From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa II

[Queen Cersei I]


I hated Littlefinger's romantic manipulation of Lysa - not sexual, but still playing on her love for him and her neediness, even though I don't like Lysa at all.

LF’s manipulation of Lysa was very sexual. He fucked her solely to gain his own ends. He used sex to get what he wanted ever bit as Cersei did, only Cersei generally indicated to the guys she was using that she was using them; whilst LF convinced Lysa he was in it for love.

In a way LF is a far worse “seducer” than Cersei, and yet LF is rarely castigated for her sexual manipulation of Lysa on these boards, as Cersei is for her “wicked” sexual manipulations.

I have yet to hear anyone on these boards call LF a whore, while Cersei is called one frequently. Over and over again, so much that some language had to be officially banned.


 Maybe I would have more tolerance for the seducers in ASoIaF if, at least in the actions I described, they seduced under duress (Jeyne Westerling might have been ordered by her own mother to seduce Robb Stark, which brings the question of family loyalty and parental coercion into play) or out of desperation if their lives were endangered or to protect others (such as TV-Osha seducing Theon).

I’m sorry, but once again, this is somewhat funny to me. You seem to place “seducing” people as a crime right up there with rape or physical abuse—it’s okay if they “seduced under duress”, but not otherwise! Actually, far from being at all immoral or even amoral, TV Osha’s seduction of Theon strikes me as utterly moral and selfless. She was sacrificing her own body (in a way) to save others. Not committing a “crime” under duress, but doing a selfless good deed.


It's one thing to flirt; another to corrupt someone for one's own ends through sex.

Really? Because to me it seems as though there is no huge moral difference. ** In one scenario one is misleading using charm and sexual appeal, and manipulating another person that way. In the second scenario, one is using both charm and the promise of sex to influence people. Your idea that it’s A-Okay to use physical charm to exert power over others but going simply one step further and sleeping with them is morally unacceptable is interesting.

Also interesting is your claims here that you object to using sex to manipulate people vs. your claims elsewhere that Danerys showed incredible virtue and strength by learning to sexually please her husband, and that Cersei should have played it smart and done the same thing. I agree with you utterly that Dany shows great strength in adjusting to the Dorthraki lifestyle, and that making sex with Khal Drogo was one of the few options available to her. However, in an earlier thread you asserted that despite the fact that Robert had forced himself upon Cersei repeatedly, she should have sucked it up and followed Danerys example. You suggested that Cersei should try to make her situation more pleasant with Robert by endearing herself with him, giving him pleasant sex, and basically making him love her.

As you and a few others noted, Cersei was responsible for improving her own situation. (Rather than Robert, despite the fact that he forced himself upon her repeatedly.) However, it seems strange that it is A-Okay for a woman to use sexual favors to ingratiate themselves to a husband they didn’t choose, but to do so with various men of her own choosing is wicked and immoral. Honestly, this is a situation that seems to end up benefiting men quite a bit—women should use sexual favors/ charm/ flattery when in a marriage to “improve their situations” and earn their husbands love. But utilizing their sexual power and appeal for their own ends, with completely willing partners? Unacceptable!

However, flirting and teasing is moral and acceptable.

Interestingly, GRRM tends to portray women being given in marriage (more or less sold off) as utterly different from them wickedly making the independent decision to use sex to gain their ends on their own terms. However, I see some wild similarities between the two. Thus, I suspect Sansa may well be married off, and have to learn to play her cards right.

IMO, Sansa will never use sex to manipulate men, as Cersei does. GRRM clearly considers this evil and wrong; and every single example of it shown has had a didactic purpose. Cersei sleeping with men to get ahead is wicked, destructive, stupid, and slutty. Meanwhile, Arrianne Martell is portrayed comparatively positively, yet her sexual manipulations (which she believes she is doing to defend both her and Myrcella’s rights, and, in a way, striking against the patriarchy that, she notes, prevents women from inheriting) end in disaster. Daddy knew best all along and Arrianne should have known better and listened to and obeyed her patriarch. Her stupid sexual machinations actually ended up, as all such efforts do in these books, being overtly harmful for females—Myrcella is maimed and placed in great danger. Arrianne also nearly starts a war and leads to the death of her lover. Arrianne recognizing that using sex to get ahead is wrong and learning to obey her naturally wiser patriarch is proof that she is redeemable, and how she becomes far cleverer and good. Cersei’s inability to see that it’s evil/ wrong to use sex to get ahead is proof of her unforgivableness.

If Sansa ever uses sex as means to help herself or her cause, it will be with her husband, the man she's already been sold off to.

[Tumnas the Torpid]

... Arrianne Martell is portrayed comparatively positively, yet her sexual manipulations (which she believes she is doing to defend both her and Myrcella’s rights, and, in a way, striking against the patriarchy that, she notes, prevents women from inheriting) end in disaster. Daddy knew best all along and Arrianne should have known better and listened to and obeyed her patriarch. Her stupid sexual machinations actually ended up, as all such efforts do in these books, being overtly harmful for females—Myrcella is maimed and placed in great danger. Arrianne also nearly starts a war and leads to the death of her lover. Arrianne recognizing that using sex to get ahead is wrong and learning to obey her naturally wiser patriarch is proof that she is redeemable, and how she becomes far cleverer and good.

...

I agree with a lot of what you said, especially regarding Cersei. In addition to becoming increasingly irrational as the series has progressed, she has been placed in a number of humiliating situations as a result of her sexual activities - and I'm not sure if we're supposed to infer that she "deserves" it.

But I have a different take on Arriane. I'm not trying to suggest that your interpretation is not entirely valid. Arriane's seduction of Arys certainly blows up in her face, along with the rest of the plot to crown Myrcella, but, to me, it is clear that, ultimately, the fault is Prince Doran's.

