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From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa II


brashcandy

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Oh no, greensleeves. I know you didn't mean any offence. I mean, it's definitely worth a topic of its own, if someone is so inclined. My point was just that this question was naturally borne out of the discussion on Sansa and it still has relevance to her arc. Ultimately, these are going to be questions we continue to grapple with when we look at any female character, so I don't consider it a thread derail, especially since we've completed the re-read and our discussions will necessarily become much broader.

:) Maybe when I've got more time I'll start one if no one else has. Thanks!

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@Rapsie,

GRRM does apparently stay away from Internet forums, I am guessing partly because it would take a lot of time, but also that it may unduly influence him. Will post more later, but am reading this on the phone while having wine on the balcony and I can't type properly on this thing! :lol:

I wish to be where that wine is, and yahoo soccer girl is back! :)

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Good points and you are right about LF. To take it further, we have multiple instances of women trying to seduce but the men being strong enough to resist. There is Ned with Cersei in GOT, later Davos resists Melisandre's offer, and Jaime turns down Cersei when she comes to him a couple of times. I am trying, and failing, to think of any times where there is the reverse. Maybe someone else can think of one?

jorah attempted to seduce dany and was rebuffed

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...While AGOT was not GRRM's first work, it does appear to be his first major work (in terms of a novel) in a setting that he himself has created and a genre that has some pretty established tropes. GRRM is on record as saying he is trying to create a medieval world where the characters display medieval values which contrasts with many other fantasy novels which are essentially modern day characters in medieval dress. This works better in some places in his work than others and whether it is the characterisation or the varying values throughout the series that cause some of the problems is debatable.

As modern readers, characters like Jon, Arya and Tyrion appeal to us (especially in the first book) as they are the ones who are treated unfairly or share the most sentiments that modern readers can relate to. For a work that is meant to have a medieval mindset, these three characters all display remarkably modern viewpoints at times throughout the series. Sansa on the other hand is a product of her time and background. She is one of the most realistically written characters in the series, but I am not sure GRRM actually knew how to portray a love-struck and naïve teen in the first book, so her characterisation is a tad messy.

Now there is also a general stereotype about people who read fantasy books: namely that they are male, probably have difficulties dating women and invariably have a shit time at high school. While this is a ridiculously over the top assumption, there do seem to be a number of posters who equate Sansa to that mean girl that went to school with, or that girl at high school who would never date them etc. Meanwhile Arya, Tyrion and Jon, maybe the people they visualise themselves being like: essentially cool, but misunderstood. Hang-ups going back to high school can last a lifetime...

Just going off from that at an angle, considering the genre and considering what is generally believed about the readership, Davos, Catelyn and especially Sansa seem exceptionally striking characters. The first two have this realistic foreboding that things aren't going well and aren't going to go well from the start and all three just suffer their way through the narrative, enduring punishments with bizarrely untypical narrative achievements (Davos learns to read! Hurrah!). They are primarily called upon to bear witness and to be aware of loss and suffering. There's a subtly required to present characters like that, which isn't required for traditional, if quirky, male leads like Tyrion and Jon.

The downside of this is that they get pushed about a lot in the story, required to do things because they have to rather than being active and self-directing. In short, they aren't the stuff that traditional heroes are made from. I wonder whether Catelyn and Sansa are in part criticised because some readers feel that characters like them are a contradiction in terms in the genre absolutely non-heroic in a genre dedicated to heroes and linked to that that reading them and appreciating them requires empathy, and more to the point, being prepared to admit to it on a forum! So much easier just to blame them instead perhaps?

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Bottom line, I think Martin was trying to create Sansa as a typical young girl. I just don't think he did a very good job of it. My observation is that many readers take their initial impression of her from GOT and don't change it despite a very profound and complex story arc. Sansa is aware of class differences in GOT but that comes across as her being shallow when rather it shows that she has an understanding of class differences and social boundaries. Her sister Arya does not display this same knowledge at all. She is vilified for killing her father by talking to Cersei yet it is rarely acknowledged that this was a very feminist act for a girl her age in that world.

One problem Sansa's arc suffers from is that it's designed to present her as if not unpleasant, so at least a character you want to give a good shake since she's got such a really wrongheaded view of the world in AGOT (mostly contrasted to Arya who is a far more modern character, so the dichotomy is much stronger than is really needed). It's painfully obvious to the reader that Sansa just doesn't understand a lot of things around her, and that she airbrushes things to make them fit her preconceived notions. Later on when we get more information, we get to see the strength of her character, how she's forced to grow up etc. our view of her changes and we come to sympathise with her. This is used with Jaime, Sandor and to a lesser degree Melisandre, Stannis and Theon, too. Jaime especially starts out as the worst sort of villain, but as of AFFC he's seen by many as a really good person, despite his eariler horrible deeds. Sansa on the contrary has not done anything particularly horrible, but since she's done few dramatic things in general and because her development is more subtle, people miss out on why they're supposed to sympathise with her. (I rather like characters presented as unsympathetic and we later come around to rooting for them. Perhaps I am just weak in spirit or something, but I like having my preconceived notions challenged. I'm feeling a Stannis conversion coming on for me. :P )

Some of this could probably be put at the feet of the writer, but a lot of it is also the fault of the readers, who seem woefully inept at reading Sansa's chapters. The same readers also often fail at reading Cat's and Cersei's chapters, probably for reasons mentioned above that they are not typical characters in heroic fantasy. In fact, they are atypical characters, they're traditionally feminine, non-hero characters who do not get to do anything dramatically heroic.

