had got out of hand (why do I feel a double entendre coming on?). If anything it pointed more to Cersei's inexperience and clumsiness in that situation rather than to her being a suave seducer.

With regard to young Sansa, may I remind everyone that happy relationships in GRRM seem to happen off the page? I'm not sure I'd want to hold my breath hoping for the best.

This business of Sansa's intelligence is interesting. It seems to be that some readers adopt the Cersei/Joffrey judgement, but even looking at how quickly and appropriately she reacts in AGOT when coming south they meet Renly and Barristan or in ACOK when she saves Dontos she comes across as being quick witted to me :dunno: .

[Grail King]

For Sansa to win in the Game of LIFE, she needs:

Become more knowledgeable of life in general, more politically astute ( which as a whole is a Stark short coming ), a little grayer without removing herself from the good values instilled in her by family and teachers, beat people at their own game using her mind and intellect and not her body ( LF is the former Cersei the latter) with this in mind I want to reiterate she can't beat LF using the hairnet,it will just tie her and Tyrion more into the plot to kill Joffery letting the Tyrells off the hook, either she arranges a way for LF to explain himself to her where she seems to be alone but with Bronze Yonn Royce or someone else of unquestioned integrity listening, or she puts all the knowledge she's learned and manipulates Cobray or Mad Mouse someone friendly with LF to do him in keeping her hands clean.

[the Scorpion Knight]

or masking his death as a suicide

[Lyanna Stark]

or masking his death as a suicide

She could pin LF's death on a "known enemy" like Lyn Corbray as well. Or somehow arrange for LF to fall on his own by revealing his game plan to someone with enough clout to topple him, which would enable her to keep her hands clean, LF style, while also having someone else do the dirty work.

[Grail King]

She could pin LF's death on a "known enemy" like Lyn Corbray as well. Or somehow arrange for LF to fall on his own by revealing his game plan to someone with enough clout to topple him, which would enable her to keep her hands clean, LF style, while also having someone else do the dirty work.

Yes I said it in the last line.

[Grail King]

Oh hell, I wanted to post something funny or witty to mark my 1000^th post ^^^^^^

[Grail King]

or masking his death as a suicide

Is there anything in LF past that would account for a reason for him taking his life????

If that did happened how does Sansa exonerate herself?

I don't think she could write a letter saying Sansa is innocent because I think LF hand writing may be well known.

[Lord Martin Stark]

Re-read Sansa AFFC chapters yesterday. She is going to be a big time player i think. Use culdnt stand her but on the re-read I started liking her more