Doran's problem is that he underestimates his daughter. First, there is the obvious condescension in his explanation for keeping Arriane in the dark about his scheming. He basically tells Arriane that she would never have been able to keep her mouth shut about his secret plan, so he had to keep her uninvolved and ignorant. Which, evidently, was the exact wrong move; it would seem that Arriane is not the sort of person to remain quietly uninvolved.

If Doran had known his own daughter better, he might have realized that she was bound to find out something. Because he did not, he never anticipated that the pieces of the puzzle she did find would make it appear as if her father intended to disinherit her - a decent motive for a drastic action. The Myrcella fiasco was, by my lights, a tragedy that could have been avoided entirely, if the elder Martell had respected his daughter more.

As to the eventual reconciliation and cooperation between the two, there is no denying that the simple chain of events can easily support a very pro-patriarchal view. But, to me, in light of the fact that Arriane's imprisonment is the result of a crisis of communication that Doran is responsible for, I don't see it that way. Once the misunderstandings between the two are cleared up, I see them presenting a united front because they want the same thing (Death! to the Lannisters). And, most importantly, I see Arriane's collaboration as essential to moving Doran's plans forward. It is she who delivers reconciliation with the Sand Snakes; without Arriane's involvement, Doran may never have been able to pass this domestic hurdle to his foreign policy.

For what it's worth, I see this situation as an echo of the whole "Sansa betrayed Ned" thing. People seem to forget that Ned had two daughters, but he only attempted to explain the danger they faced at King's Landing to one of them. When he told Sansa they were going back to Winterfell, she flipped out and ran off, which is reasonable, for a child - and he just let her go. I believe he had a thought somewhere along the lines of, "She just doesn't get it. I'll explain after we're safe on the ship." If he had tried to be as honest with Sansa as he was with Arya, I don't see Sansa running off to Cersei.

[brashcandy]

If Sansa ever uses sex as means to help herself or her cause, it will be with her husband, the man she's already been sold off to.

I don't know if Martin will repeat be very keen to repeat the same incident with Sansa twice :). If we look at what happens between her and Tyrion, she actually commits a pretty big "transgression" by refusing to give herself sexually to her husband. And if we put other considerations of her age and readiness aside, it was strictly based on lack of desire. I think Sansa (and some other characters) are meant to represent the change in oppressive sexual politics towards women, which might run the scale from not sacrificing oneself on the marriage bed, all the way to being a lot more skilled in using sex or "feminine wiles" (hate that term, honestly, but hey) as a bargaining tool.

[Raksha the Demon]

LF’s manipulation of Lysa was very sexual. He fucked her solely to gain his own ends. He used sex to get what he wanted ever bit as Cersei did, only Cersei generally indicated to the guys she was using that she was using them; whilst LF convinced Lysa he was in it for love. In a way LF is a far worse “seducer” than Cersei, and yet LF is rarely castigated for her sexual manipulation of Lysa on these boards, as Cersei is for her “wicked” sexual manipulations. I have yet to hear anyone on these boards call LF a whore, while Cersei is called one frequently. Over and over again, so much that some language had to be officially banned. I’m sorry, but once again, this is somewhat funny to me. You seem to place “seducing” people as a crime right up there with rape or physical abuse—it’s okay if they “seduced under duress”, but not otherwise! Actually, far from being at all immoral or even amoral, TV Osha’s seduction of Theon strikes me as utterly moral and selfless. She was sacrificing her own body (in a way) to save others. Not committing a “crime” under duress, but doing a selfless good deed. Really? Because to me it seems as though there is no huge moral difference. ** In one scenario one is misleading using charm and sexual appeal, and manipulating another person that way. In the second scenario, one is using both charm and the promise of sex to influence people. Your idea that it’s A-Okay to use physical charm to exert power over others but going simply one step further and sleeping with them is morally unacceptable is interesting. Also interesting is your claims here that you object to using sex to manipulate people vs. your claims elsewhere that Danerys showed incredible virtue and strength by learning to sexually please her husband, and that Cersei should have played it smart and done the same thing. I agree with you utterly that Dany shows great strength in adjusting to the Dorthraki lifestyle, and that making sex with Khal Drogo was one of the few options available to her. However, in an earlier thread you asserted that despite the fact that Robert had forced himself upon Cersei repeatedly, she should have sucked it up and followed Danerys example. You suggested that Cersei should try to make her situation more pleasant with Robert by endearing herself with him, giving him pleasant sex, and basically making him love her. As you and a few others noted, Cersei was responsible for improving her own situation. (Rather than Robert, despite the fact that he forced himself upon her repeatedly.) However, it seems strange that it is A-Okay for a woman to use sexual favors to ingratiate themselves to a husband they didn’t choose, but to do so with various men of her own choosing is wicked and immoral. Honestly, this is a situation that seems to end up benefiting men quite a bit—women should use sexual favors/ charm/ flattery when in a marriage to “improve their situations” and earn their husbands love. But utilizing their sexual power and appeal for their own ends, with completely willing partners? Unacceptable! However, flirting and teasing is moral and acceptable. Interestingly, GRRM tends to portray women being given in marriage (more or less sold off) as utterly different from them wickedly making the independent decision to use sex to gain their ends on their own terms. However, I see some wild similarities between the two. Thus, I suspect Sansa may well be married off, and have to learn to play her cards right. IMO, Sansa will never use sex to manipulate men, as Cersei does. GRRM clearly considers this evil and wrong; and every single example of it shown has had a didactic purpose. Cersei sleeping with men to get ahead is wicked, destructive, stupid, and slutty. Meanwhile, Arrianne Martell is portrayed comparatively positively, yet her sexual manipulations (which she believes she is doing to defend both her and Myrcella’s rights, and, in a way, striking against the patriarchy that, she notes, prevents women from inheriting) end in disaster. Daddy knew best all along and Arrianne should have known better and listened to and obeyed her patriarch. Her stupid sexual machinations actually ended up, as all such efforts do in these books, being overtly harmful for females—Myrcella is maimed and placed in great danger. Arrianne also nearly starts a war and leads to the death of her lover. Arrianne recognizing that using sex to get ahead is wrong and learning to obey her naturally wiser patriarch is proof that she is redeemable, and how she becomes far cleverer and good. Cersei’s inability to see that it’s evil/ wrong to use sex to get ahead is proof of her unforgivableness. If Sansa ever uses sex as means to help herself or her cause, it will be with her husband, the man she's already been sold off to.