The second is an interview he did fairly recently where he dismissed many of the claims that there could be gender bias within his work by stating that many of his readers where women. I can understand his unwillingness to engage in a dialogue at that point but his statement also showed he did not even feel a need to consider differing points of view. After both of these, I've begun to read ASOIAF with a much more critical view on how women are treated and portrayed in the narrative.

To be fair, what he said, if it's the interview I am thinking about, is that he is gratified that so many female readers like his female characters, as that gives him a feeling that he has succeeded in writing believable, well rounded female characters. He did also mention that he is aware of being a product of his time and his culture, and that he knows he cannot avoid pitfalls completely.

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Yeah, this really isn't about expecting Martin to be the perfect writer when it comes to how he represents gender and female sexuality. He's still done an admirable job I believe in handling Sansa's characterisation in later books; it's just that there's very little problematising of Arya's perspective in AGOT, which leads to readers seeing her as "right" and Sansa as "wrong."

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it's just that there's very little problematising of Arya's perspective in AGOT, which leads to readers seeing her as "right" and Sansa as "wrong."

I think it's a shame they repeated this in the show. I also think Sophie Turner is a better actress than Maisie, which has so far proved to be an unpopular opinion :laugh:

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Brienne in Renly's camp - but this is only reported we don't see it.

Cat and Littlefinger?

Oooh... Jorah and Dany!

Edit: Didn't one of the Kettlebacks try to seduce Margery?

Asha and Theon? ;)

More seriously, Asha and Tristifer Botley.

Sansa and that singer? Does it count that they were interrupted?

I knew someone else would think of some examples. But, Jorah/Dany and Cat/LF were about love rather than seduction for the sake of ulterior motives. But, I agree with the rest.

Asha and Theon? :)

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For example GRRM uses the unreliable narrator technique, but too often it seems as if certain character's viewpoints are taken as gospel. When they do think or do unfair things, it is either not commented on or excused. Because people didn't like Sansa's dreamy outlook and the fact she didn't immediately support in the Arya /Joff fight, people have called her a traitor to her family. Very rarely are Arya’s actions in that incident called into question. If Arya hadn't acted the way she did and instead let Sansa talk to Joff (as she was attempting to do) then Mycah would not have been killed.

The same can be said of the time that Tyrion and Sansa are married in KL. The time between their wedding night and the purple wedding are all from Tyrion's POV. As a result, the reader sees Sansa's actions and their interpretation only through Tyrion's eyes. He's a very popular character and one whose POV tends to be taken as gospel, which leads many to use him, incorrectly so, to inform their thoughts regarding Sansa. However, with previous understanding of Sansa's character, we know that she is using her courtesy armor as a weapon against him while waiting for her chance to escape.

It is not just feminine desire, but women who are feminine that seem to come under criticism. For instance in Jon's first chapter in AGOT this is how he describes Myrcella, who like Sansa is very much a feminine character.

Now from later in the story we know that not only is Myrcella not stupid but she is also incredibly brave, but it does show a certain attitude from the view of popular characters, which fandom often takes on board.

Also their femininity is often seen as false. In Arya's first chapter she notes

<snip>

Fandom gives male characters and female characters who reject feminine traits in favour of masculine ones far less harshly than the very feminine female characters. Doran for example is an idiot. The situation that arose with both Quentyn and Arienne was entirely his fault due to the way he raised both of them. Cersei faces condemnation from Fandom mainly for her sexuality rather than having people tortured to death. LF on the other hand is rarely called out on seducing Lysa and manipulating her for years.

In another thread, I suggested that a disproportionate of fandom condemnation is directed towards the female characters who least match the warrior princess trope common in science fiction and fantasy. You provide some really great examples of what I'm referring too.

As for Doran, he was an idiot. It was Arienne who was able to get the sand snakes to listen and agree to work with Doran. I never understood why he felt the need to keep his plans from her.

I don't agree. Martin is an author that adores subtelty and is very deliberate about it. These characters aren't real people; everything they are, including their best qualities, comes from him. He also loves nuanced characters. I think Sansa and Cersei are both very deliberate examples of this. Martin has stated that he reads texts carefully while looking for subtle clues and he writes for people who read the same way.

I'm not sure that a wider discussion of Martin's portrayal of gender dynamics belongs here. Maybe you should start a new thread to grind that ax?

I agree that Martin adores subtelty and I've stated numerous times on other threads that he has stated the works are meant to be read and re-read. I also would not dispute that he loves nuanced characters. However, whether that is the case or not, there are several arguments to be made that the way some POVs are written influence how particular characters are perceived. Rapsie did a great analysis earlier that shows exactly what I'm referring too.

I think some discussion of Martin's portrayal of gender dynamics is relevant to the discussion of Sansa's character especially as there is so much dissension and misunderstanding about her character within the broader ASOIAF fan base, much of which is focused on gender based traits and characteristics.

I've thought about starting a thread to talk about just this topic but I am both lazy and a chicken. Perhaps some day....

The downside of this is that they get pushed about a lot in the story, required to do things because they have to rather than being active and self-directing. In short, they aren't the stuff that traditional heroes are made from. I wonder whether Catelyn and Sansa are in part criticised because some readers feel that characters like them are a contradiction in terms in the genre absolutely non-heroic in a genre dedicated to heroes and linked to that that reading them and appreciating them requires empathy, and more to the point, being prepared to admit to it on a forum! So much easier just to blame them instead perhaps?

I ended up having a discussion with my husband about this topic after first seeing brashcandy's questions. He ended up saying, almost word for word, your thoughts refelcted here. I believe you both may very well have a point. Neither are characters found in traditional fantasy and it could be that many readers don't know how to respond or reach to them.

Yeah, this really isn't about expecting Martin to be the perfect writer when it comes to how he represents gender and female sexuality. He's still done an admirable job I believe in handling Sansa's characterisation in later books; it's just that there's very little problematising of Arya's perspective in AGOT, which leads to readers seeing her as "right" and Sansa as "wrong."