I'm happy to call Littlefinger a whore, or a pimp, as well as an extremely despicable human being. I don't remember ever calling Cersei a whore.

If Cersei had wanted to have a sexual fling with Kettleblack or whoever, after Robert's death, or (since she didn't mind risking treason and a Lannister/Baratheon war if she was found out) while Robert was alive, I wouldn't object. What I object to is her using a sexual approach to enlisting someone in a criminal and/or illegal and/or immoral enterprise - ditto Arrianne and poor Arys. While Kettleblack is an adult (as opposed to Lancel, who was an inexperienced boy barely past or just approaching the legal age in Westeros), there is absolutely no evidence that he would have ever thought up the idea of seducing Margaery Tyrell in order to destroy her all by himself. Cersei sexually seduces Kettleblack to make him seduce a girl who not only has never harmed Cersei, but whose ruination could bring great harm to the Seven Kingdoms, including the reign and person of Cersei's supposedly beloved son. This isn't poor lonely Cersei wanting to mitigate her loneliness by having sex with a willing partner; this is Cersei enlisting a rather stupid and lustful man for a very nasty scheme and giving him sex as a payment for his participation.

Arriane was foolish to start up a rebellion against her father's authority and the rule of the Seven Kingdoms - I'd have thought the same thing if she was a young man. Arriane owed her allegiance to her father; he is her liege-lord, that is the system of governance in Dorne and Westeros; a system that has benefitted Arriane throughout her young life. She was impatient and youthfully arrogant; and decided that her father is a gouty old fool who is going to bypass her as heir and favor her younger brother - that's why she organized a would-be coup using Myrcella as a prize-pawn. (I believe that Henry II of England imprisoned at least one of his sons for rebelling against him, though not permanently). You can put a feminist spin on the situation, but I don't see any indication that Arianne is being persecuted because she's female; more like she's a Prince's heir who rebels against her father who is also her lord. And Arrianne suffers far less for her incompetence than do Myrcella and Arys.

Would Arrianne have had sex with Arys if he had not been the key to the exploitation of Myrcella? I doubt it. I would have no objection to her having a love affair with Arys, it might have been charming and interesting; but she didn't begin a sexual relationship with him (if I remember right, I don't have the book handy) because she wanted to have a relationship with Arys, she set out to seduce him to use Myrcella in a political coup. Arriane did not need to stage a coup against the Iron Throne and publicly embarrass her father in order to protect herself or protect Myrcella or anyone else; Arriane was just resentful of her father's treatment and wanting basically to become more influential.

I do think that Doran could have taken Arrianne into his confidence before she decided to flout his authority; to keep a 23-year-old heir in ignorance of that heir's future destiny or the lord's future plans for the realm might be unwise; but the fact remains that Doran had no obligation to inform Arriane of his plans, now null and void, to have married her to Viserys. Perhaps he was not sure whether he could trust Arriane not to tell any plans he told her, i.e. the secret agreement to marry Viserys, which exposes Doran's intention to eventully ally with the remaining Targaryens, to her friends, especially the even more impatient Sand Snakes.

As for your annoyance that Arriane should have listened to her father, Father knew best, etc.; well, who's the Lord of Dorne, an older man with experience of ruling, politics, and history, and who's the blundering, impatient heir? To me, Arriane's problem was not so much as her gender, but her impatience and lack of competence, her inability to play a longer game instead of arranging an ill-conceived and ill-starred coup. Arrianne got off easy; many lords would have imprisoned an heir for far longer after the heir flouted their authority and nearly wrecked their plans like that. I feel sorry for Ser Arys and Myrcella, but not Arriane; she's alive and unscarred and is still the heir of Dorne.

I'll also point out that Quentyn, who is male and is far more obedient to their father's will than is Arriane, also fails spectacularly in his solo endeavor. Outwardly obedient, he and Arriane share a certain flaw - a desire to be taken more seriously, to matter - Quentyn fears loss of face if he doesn't bring home a dragon, since he failed to win Daenerys' hand in marriage; so he embarks on a very rash and ill-considered plan to steal a dragon that not only does not belong to him, but could (and does) kill him and others. Arriane feels that her father does not value her enough, that he might set her aside for Quentyn; so she seduces Arys Oakheart into a morally ambivalent and dangerous gambit and gains access to the child princess Oakheart is sworn to protect and then brings danger, injury and death down upon them all. Arrianne comes out of it all chastened but alive; which is more than can be said for Quentyn.

TV-Osha seduced Theon to help Bran and Rickon and also, in my opinion, to give the viewers some skin; since in the novel she was quite capable of helping the kids without disrobing (for viewers or readers) and having sex with Theon.

[Grail King]

I'm going to point blank say, LF and Cersei are whores and pimps, they use people to get their desire, LF is more calculating and has patience, Cersei is rash and short sighted as to the results she gets.

As for TV Osha ( I tend to think Natelia Tenna a bit of a hottie ) purely to get Theon tired to get the boys to safety, she did what she knew Theon wanted and doing the guard was grand.

[brashcandy]

For what it's worth, I see this situation as an echo of the whole "Sansa betrayed Ned" thing. People seem to forget that Ned had two daughters, but he only attempted to explain the danger they faced at King's Landing to one of them. When he told Sansa they were going back to Winterfell, she flipped out and ran off, which is reasonable, for a child - and he just let her go. I believe he had a thought somewhere along the lines of, "She just doesn't get it. I'll explain after we're safe on the ship." If he had tried to be as honest with Sansa as he was with Arya, I don't see Sansa running off to Cersei.

Nice post. It's interesting how the patriarchs - Ned and Doran - collapse in the face of feminine desire, and then how that desire is portrayed as responsible for bringing ruin to the family. Arianne wanted badly to get married, even resorting to trying to run away to meet Willas Tyrell, but was repeatedly thwarted by Doran Martell, because now we know he had a "plan." A similar thing happens with Sansa as well, where she sees her father as wanting to deny what is hers by right, and of course, Ned failing utterly to respond to her desires once again, and only vaguely alluding to his "plan" to find her someone "brave, strong and gentle." As we've been saying all along, this portrayal of the "rebellious woman" with the aberrant/foolish desire which brings shame and disgrace to her family name is a constant theme throughout literature, and Martin can be accused of having represented it in his works time and again, with his portrayal of women like Sansa, Lysa, Cersei and Arianne. IMO, it's a portrayal that can lead to slut-shaming, and we as readers need to interrogate these problematic representations of female desire, not assassinate the characters of the women who "fail" to be good daughters and wives.

[Caro99]

So much good stuf to catch-up with (like 10 pages)! :eek: And many new names as well :D

Great AFFC analysis Raspie! Here are some of my thoughts about it:

when you mentioned how maybe sansa's life song will not be a happy one in the end- i hope that george means for at least some of the characters to get a slightly happier ending than the bittersweet general one he talked about. so maybe sansa's life song could mean that it wasn't always a happy one, but maybe in the end she did get it??

& i'm sure she can one day manage to be at ease with playing the game, i jsut hope she doesn't decides to make it her life like with varys or LF.

you mentioned how dead man (marmillion and sandor) may have some links to her. well, we also have half of westeros believing sansa is dead, so she is an un-dead girl? oh wait, that's her mother. so yeah, lots of undead personalities around her.

kittykatknits said how she's noticed people don't view sansa as a sexual person... well, she is quite young yet and has so far been saved from sleeping with men (maybe since tyrion didn't touch her cause she was so young others see her like that) but i can totally see a new sansa or alayne in the next book starting to mature in this regard. her sexual awakening began at the end of the third book and whether George wants her to lose her virginity out of wedlock or one day keep a paramour, people will think differently in the end... and about how you admire cersei for chosing who would be tehfather of her babies- i also think it took a lot of guts to do this, and if sansa decides to do this (i think it would be funny to have her staying married to tyrion only to have big dark hair and grey eyes babies tha tlook like the hound) i will support her.

lyanna, She's also already learnt something that Tyrion still hasn't really mastered, and that's keeping your true feelings hidden away. Tyrion has a tendency to mouth off and not shut his cakehole when he should (hence: framed for Joffrey's murder since his dislike was so well known).--- we can see that she even fooled tyrion during joff's wedding. she was clearly thinking about her upcoming escape, and yet tyrion doesn't see how nervous she is, cause she has already been forced to train herself to hide her emotions. it's sad she had to learn this to survive with joff around, but seeing as she had no tutor for this at first, excpet perhaps sandor, it's just great for her future arc.

Brash, you also wrote a great Sansa's development! it was so sad yet true when you pointed out how she no longer finds pleasure in songs, and i liked a lot the way you explained how sansa has unconsciously replaced loras for sandor. and regardign the question you ended the post with, i think she won't be forced yet again to play the game if she does't want to (sort of like what happened with her becoming a lannister hostage. she had no voice or power over that) but now, if she wants to escape the game or LF, i can see her planning her own escape, with help from mya or randa maybe, but she won't wait to be saved i think in the end the way she was doing at the beginning of ACoK.

& now about some things that have been discussed in this second thread.

Sand11571 i think was the one who said sansa was the ultimate survivor. i totally agree. hopefully i am not wrong but i have a strong belief sansa will be one main POV characters who are still alive by the end of the series. her survival instinct is great.

& about Cersei and Sansa: they sort of resemble each other at times. both wanted to be queens, but i see sansa wanting to be a queen so she could give her love and heart to her husband, th kingdom and her children. so she wanted it for some selfless motives; whereas i see a young little cersei wanting to be queen so she could have a crown and own rhaegar. and i can't really see a young cersei caring if her people would ever love her. so ever since their childhood we can see who was. Someone mentioned some time ago how they thought that cersei's younger queen prophecy was not something that he had planned all along, but rather came up with when writing cersei. who knows if this is true, but if it is, i would think it nice that George went ahead and wrote this cause he could really see a good future for sansa as a queen.

& finally, about sansa using sex as a tool to get ahead on the game.. i don't think she would do it for some reason. if she did it, regardless if her motives are way diffrent from the ones cersei or arianne had, i can't see her enjoying it the way they did. cersei likes having sex with te kettleblaccks cause she thinks it proves they prefer her to her daughter-in-law, among other reasons. i think arianne and margaery sort of enjoy torturing men with their flirtations, but i can't see sansa enjoying it. flirting yes, but not sex. i don't know if i am explaining myself all that well, but i think in the end she could start wondering if men not only want her for her body and claim, instead of for her true self and stuff... :dunno:

[Tumnas the Torpid]

Nice post. It's interesting how the patriarchs - Ned and Doran - collapse in the face of feminine desire, and then how that desire is portrayed as responsible for bringing ruin to the family. Arianne wanted badly to get married, even resorting to trying to run away to meet Willas Tyrell, but was repeatedly thwarted by Doran Martell, because now we know he had a "plan." A similar thing happens with Sansa as well, where she sees her father as wanting to deny what is hers by right, and of course, Ned failing utterly to respond to her desires once again, and only vaguely alluding to his "plan" to find her someone "brave, strong and gentle." As we've been saying all along, this portrayal of the "rebellious woman" with the aberrant/foolish desire which brings shame and disgrace to her family name is a constant theme throughout literature, and Martin can be accused of having represented it in his works time and again, with his portrayal of women like Sansa, Lysa, Cersei and Arianne. IMO, it's a portrayal that can lead to slut-shaming, and we as readers need to interrogate these problematic representations of female desire, not assassinate the characters of the women who "fail" to be good daughters and wives.