I don't expect Martin to be a perfect writer on either issue really. On the whole, I actually think he has done an amazing job creating such a wide variety of female characters and, for the most part, his characterization has been really well done with all of them. I would say this is especially so for Sansa in the later books. The issue for me, and I think others, is that the fan base seems to react in a disproportionate way to certain female characters and I struggle to understand why. This is what leads me to analyze Martin's writing and his motivations specifically.

One problem Sansa's arc suffers from is that it's designed to present her as if not unpleasant, so at least a character you want to give a good shake since she's got such a really wrongheaded view of the world in AGOT (mostly contrasted to Arya who is a far more modern character, so the dichotomy is much stronger than is really needed). It's painfully obvious to the reader that Sansa just doesn't understand a lot of things around her, and that she airbrushes things to make them fit her preconceived notions. Later on when we get more information, we get to see the strength of her character, how she's forced to grow up etc. our view of her changes and we come to sympathise with her. This is used with Jaime, Sandor and to a lesser degree Melisandre, Stannis and Theon, too. Jaime especially starts out as the worst sort of villain, but as of AFFC he's seen by many as a really good person, despite his eariler horrible deeds. Sansa on the contrary has not done anything particularly horrible, but since she's done few dramatic things in general and because her development is more subtle, people miss out on why they're supposed to sympathise with her. (I rather like characters presented as unsympathetic and we later come around to rooting for them. Perhaps I am just weak in spirit or something, but I like having my preconceived notions challenged. I'm feeling a Stannis conversion coming on for me. :P )

I see many readers call Sansa stupid. I think it is more accurate to state that she is lacking information so tends to interpret things incorrectly because of it.

With the exception of Jon, all of my favorite characters are those that start out as "bad" but who force me to change my mind about them as I learn more about their character. Stannis, Sandor, Jaime, Sansa..... Oddlly, I find my self liking, or at least enjoying their chapters less, those who start out as more likeable in the beginning - Tyrion, Arya, Dany.

Some of this could probably be put at the feet of the writer, but a lot of it is also the fault of the readers, who seem woefully inept at reading Sansa's chapters. The same readers also often fail at reading Cat's and Cersei's chapters, probably for reasons mentioned above that they are not typical characters in heroic fantasy. In fact, they are atypical characters, they're traditionally feminine, non-hero characters who do not get to do anything dramatically heroic.

:agree:

To be fair, what he said, if it's the interview I am thinking about, is that he is gratified that so many female readers like his female characters, as that gives him a feeling that he has succeeded in writing believable, well rounded female characters. He did also mention that he is aware of being a product of his time and his culture, and that he knows he cannot avoid pitfalls completely.

I think it is the same interview. He made his comment about being aware of his time and culture in his answer first. He then made the statement that many female readers enjoy his work. The way he worded this statement left me with the impression that he was dismissing the concerns of some critics. That's what I was referring too. I'm very willing to change my mind on this if he ever talks about it further. Actually, now that I think about it, I'd love to read an interview with him talking about female sexuality and gender roles within the books.

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Brashcandy said:

Nice post. It's interesting how the patriarchs - Ned and Doran - collapse in the face of feminine desire, and then how that desire is portrayed as responsible for bringing ruin to the family. Arianne wanted badly to get married, even resorting to trying to run away to meet Willas Tyrell, but was repeatedly thwarted by Doran Martell, because now we know he had a "plan." A similar thing happens with Sansa as well, where she sees her father as wanting to deny what is hers by right, and of course, Ned failing utterly to respond to her desires once again, and only vaguely alluding to his "plan" to find her someone "brave, strong and gentle." As we've been saying all along, this portrayal of the "rebellious woman" with the aberrant/foolish desire which brings shame and disgrace to her family name is a constant theme throughout literature, and Martin can be accused of having represented it in his works time and again, with his portrayal of women like Sansa, Lysa, Cersei and Arianne. IMO, it's a portrayal that can lead to slut-shaming, and we as readers need to interrogate these problematic representations of female desire, not assassinate the characters of the women who "fail" to be good daughters and wives.

Yes, I agree this is very much so. And despite the admiration here (which I agree with) for the wonder women of Westeros—Asha, Arya, Arrianne, the Sandsnakes et. Al.—there is one essential issue that should be noted with all these positively portrayed women. All of the strong women—who have sex, fight, and are generally self sufficient—nevertheless do so with the approval and support of their father/ designated patriarch. They take sexual and professional freedoms not common elsewhere; but doing so is never against the will of their patriarch, whom they inevitably follow and obey. For instance, the Sandsnakes all take sexual freedom and fight, but do so with the express approval (and encouragement) of their father. They are also utterly loyal and obedient to him; and transfer this loyalty to Doran after Oberyn the Patriarch’s death. (This is shown as a positive and redemptive moment for the sandsnakes in ADWD; when they pledge unquestioning loyalty to Doran and submit to do his bidding, they are shown to be basically good, smart, positive women despite their vengefulness.)

Similarly, Asha is the consummate independent woman. She takes whichever lovers she pleases, works for herself, fights. A regular 21rst century liberated feminist. But look closer, and the fact is that Asha is clearly allowed these rights by her father, whom she obeys and follows as long as he is alive. She is loyal to him, does his will, and thus, with her weak willed and hostaged little brother, gets named his heir. She basically takes on the role of the male child, an all the privileges. But she never, ever complains (even in her head) about the unfair treatment of women in her society, even when the Reader out and out tells her that she won’t be elected leader at the kings moot because she is a woman.Most significantly, she is utterly loyal to her father while she lives.