I was trying to say that I don't see his portrayals of Arriane and Sansa that way. In both cases, the supposed "betrayals" committed by the daughters, are, in fact, the direct result of their underestimation and marginalization at the hands of their fathers.

[brashcandy]

I was trying to say that I don't see his portrayals of Arriane and Sansa that way. In both cases, the supposed "betrayals" committed by the daughters, are, in fact, the direct result of their underestimation and marginalization at the hands of their fathers.

I know, I know :) I wasn't saying that you were, sorry. Was just expanding on my thoughts.

Honestly, I'm still a bit ticked off by Martin claiming that Sansa was in some way responsible for her father's demise back in AGOT.

[Valkyrja]

I know, I know :) I wasn't saying that you were, sorry. Was just expanding on my thoughts. Honestly, I'm still a bit ticked off by Martin claiming that Sansa was in some way responsible for her father's demise back in AGOT.

Wow, I didn't realize he said that.... that upsets me too! :(

[Grail King]

I was trying to say that I don't see his portrayals of Arriane and Sansa that way. In both cases, the supposed "betrayals" committed by the daughters, are, in fact, the direct result of their underestimation and marginalization at the hands of their fathers.

In regards to Ned, I think he hasn't realized Sansa has moved into the next stage of life, womanhood with all the hormonal changes that comes with it, hence Sansa's refute of the doll, she's still his little girl in his eyes, the results would have been different if Cat was there, his main failure was while at the table he didn't let Sansa in on how dangerous their situation was .

Doran problem was he's too secretive and didn't think he could trust his daughter because she was close to her cousins.

[Raksha the Demon]

In regards to Ned, I think he hasn't realized Sansa has moved into the next stage of life, womanhood with all the hormonal changes that comes with it, hence Sansa's refute of the doll, she's still his little girl in his eyes, the results would have been different if Cat was there, his main failure was while at the table he didn't let Sansa in on how dangerous their situation was . Doran problem was he's too secretive and didn't think he could trust his daughter because she was close to her cousins.

If I were Doran, I might not have trusted Arianne either; or I might have decided that she was almost ready to be trusted, and then she launches the Myrcella Coup and gets people killed, not to mention Myrcella herself maimed. Doran is the ruler, the prince, of Dorne; he does not have to divulge his plans to his daughter or son if he does not want to. I just don't see any evidence that Doran mistreated Arianne because of her gender.

Don't forget; Doran is an extremely cautious and patient man. Perhaps he was testing Arianne; who is his heir; to see if she has the qualities of caution and patience that he values, watching how she reacts to his apparent lack of interest in finding her a husband befitting her rank. If Arianne had reacted with patience instead of resorting to a botched political coup against the Iron Throne behind her father (who is also her liege-lord)'s back, he would have taken her into his confidence sooner.

Arianne's closeness with the Sand Snakes, who are anything but patient or restrained and don't seem particularly loyal to their Prince; might have worried her father; Doran might have feared she would have shared whatever information he gave her about marriage plans to Viserys with Obara or Nym or Tyene, or all three.

I can't remember if Ned bought the doll for Sansa in the book; but it was a lovely, seriocomic scene in the TV series - Ned is so hopeful and rather pleased with himself that he's gone to the trouble of finding the perfect doll for his little girl, a pretty doll that will make his little girl feel better; and Sansa, with the affronted dignity of adolescence, says haughtily that she hasn't played with dolls since she was eight! I felt bad for Ned, I really did. The scene did show that Ned loved Sansa and tried to help her, but really didn't know her as well as he knew Arya. TV-Sansa is not a little girl anymore; book-Sansa is a little girl but one who is trying to be a grown-up lady.

I see a very different dynamic between Doran/Arianne and Ned/Sansa. Doran and Arianne have serious issues about trust and the respect that a lord and his heir should have. Arianne is an adult; and might have displayed more patient instead of conceiving a political coup to force her father's hand, or embarrass him, or both; while Doran might have told Arianne a year or two earlier just why he kept her off the matrimony market. Sansa, on the other hand (book-Sansa, not TV-Sansa); was not Ned's heir, hence an extra incentive for him not to include her in his political plans; and she was a child, an eleven-year-old girl, not an adult. And Sansa had no idea that she providing Cersei with help for a political coup, or that her father was trying to instigate one; she just wanted to go to the only female authority figure, her mother-surrogate, available, to enlist help in persuading her father to let her marry the boy of her dreams rather than return home.

[Tumnas the Torpid]

If I were Doran, I might not have trusted Arianne either; or I might have decided that she was almost ready to be trusted, and then she launches the Myrcella Coup and gets people killed, not to mention Myrcella herself maimed.

The fact remains that Doran's mistrust of Arriane was an important cause of the entire situation, in that it created the central misunderstanding that prompted Arriane to defy her father: she believed that he intended to disinherit her. I, personally, believe this to be a justification for her attempted coup. If Doran had kept her in the loop, he could have prevented this situation.

Doran is the ruler, the prince, of Dorne; he does not have to divulge his plans to his daughter or son if he does not want to. I just don't see any evidence that Doran mistreated Arianne because of her gender.

The only reasoning he gave was that he could not trust her to keep secrets, which I found condescending. There is no way of knowing whether her gender came into his thought process.

Don't forget; Doran is an extremely cautious and patient man. Perhaps he was testing Arianne; who is his heir; to see if she has the qualities of caution and patience that he values, watching how she reacts to his apparent lack of interest in finding her a husband befitting her rank. If Arianne had reacted with patience instead of resorting to a botched political coup against the Iron Throne behind her father (who is also her liege-lord)'s back, he would have taken her into his confidence sooner.