(Note—I do not note this fact—that all of the sexually and physically liberated women in these books are all submissive and obedient to their patriarch—to degrade or insult Asha, the Sandsnakes, or other women in Westeros who have done admirable or amazing things. I am simply trying to point out the fact that GRRM’s “feminism—and his general portrayal of “the wonder women of Westeros”—has its very strict limits. The primary one is this: the “liberated women,” when they are positively portrayed, are always loyal to their patriarch while he lives, and are very much in line with his wishes/ will. The “revolutionary freedoms”—sexual and otherwise—that they take are generally approved of—covertly or overtly—by him. They rarely want power in and of itself (Asha only makes her bid for queen when there are no competent men to do so; Danerys starts vying for the crown when she is the last of her dynasty, and is spurred on by altruistic reasons); they never threaten the structure of the patriarchy as a whole (as the demonized Cersei Lannister and, to a certain extent, the youthfully foolish Arrianne Martell do); and most of all, they never explicitly disobey their patriarch for their own wants, desire, prerogative. When Cersei Lannister, Lysa Tully, Arrianne Martell and, as a child, Sansa Stark do this, they are inordinately demonized for it.

Compared to the Sandsnakes, Brienne, Asha and others, Arrianne starts out slightly different. At first, she wants power and inheritance, and is prepared to use sex to get it. Furthermore, the roots of her rebellion are distinctly feminist and entrenched in gender issues, relating to inheritance and power. For instance, when she notes to Aerys that Myrcella should inherit since she is elder than Tommen and "more fit for rule," Aerys tells her "A son comes before a daughter." Arrianne responds in the following manner:

“Why? What god has made it so? I am my father’s heir. Should I give up my rights to my brothers?”

“You twist my words. I never said. Dorne is different. The Seven Kingdoms have never had a ruling queen.”

“The first Viserys intended his daughter Rhaenyra to follow him, do you deny it? But as the king lay dying the Lord Commander of his Kingsguard decided that it should be otherwise.”

Then later the two have the following exchange:

Ser Arys frowned. …“What would you have me do?”

“No more than you have sworn. Protect Myrcella with your life. Defend her, and her rights. Set a crown upon her head.”

…Myrcella should by rights sit the Iron Throne.”

Arrianne finishes the conversation noting that she fears her father will not let her inherit, and sharing her fears about her brother. She connects her cause with Myrcella's, and notes that Aerys must help both her and Myrcella regain their rights (Myrcella the Iron Throne; she Dorne.)

I am not the heir my father wants, he has made that plain. Our laws constrain him, but he would sooner have my brother follow him, I know it.”

“Anders Yronwood is Criston Cole reborn. He whispers in my brother’s ear that he should rule after my father, that it is not right for men to kneel to women, that Arianne especially is unfit to rule, being the willful wanton that she is.” She tossed her hair defiantly.
“So your two princesses share a common cause, ser.”

Now honestly, to say this has nothing to do with feminism (or issues of women’s rights in a patriarchal society) seems rather ridiculous to me. Clearly, Arrianne is rebelling against Doran because she believes he is denying her power and what is hers by rights. She also clearly believes that women should have a right to inherit every bit as much as men. As she notes:

A son comes before a daughter.”“Why? What god has made it so? I am my father’s heir. Should I give up my rights to my brothers?”

Arianne clearly sees herself as standing up for the rights of both herself and Myrcella, as women who have been denied their rights due to their sex. The fact that she is also using Myrcella to gain what she needs is true; but the fact that she thinks she is helping the girl and standing up for what is morally right and fair is equally undeniable.

So, what makes Arrianne so different from the others, initially? She is both defying her father, the sacred patriarch, and using sex, and her own body, to get ahead. Furthermore, just as significantly, she feels that she is being overtly denied, overlooked, and mistreated by her society due to her gender. The only other woman who resembles Arrianne in all these things? Is Cersei.

Initially, Arrianne sleeps with Aerys to gain his help, plans to overthrown her father, feels she is being treated unjustly due to her gender, and wants power and inheritance. (Partially because she believes it should be hers by right of her land, which I guess makes her more redeemable than Cersei… or something.) She believes she is standing up for herself and Myrcella, against the patriarchy that oppresses and denies them. She thinks things like, “you see, Quentyn.. a woman can shine just as brightly as a man.”

She is wrong in everything. Her actions lead to her lover dying, Darkstar getting more screentime, and Myrcella getting maimed for life. And all for nothing, because Doran had a plan and was going to let Arrianne inherit all along.

After her plan fails miserably, Arrianne is imprisoned by her father. Shortly after being imprisoned, she thinks to herself, “The Sansnakes were taught with weapons; but I know how to fight with my mind. I will get out of here; and I will do it by outsmarting those around me.” She then reflects that she is clever and intelligent, forms a plan to escape… only to fail epically, miserably, humiliatingly. (In a way that appears to be designed to show she is a silly little girl and not nearly so clever as she fancies herself.) She then tries to escape several more times by hatching plans with her intellect, only to fail again and again. It seems as though she is being portrayed as idiotic; a woman who greatly overestimates her intelligence. (In some respects Arrianne’s last chapter, as she thinks herself clever and strong and then tries to escape and fails again and again, reminded me of Cersei’s AFFC chapters in miniature.)

Then her all wise father comes and talks with her. It turns out no one is mistreating her due to her sex—she was utterly deluded in that. Her father had plans for her all along, which were naturally much wiser and better than those for herself. And Doran’s reason for not telling Arrianne—she would have blabbed the secret to her cousins—is clearly supposed to be something that most readers regard as utterly legitimate, true, and sensible.