I'm arguing that there would have been no coup if Doran had taken Arriane into his confidence sooner. And that, whether or not he is obligated to include her, he should have realized that she could have helped him. More on that below.

Arianne's closeness with the Sand Snakes, who are anything but patient or restrained and don't seem particularly loyal to their Prince; might have worried her father; Doran might have feared she would have shared whatever information he gave her about marriage plans to Viserys with Obara or Nym or Tyene, or all three.

Arianne's closeness with the Sand Snakes proves to be a virtue, not a demerit. At the beginning of Feast, Dorne is supposed to be a powder keg, whipped up into a frenzy by the daughters of Oberyn. This presents Doran with such a problem that he has to have them imprisoned. Now fast forward through Arianne's storyline, to the end of Feast. After her own imprisonment, Doran finally speaks with his daughter. Fast forward to Hotah's chapter in Dance, and we find father and daughter collaborating - and dining with the Snakes. Arianne has literally brought them to the table. A little later, and she convinces them to swear oaths to Doran, and serve him in his plot. Keep in mind that they still make a point of insulting the Prince, in dialogue throughout the chapter. The Snakes do not respect Doran, but they do respect Arianne. Without her, he could never have brought them in. If he had been working with her from the start (which I would argue he should have been anyway, because she is his heir, and any respectable prince/lord/king should take a personal role in preparing their heir), he may never have needed to imprison them in the first place.

I can't remember if Ned bought the doll for Sansa in the book; but it was a lovely, seriocomic scene in the TV series - Ned is so hopeful and rather pleased with himself that he's gone to the trouble of finding the perfect doll for his little girl, a pretty doll that will make his little girl feel better; and Sansa, with the affronted dignity of adolescence, says haughtily that she hasn't played with dolls since she was eight! I felt bad for Ned, I really did. The scene did show that Ned loved Sansa and tried to help her, but really didn't know her as well as he knew Arya. TV-Sansa is not a little girl anymore; book-Sansa is a little girl but one who is trying to be a grown-up lady. I see a very different dynamic between Doran/Arianne and Ned/Sansa. Doran and Arianne have serious issues about trust and the respect that a lord and his heir should have. Arianne is an adult; and might have displayed more patient instead of conceiving a political coup to force her father's hand, or embarrass him, or both; while Doran might have told Arianne a year or two earlier just why he kept her off the matrimony market. Sansa, on the other hand (book-Sansa, not TV-Sansa); was not Ned's heir, hence an extra incentive for him not to include her in his political plans; and she was a child, an eleven-year-old girl, not an adult. And Sansa had no idea that she providing Cersei with help for a political coup, or that her father was trying to instigate one; she just wanted to go to the only female authority figure, her mother-surrogate, available, to enlist help in persuading her father to let her marry the boy of her dreams rather than return home.

Yeah, I didn't mean to suggest that the situations were identical. The Doran/Arianne situation must have been festering for years. Ned and Sansa, on the other hand? Ned made a parenting choice that would have been perfectly reasonable, in any normal situation. He's got to pick his battles, after all. How's he supposed to know that it will be too late tomorrow? However, the fact remains that he let Arya have the truth, but not Sansa. And, really, Sansa should have been told not to trust the Queen.

[voodooqueen126]

Sexual manipulation is only a useful technique when it is employed against husbands (who have to have sex with their wives in order to get legitimate heirs who are related to whoever was important), but against underlings, who can get sex with prostitutes if they wanted to... it is not all that an effective means of control (since sex is widely available) and just brings about humiliation and mild psychological damage to the user.

[Grail King]

If I were Doran, I might not have trusted Arianne either; or I might have decided that she was almost ready to be trusted, and then she launches the Myrcella Coup and gets people killed, not to mention Myrcella herself maimed. Doran is the ruler, the prince, of Dorne; he does not have to divulge his plans to his daughter or son if he does not want to. I just don't see any evidence that Doran mistreated Arianne because of her gender. Don't forget; Doran is an extremely cautious and patient man. Perhaps he was testing Arianne; who is his heir; to see if she has the qualities of caution and patience that he values, watching how she reacts to his apparent lack of interest in finding her a husband befitting her rank. If Arianne had reacted with patience instead of resorting to a botched political coup against the Iron Throne behind her father (who is also her liege-lord)'s back, he would have taken her into his confidence sooner. Arianne's closeness with the Sand Snakes, who are anything but patient or restrained and don't seem particularly loyal to their Prince; might have worried her father; Doran might have feared she would have shared whatever information he gave her about marriage plans to Viserys with Obara or Nym or Tyene, or all three. I can't remember if Ned bought the doll for Sansa in the book; but it was a lovely, seriocomic scene in the TV series - Ned is so hopeful and rather pleased with himself that he's gone to the trouble of finding the perfect doll for his little girl, a pretty doll that will make his little girl feel better; and Sansa, with the affronted dignity of adolescence, says haughtily that she hasn't played with dolls since she was eight! I felt bad for Ned, I really did. The scene did show that Ned loved Sansa and tried to help her, but really didn't know her as well as he knew Arya. TV-Sansa is not a little girl anymore; book-Sansa is a little girl but one who is trying to be a grown-up lady. I see a very different dynamic between Doran/Arianne and Ned/Sansa. Doran and Arianne have serious issues about trust and the respect that a lord and his heir should have. Arianne is an adult; and might have displayed more patient instead of conceiving a political coup to force her father's hand, or embarrass him, or both; while Doran might have told Arianne a year or two earlier just why he kept her off the matrimony market. Sansa, on the other hand (book-Sansa, not TV-Sansa); was not Ned's heir, hence an extra incentive for him not to include her in his political plans; and she was a child, an eleven-year-old girl, not an adult. And Sansa had no idea that she providing Cersei with help for a political coup, or that her father was trying to instigate one; she just wanted to go to the only female authority figure, her mother-surrogate, available, to enlist help in persuading her father to let her marry the boy of her dreams rather than return home.

I'm in full agreement, Cat wasn't there and Septa would have told her to obey her father.

Also the words attributed to GRRM about Sansa basicly turning on her father, I never saw in the book, the only reference was when Cersei said she didn't know Ned's time line until Sansa came to her for help. Seemed odd he couldn't understand the hatred for Sansa if he did say she gave all the info to Cersei.

[Lyanna Stark]

With regard to young Sansa, may I remind everyone that happy relationships in GRRM seem to happen off the page? I'm not sure I'd want to hold my breath hoping for the best.

I'm not expecting 5 chapters detailing Sansa's marital bliss with the pefect ideal man, nor a happy ending where she rides off in the sunset with the same aforemented figment of imagination man. ;) Looking at the reality of the situation, any relationship Sansa will engage in will likely be fraught with complications and possible pitfalls, and most of them not even on a wholly personal level (although there is that, too), but on a political level. Whether she is free of Tyrion or not doesn't really matter that much in the end since if we assume the political situation post Winter, post Other invasion will be a little bit....complicated and volatile? Sansa will probably need to tread carefully in her choice of, or abstaining of, a political marriage (including staying in the one with Tyrion, either as "acting" wife or as an estranged wife).

A bittersweet ending doesn't necessarily mean that she can't find any sort of love or stability in her life. It may very well mean that it will take a form she does not find ideal, or that it comes in a form she didn't expect originally, for example an illicit affair, a marriage to someone "below her station", or even that she sticks to her Alayne Stone persona to retain a higher level of personal freedom than Sansa Stark ever would. None of these scenarios would have been something the Sansa Stark of AGOT would have found acceptable or anywhere near agreeable, but it may well be the best situation she can create for herself by the end of the novels. The important thing is that she will have to choose and create her own destiny, I think, whatever that may be. It seems that this is true for both Arya and Sansa, even though a lot of people still cling to some sort of idea that Sansa has to sacrifice herself for the Greater Good and marry politically, while Arya doesn't have to because she is a tomboy and it would make her unhappy. As if Sansa's happiness is any less reliant on being forced into a marriage for convenience.

This business of Sansa's intelligence is interesting. It seems to be that some readers adopt the Cersei/Joffrey judgement, but even looking at how quickly and appropriately she reacts in AGOT when coming south they meet Renly and Barristan or in ACOK when she saves Dontos she comes across as being quick witted to me :dunno: .

I agree. It never seemed to me as if Sansa was stupid. She was said to be a model student. If any complaint should be made, it's that the quality of her education may have been lacking, i.e. the Septa should not have taught her silly notions about chivalry and what not (if she indeed did), but as a student, Sansa certainly seems to be above average. None of the Stark children strike me as stupid. In fact, few of the POV characters are dumb. Brienne is a slow thinker, but not dumb. Dany misinterprets people, but that's mostly due to having bad teachers and due to her situation of having to make quick decisions. The only one who comes across as dumb as a brick of the POV characters is Victarion.

Cersei tends to be very arrogant and think all sorts of people dumb, including, but not limited to, Sansa and Willas Tyrell; two people who we have come to suspect is anything but. She also thinks Jaime is pretty stupid, even though he proves to the readers in his own POV chapters to be very perceptive, if not extremely well read. Even Tyrion sometimes suffers from an unecessary level of arrogance when it comes to estimating other people's intelligence or worth.

Littlefinger seems like a good judge of people's mental capacities (as horrible as he is as a human being) and he seems to rate Sansa highly enough.

[romantic]

For Sansa to win in the Game of LIFE, she needs:

either she arranges a way for LF to explain himself to her where she seems to be alone but with Bronze Yonn Royce or someone else of unquestioned integrity listening, or she puts all the knowledge she's learned and manipulates Cobray or Mad Mouse someone friendly with LF to do him in keeping her hands clean.

She could pin LF's death on a "known enemy" like Lyn Corbray as well. Or somehow arrange for LF to fall on his own by revealing his game plan to someone with enough clout to topple him, which would enable her to keep her hands clean, LF style, while also having someone else do the dirty work.

As Eddard Stark has said repeatedly that the man who decrees the sentence must wield the blade (or something like that), might Sansa think it dishonourable to keep her hands clean?

[SerMixalot]