In the end, Doran was the man with the plan all along. He is wise; Arrianne’s is proved inferior and foolish. Before she not only didn’t obey her patriarch, she actively set against him. She also used sex to get ahead and get what she wanted. Due to this folly, Arrianne’s lover has been murdered, a little girl horrifically maimed, and a war almost started. Arrianne’s redemption comes from recognizing her father as the boss, and listening to/ obeying him in all things.

When we next see her, she is good, and of course, totally on Doran’s side, and obeying him in all things. Later, apparently she cannot go a single day without getting a raven from her father telling her exactly what to do.

Though some may see the thing as both Arrianne and Doran making their own mistakes and learning their lesson, unfortunately, a great many things about the whole storyline in my eyes point to Doran being shown largely in the right, Arrianne in the wrong. Though Doran could have been more hands on and less hesitant (I’ve always felt the book implied), it was Arianne who was foolish, willful, and stupidly caused great suffering by rebelling against her naturally wiser and far superior patriarch, who has had the plan all along. (And has only refrained from informing her of it because she can’t keep her mouth shut.)

I’d also love to see it as a case of youth vs. age. However this is not the first time a woman has disobeyed her patriarch, and been inordinately demonized for it. For instance:

Cersei: Takes the same rights (infidelity with a partner of her choice) as Robert does. Also threatens the patriarchy itself at its very root by sneakily usurping it, having the children of another man rather than her rightful husband. This is portrayed as unambiguously evil, unnatural, revolting, and destructive, and is generally decried by readers everywhere.

Lysa: Lysa disobeys her father and sleeps with the boy she wants. Her father then forces her to have a traumatic abortion at the age of 16, (leading to a future of traumatic, PTSD inducing miscarriages), and marry an ancient man. And the bad guy in this story… is Lysa? Yes it is. Lysa is portrayed as foolish, petty, childish, selfish and grotesque. Rather than being portrayed as an evil woman whose made bad choices but was nevertheless honestly hard done by, it seemed as though the text went out of it’s way to show Lysa’s complaints as petty, bitchy, and foolish. (For instance, she just doesn’t like Jon A. because of his bad breath and fake teeth; she blames him for the miscarriages and was always hoping for him to die; all she ever wanted was hot sex with LF, because she’s a grotesque, revolting freak.) Hoster Tully the forcible aborter and pimper of daughters, meanwhile, is portrayed as basically a good man whose wicked daughter will not even return for his funeral.

Sansa herself: Her “betrayal” of her father—simply going behind his back to secure her own destiny; having no idea of the consequences of her actions—is blown out of all proportion. While I’ve thought for a long time this is due to the issues of readers, looking back upon the text, Sansa’s telling Cersei about Ned’s plans is made to look like the ultimate, unthinkable betrayal. And what, is Sansa ultimately responsible for? (Since she clearly did not realize that going to Cersei would lead to any serious consequences for her father?) She’s guilty of putting her own desires and choices above an unsupported, unexplained demand from her great father/ patriarch, Ned Stark.

And just to clarify things, GRRM himself (who is well aware of the hatred for Sansa and how much people blame her for the Ned incident, and has commented on this in the past) has specifically argued in recent interviews that Sansa should be held culpable for the Ned incident.

So yeah, Asha, the Sansnakes, and now Arrianne are great in some ways. But the issue remains that all of these positively portrayed liberated women never disobey their patriarch.

Sansa herself does as a child, and arguably spends the following several books being punished for this.

ETA: Of course, I am exaggerating for effect a bit here. And I hope my post does not offend anyone. (That is, assuming anyone actually is able to make it through the whole extensive post :blushing: ) However, the more I reflect on it, the more serious the betraying the will of the patriarch thing seems.

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Queen Cersei, Arienne attempts to escape once from her imprisonment (unless you include the time when she tries to run out through the door). That's really not 'again and again'. I'd disagree about Oakheart too, he's not her lover, he's somebody she's seduced for political purposes. While I agree about the justice of her cause from her point of view we can see as readers that she is silly, not because her Father has a better plan, but because her plan is desperate - she has built up no base of noble supporters who can give her the swords she needs beforehand. She's purely hoping that having declared Myrcella Queen supporters will emerge and take on her cause just for fun.

While I broadly agree with the rest (saving quibbles and nit-picking like I don't think that Hoster Tully comes across as a goodie two-shoes) who is demonising Sansa? OK so you mention GRRM has said that she has some culpability in Cersei's coup - well she does, we can't have our cake and eat it on that question, she can't be both bypassing patriarchal authority and going to a font of female power for assistance and advise and not be culpable in part! Having said that of course her part is a very minor one particularly compared to the massive parts played by Littlefinger and The Ned.

So who is demonising Sansa? The readers? Don't forget that you are one of those readers too your majesty ;) !

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And just to clarify things, GRRM himself (who is well aware of the hatred for Sansa and how much people blame her for the Ned incident, and has commented on this in the past) has specifically argued in recent interviews that Sansa should be held culpable for the Ned incident.

I have read what he said about Sansa, but I can't find the link. He didn't really say it was Sansa's fault. He pointed out that it had to do with several things: Ned telling Cersei to begin with, Renly buggering off so not being their as back up, LF inparticular was a major factor and GRRM said if Janos Slynt had been honest instead of taking a bribe then Ned would have had the gold cloaks.

He said the informations Sansa gave let Cersei know about the ship she and Arya were meant to get on, where Arya was and who would be on the ship.

My interpretation of what he said was that if anything, it meant that Sansa buggered her and Arya's escape. However LF already knew Ned was going to confront the Queen, before Sansa said anything. Cersei and Tyrion are quite unaware of how conivining LF was: they were both played by him. This is what I referred to earlier about taking character's words as gospel. Cersei tells Tyrion that it was close and that Sansa betrayed her father's plans. Cersei of course was unaware that it wasn't that close as LF had already bribed the Gold Cloaks. She also puts the blame firmly on Sansa in the conversation as she is not going to tell her brother (as she did in the show) that Ned Stark had come to her first offering her mercy. Therefore when Tyrion later reflects on Sansa, he thinks of her as untrustworthy and not able to keep secrets. Neither of these things are true.

However I think because of the initial Arya/ Joff fight many people skim read Sansa's chapters, or don't pay very close attention to them, so miss a lot of stuff.

To be honest I never understood why Ned hadn't made sure his daughters had got safely away before he confronted Cersei. Also if Ned hadn't told Cersei his plans, then Sansa going to Cersei to ask to stay would have meant nothing. It would have seemed like since Jaime attacked his men and there had been the Tyrion debacle, that Ned was sending his daughters home.

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Yes, I agree this is very much so. And despite the admiration here (which I agree with) for the wonder women of Westeros—Asha, Arya, Arrianne, the Sandsnakes et. Al.—there is one essential issue that should be noted with all these positively portrayed women. All of the strong women—who have sex, fight, and are generally self sufficient—nevertheless do so with the approval and support of their father/ designated patriarch.

I never got the impression that Doran approved of Arianne's sexuality :

"A knight of the Kingsguard... what did you do to him ?"

"I fucked him, Father. You did command me to entertain our noble visitors, as I recall."

His face grew flushed. "Was that all that was required ?"

"I told him that once Myrcella was the queen she would give us leave to marry. He wanted me for his wife."

"You did everything you could to stop him from dishonoring his vows, I am certain" her father said.

He definitely is not overjoyed as the thought of his daughter fucking a knight of the Kingsguard. But this is Dorne, and this is how women are in Dorne. So even if Doran doesn't like it, they do fuck whoever they want.

They take sexual and professional freedoms not common elsewhere; but doing so is never against the will of their patriarch, whom they inevitably follow and obey. For instance, the Sandsnakes all take sexual freedom and fight, but do so with the express approval (and encouragement) of their father. They are also utterly loyal and obedient to him; and transfer this loyalty to Doran after Oberyn the Patriarch’s death. (This is shown as a positive and redemptive moment for the sandsnakes in ADWD; when they pledge unquestioning loyalty to Doran and submit to do his bidding, they are shown to be basically good, smart, positive women despite their vengefulness.)
I also don't see much "unquestionning loyalty" in the Sand Snakes... I see them grudgingly accepting because Doran and Arianne promise them that they do intend to take revenge on the Lannisters.

Similarly, Asha is the consummate independent woman. She takes whichever lovers she pleases, works for herself, fights. A regular 21rst century liberated feminist. But look closer, and the fact is that Asha is clearly allowed these rights by her father, whom she obeys and follows as long as he is alive. She is loyal to him, does his will, and thus, with her weak willed and hostaged little brother, gets named his heir.

So do you think it would be better if Asha did not obey her father (who also is her liege lord) ? Especially if what her father wants goes along with what she wants ?

(Note—I do not note this fact—that all of the sexually and physically liberated women in these books are all submissive and obedient to their patriarch—to degrade or insult Asha, the Sandsnakes, or other women in Westeros who have done admirable or amazing things. I am simply trying to point out the fact that GRRM’s “feminism—and his general portrayal of “the wonder women of Westeros”—has its very strict limits. The primary one is this: the “liberated women,” when they are positively portrayed, are always loyal to their patriarch while he lives, and are very much in line with his wishes/ will. The “revolutionary freedoms”—sexual and otherwise—that they take are generally approved of—covertly or overtly—by him. They rarely want power in and of itself (Asha only makes her bid for queen when there are no competent men to do so; Danerys starts vying for the crown when she is the last of her dynasty, and is spurred on by altruistic reasons); they never threaten the structure of the patriarchy as a whole (as the demonized Cersei Lannister and, to a certain extent, the youthfully foolish Arrianne Martell do); and most of all, they never explicitly disobey their patriarch for their own wants, desire, prerogative. When Cersei Lannister, Lysa Tully, Arrianne Martell and, as a child, Sansa Stark do this, they are inordinately demonized for it.

I disagree with almost everything you say here ! :laugh:

- Yes, many WWW (Wonder Women of Westeros) are loyal to their patriarch. Has it ever occured to you that said partiarchs are also their bloody liege lords ? Like in : every one have to obey them, not only women. It is a feudal society, you are supposed to obey your liege lord.

- "Asha only maked her bid for queen when there are no competent men to do so". Please, do you really believe that ? She wants to be queen because she believes she his her father's rightful heir. She wants to take her chance, like all the other candidates at the kingsmoot. And she does explicitly disobey Euron when he becomes the official "patriarch" (gods, I hate that word). She disobeys him because of her own wants, desires and prerogatives : she does not want him as king, she does not want to be married against her will, she wants to be a free woman...

- "Dany starts vying for the crown when she is the last of her dynasty, and is spurred on by altruistic reasons." What ? altruistic reasons ? As in "I'm the blood of the dragon, and I shall take what is mine with fire and blood?". She does rebel against Viserys, hitting him and theatening him. And she does threaten the structure of Dothraki patriarchy, when she refuses to join the crones on Vaes Dothrak and gives the title khaleesi a new meaning : not "khal's wife" anymore, but "female khal". She braid her hair and hangs bells in it : she must be the first woman in Dotharki history to do so.