LF’s manipulation of Lysa was very sexual. He fucked her solely to gain his own ends. He used sex to get what he wanted ever bit as Cersei did, only Cersei generally indicated to the guys she was using that she was using them; whilst LF convinced Lysa he was in it for love. In a way LF is a far worse “seducer” than Cersei, and yet LF is rarely castigated for her sexual manipulation of Lysa on these boards, as Cersei is for her “wicked” sexual manipulations. I have yet to hear anyone on these boards call LF a whore, while Cersei is called one frequently. Over and over again, so much that some language had to be officially banned. I’m sorry, but once again, this is somewhat funny to me. You seem to place “seducing” people as a crime right up there with rape or physical abuse—it’s okay if they “seduced under duress”, but not otherwise! Actually, far from being at all immoral or even amoral, TV Osha’s seduction of Theon strikes me as utterly moral and selfless. She was sacrificing her own body (in a way) to save others. Not committing a “crime” under duress, but doing a selfless good deed. Really? Because to me it seems as though there is no huge moral difference. ** In one scenario one is misleading using charm and sexual appeal, and manipulating another person that way. In the second scenario, one is using both charm and the promise of sex to influence people. Your idea that it’s A-Okay to use physical charm to exert power over others but going simply one step further and sleeping with them is morally unacceptable is interesting. Also interesting is your claims here that you object to using sex to manipulate people vs. your claims elsewhere that Danerys showed incredible virtue and strength by learning to sexually please her husband, and that Cersei should have played it smart and done the same thing. I agree with you utterly that Dany shows great strength in adjusting to the Dorthraki lifestyle, and that making sex with Khal Drogo was one of the few options available to her. However, in an earlier thread you asserted that despite the fact that Robert had forced himself upon Cersei repeatedly, she should have sucked it up and followed Danerys example. You suggested that Cersei should try to make her situation more pleasant with Robert by endearing herself with him, giving him pleasant sex, and basically making him love her. As you and a few others noted, Cersei was responsible for improving her own situation. (Rather than Robert, despite the fact that he forced himself upon her repeatedly.) However, it seems strange that it is A-Okay for a woman to use sexual favors to ingratiate themselves to a husband they didn’t choose, but to do so with various men of her own choosing is wicked and immoral. Honestly, this is a situation that seems to end up benefiting men quite a bit—women should use sexual favors/ charm/ flattery when in a marriage to “improve their situations” and earn their husbands love. But utilizing their sexual power and appeal for their own ends, with completely willing partners? Unacceptable! However, flirting and teasing is moral and acceptable. Interestingly, GRRM tends to portray women being given in marriage (more or less sold off) as utterly different from them wickedly making the independent decision to use sex to gain their ends on their own terms. However, I see some wild similarities between the two. Thus, I suspect Sansa may well be married off, and have to learn to play her cards right. IMO, Sansa will never use sex to manipulate men, as Cersei does. GRRM clearly considers this evil and wrong; and every single example of it shown has had a didactic purpose. Cersei sleeping with men to get ahead is wicked, destructive, stupid, and slutty. Meanwhile, Arrianne Martell is portrayed comparatively positively, yet her sexual manipulations (which she believes she is doing to defend both her and Myrcella’s rights, and, in a way, striking against the patriarchy that, she notes, prevents women from inheriting) end in disaster. Daddy knew best all along and Arrianne should have known better and listened to and obeyed her patriarch. Her stupid sexual machinations actually ended up, as all such efforts do in these books, being overtly harmful for females—Myrcella is maimed and placed in great danger. Arrianne also nearly starts a war and leads to the death of her lover. Arrianne recognizing that using sex to get ahead is wrong and learning to obey her naturally wiser patriarch is proof that she is redeemable, and how she becomes far cleverer and good. Cersei’s inability to see that it’s evil/ wrong to use sex to get ahead is proof of her unforgivableness. If Sansa ever uses sex as means to help herself or her cause, it will be with her husband, the man she's already been sold off to.

I do want to point out that the Kingsguard lost his life as a result of that sex. So GRRM is also showing that betraying ones vows like that also has a price.

[Elba the Intoner]

I'm happy to call Littlefinger a whore, or a pimp, as well as an extremely despicable human being. I don't remember ever calling Cersei a whore. If Cersei had wanted to have a sexual fling with Kettleblack or whoever, after Robert's death, or (since she didn't mind risking treason and a Lannister/Baratheon war if she was found out) while Robert was alive, I wouldn't object. What I object to is her using a sexual approach to enlisting someone in a criminal and/or illegal and/or immoral enterprise - ditto Arrianne and poor Arys. While Kettleblack is an adult (as opposed to Lancel, who was an inexperienced boy barely past or just approaching the legal age in Westeros), there is absolutely no evidence that he would have ever thought up the idea of seducing Margaery Tyrell in order to destroy her all by himself. Cersei sexually seduces Kettleblack to make him seduce a girl who not only has never harmed Cersei, but whose ruination could bring great harm to the Seven Kingdoms, including the reign and person of Cersei's supposedly beloved son. This isn't poor lonely Cersei wanting to mitigate her loneliness by having sex with a willing partner; this is Cersei enlisting a rather stupid and lustful man for a very nasty scheme and giving him sex as a payment for his participation. Arriane was foolish to start up a rebellion against her father's authority and the rule of the Seven Kingdoms - I'd have thought the same thing if she was a young man. Arriane owed her allegiance to her father; he is her liege-lord, that is the system of governance in Dorne and Westeros; a system that has benefitted Arriane throughout her young life. She was impatient and youthfully arrogant; and decided that her father is a gouty old fool who is going to bypass her as heir and favor her younger brother - that's why she organized a would-be coup using Myrcella as a prize-pawn. (I believe that Henry II of England imprisoned at least one of his sons for rebelling against him, though not permanently). You can put a feminist spin on the situation, but I don't see any indication that Arianne is being persecuted because she's female; more like she's a Prince's heir who rebels against her father who is also her lord. And Arrianne suffers far less for her incompetence than do Myrcella and Arys. ]

Not to mention that the plan with Kettleblack then involved him going to the wall for a few years where he was then supposed to murder Jon.

As for Arianne, she could also have done the reasonable thing and gone and confronted her father about what his plans were, once she discovered evidence that seemed to suggest that he was looking to supplant her for Quentyn, but she didn't. Oh well, I guess then she would not have had as much of a story.

[Raksha the Demon]

I do want to point out that the Kingsguard lost his life as a result of that sex. So GRRM is also showing that betraying ones vows like that also has a price.

Playing devil's advocate here - Ser Arys didn't lose his life as a result of breaking his oath of celibacy and having sex with a hot Dornish princess. He lost his life because he gave his charge, Princess Myrcella, into the custody of said hot Dornish princess; and the princess' father, the ruler of Dorne and the man who was Myrcella's de facto guardian at the time, sent troops after them to stop Arianne's rebellion. Poor Arys Oakheart could have continued to love Arianne romantically and sexually without repercussions if he was discreet (or possibly even if he was indiscreet, in Dorne; I doubt the Dornish would have cared about a Kingsguard breaking the celibacy vows), but she wanted his participation in her would-be coup as well as his love.

You do have a point that GRRM shows that oathbreaking has consequences. We all know what happened to Robb for breaking the promise of marrying the Frey girl. Jaime has been reviled for killing the king he was sworn to protect. It can be said that Arys failed at his duty to safeguard Myrcella, who he was sworn to protect, by letting Arriane use the child in a failed rebellion; and poor Arys, rather than Arriane, paid with his life; while the utterly innocent Myrcella was attacked and maimed/scarred.