Initially, Arrianne sleeps with Aerys to gain his help

Nothing to do with the rest of the argumentation, but I just had this vision of Arianne in bed with King Scab and I do not thank you for this ! :ack:

Her actions lead to her lover dying, Darkstar getting more screentime, and Myrcella getting maimed for life. And all for nothing, because Doran had a plan and was going to let Arrianne inherit all along.

Darkstar getting more screentime is definitely her worst crime ! :laugh:

After her plan fails miserably, Arrianne is imprisoned by her father. Shortly after being imprisoned, she thinks to herself, “The Sansnakes were taught with weapons; but I know how to fight with my mind. I will get out of here; and I will do it by outsmarting those around me.” She then reflects that she is clever and intelligent, forms a plan to escape… only to fail epically, miserably, humiliatingly. (In a way that appears to be designed to show she is a silly little girl and not nearly so clever as she fancies herself.)

It seems as if you read what you want to read. Yes, she tries to escape and fails. She is a prisoner, for R'hlorr's sake ! Not many prisoners can escape when they are locked in a tower cell. This chapter does not strikes me as a that of a silly little girl, but rather as one expressing frustration and impotence. I never found Arianne silly. A bit rash and foolish, maybe, but nor silly.

Then her all wise father comes and talks with her. It turns out no one is mistreating her due to her sex—she was utterly deluded in that. Her father had plans for her all along, which were naturally much wiser and better than those for herself. And Doran’s reason for not telling Arrianne—she would have blabbed the secret to her cousins—is clearly supposed to be something that most readers regard as utterly legitimate, true, and sensible.

So your agument is not about the text itself but about what you think the author wants the readers to think. In most of your "GRRM is an awful mysogynist"-based posts* you come down to that : you accuse the author based on readers' reaction.

That seems to be a bit unfair. Martin wrote the story of a father who refuses to trust her daughter with his secrets, then the daughter gets desperate because of this and does foolish things, and the father then reveals his secrets to her and she does her best to help him. I read it as the father making a big mistake in not telling her at least part of his secrets (and the daughter being a bit foolish too), because when he does trust her, it works well. Some may read it as the father being right and the daughter being absolutely silly. There may be many other interpretations as well. How is Martin to blame for one interpretation that you find to be a bit misogynistic ? Why don't you blame the readers instead ?

*Yes, I'm exaggerating a bit, I know that... But you do seem intent on making him appear a misogynist to some extent.

She also used sex to get ahead and get what she wanted. Due to this folly, Arrianne’s lover has been murdered, a little girl horrifically maimed, and a war almost started. Arrianne’s redemption comes from recognizing her father as the boss, and listening to/ obeying him in all things.

Oh, come on... The cause of Arianne's failure is not her having sex, it's her plan being a very very bad one. Actually, her seduction of Arys is the one part that worked well. And while Doran is obviously not pleased by it, it is not this action he has problems with : it is her rebelling against him, her father and liege lord. So yes, Arianne begins to listen to him again... once he has proved to her that he did not intend to cheat her and wanted the same thing as she.

When her father/Prince/liege lord acts (or she thinks he acts) against her interests, she rebels. When they both wants the same thing, she is loyal to him again.

Same thing with Asha : Balon lets her do what she wants, she is loyal to him. Euron wants her to be the wife of what's-his-name, she rebels against him.

Same thing (to some extent) with Brienne : her father lets her be a "swordwench", but when her future husband tells her that she will have to be a proper woman once they are wed, she breaks his collarbone (at least I think it was the collarbone).

I’d also love to see it as a case of youth vs. age. However this is not the first time a woman has disobeyed her patriarch, and been inordinately demonized for it. For instance:

Cersei: Takes the same rights (infidelity with a partner of her choice) as Robert does. Also threatens the patriarchy itself at its very root by sneakily usurping it, having the children of another man rather than her rightful husband. This is portrayed as unambiguously evil, unnatural, revolting, and destructive, and is generally decried by readers everywhere.

You conveniently forget that the man she chose was her brother.

This is what is portayed as evil, unnatural and revolting. Not the adultery but the incest. You know, like when Robert's children are only bastards, but Cercei's are "abominations born of incest". But no, surely this is all Martin being an awful misogynist...

Lysa: Lysa disobeys her father and sleeps with the boy she wants. Her father then forces her to have a traumatic abortion at the age of 16, (leading to a future of traumatic, PTSD inducing miscarriages), and marry an ancient man. And the bad guy in this story… is Lysa? Yes it is. Lysa is portrayed as foolish, petty, childish, selfish and grotesque. Rather than being portrayed as an evil woman whose made bad choices but was nevertheless honestly hard done by, it seemed as though the text went out of it’s way to show Lysa’s complaints as petty, bitchy, and foolish. (For instance, she just doesn’t like Jon A. because of his bad breath and fake teeth; she blames him for the miscarriages and was always hoping for him to die; all she ever wanted was hot sex with LF, because she’s a grotesque, revolting freak.) Hoster Tully the forcible aborter and pimper of daughters, meanwhile, is portrayed as basically a good man whose wicked daughter will not even return for his funeral.

Again, this is all your interpretation of the author's intention based on readers' reaction.

I don't deny that Lysa is not portrayed in a very good light, but I always saw it as the sad result of what happened to her, and while I dislike her (she tried to throw the little bird from a mountain !), I still pity her.

And I don't think Hoster Tully is being whitewashed for what he did to Lysa : yes other characters think him a good man and wonder why Lysa does not come for the funerals, but they do not know that he forced her to abort. And Hoster himself is tortured by guilt on his death bed... surely it must mean that it was not right.

And I never saw anyone reproach Lysa for wanting sex with LF. And even if some readers did reproach her, I would blame said readers, not the author. My reaction as reader to LF and Lysa's wedding was that chosen partners are best : Lysa is described as being transformed by love.

Mead and marriage had taken years off Lady Lysa. She laughed at everything so long as she held her husband's hand, and her eyes seemed to glow whenever she looked at him.

So here is this women who has been destroyed by an arranged marriage, and now that she is marrying for love she is shining. How do you get this as misogynistic ?

ETA: Of course, I am exaggerating for effect a bit here. And I hope my post does not offend anyone. (That is, assuming anyone actually is able to make it through the whole extensive post :blushing: ) However, the more I reflect on it, the more serious the betraying the will of the patriarch thing seems.

I agree, it is a feudal society, of course the will of the patriarch/lord is important. But it doesn't apply only to women :

- Theon disobeyed his father and took Winterfell instead of following orders. His punishment for it is way worse than Arianne's, and he did not even commit actual treason !

- The Rabbit Knights (I don't remember their actual name) : they were ordered to stay quiet and listen to their elder, but they childishly decided to play at war with rabbit skins... they all died in a very silly way.

- Tyrion married against his father will, and said father destroyed the wedding, the wife, and any hope Tyrion had that he could be loved for himself (and I don't even mention poor Tysha's fate... :stillsick: )

- Samwell had the presumptuousness not to be what his father expected of him : he gets a choice between Death or the Wall.

- Bryden Tully disobeyed his "patriarch" (his brother) and refused to marry. He had to get away from Riverrun and was never forgiven for it.

He said the informations Sansa gave let Cersei know about the ship she and Arya were meant to get on, where Arya was and who would be on the ship.

My interpretation of what he said was that if anything, it meant that Sansa buggered her and Arya's escape.

So, Sansa is not responsible for Ned's death, but for Syrio's ? :frown5:

Cersei tells Tyrion that it was close and that Sansa betrayed her father's plans. Cersei of course was unaware that it wasn't that close as LF had already bribed the Gold Cloaks. She also puts the blame firmly on Sansa in the conversation as she is not going to tell her brother (as she did in the show) that Ned Stark had come to her first offering her mercy. Therefore when Tyrion later reflects on Sansa, he thinks of her as untrustworthy and not able to keep secrets. Neither of these things are true.
You know, I never thought about that, but it seems obvious now that you mention it... Of course she will never tell anyone how Ned came to her. But I wonder if she ever experienced remorse... I mean, she never thinks about it in her POV, does she ?

To be honest I never understood why Ned hadn't made sure his daughters had got safely away before he confronted Cersei. Also if Ned hadn't told Cersei his plans, then Sansa going to Cersei to ask to stay would have meant nothing. It would have seemed like since Jaime attacked his men and there had been the Tyrion debacle, that Ned was sending his daughters home.

Yeah, what is the point of sending them home if the hostilities start before they are gone ? Stupid, stupid Ned :rolleyes: (So Queen Cercei I, see : male characters do stupid things too... )
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Lysa: Lysa disobeys her father and sleeps with the boy she wants. Her father then forces her to have a traumatic abortion at the age of 16, (leading to a future of traumatic, PTSD inducing miscarriages), and marry an ancient man. And the bad guy in this story… is Lysa? Yes it is. Lysa is portrayed as foolish, petty, childish, selfish and grotesque. Rather than being portrayed as an evil woman whose made bad choices but was nevertheless honestly hard done by, it seemed as though the text went out of it’s way to show Lysa’s complaints as petty, bitchy, and foolish. (For instance, she just doesn’t like Jon A. because of his bad breath and fake teeth; she blames him for the miscarriages and was always hoping for him to die; all she ever wanted was hot sex with LF, because she’s a grotesque, revolting freak.) Hoster Tully the forcible aborter and pimper of daughters, meanwhile, is portrayed as basically a good man whose wicked daughter will not even return for his funeral.

Lysa *raped* Littlefinger. Rape is a bad thing that bad guys (and girls) do. She's not a sympathetic character, but she is fairly pitiful. Also I don't think Hoster is portrayed very rosily at all.

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Lysa *raped* Littlefinger. Rape is a bad thing that bad guys (and girls) do. She's not a sympathetic character, but she is fairly pitiful. Also I don't think Hoster is portrayed very rosily at all.

I've argued before that we don't really have enough information to say for sure it was rape. It could very well have been, but it's a complicated topic best left for another thread, I think, as it falls outside the scope of this one?

On another note, there are a couple of small tidbits/pieces of information that may fit this thread which have popped up in other threads during the last couple of days.

a. Does Myranda suspect Alayne of being someone else? Does Bronze Yohn Royce? The Mad Mouse? Have these three been placed where they are simply to show that Sansa is now quite adept at playing the deception game?

b. When Sandor is travelling with Arya through the Riverlands and talking about how prettily Sansa sang and then goes on about how Robb needed him, was that wishful thinking, or does/did he actually know some useful information? In that case, what?

c. The incest thing - he has been close by to Cersei for years. Did he know/suspect Joffrey was not a Baratheon? Could this be linked to b. ?

d. Varys - does he care that Sansa is gone? He does not seem particularly bothered by this, perhaps he doesn't think Ned Stark's daughter is of any use to his plans so he simply does not care? But does that really mesh with a personality that wants complete information about everything? I also can't believe that it hasn't crossed his mind that Littlefinger did it.

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c - the incest business is pretty irrelevant since Stannis sent ravens everywhere proclaiming Joffrey and siblings to be abominations born of incest (so don't expect a Sevenmass present from your uncle this year Joff.), even Bran gets to hear of it in ACOK I'm sure. If Sandor thinks that the incest is hot news it just shows how out of touch he is.

d - is interesting. How long is it from the Purple Wedding to Tyrion's escape? After that Varys presumably doesn't have quite the same freedom to procure information and chase up leads

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