[Book Spoilers] EP 208 Discussion Mk. II

[Harimad]

I agree with most of this, but I was very disappointed when they didn't show Arya kick Hot Pie's butt when he wanted to take her sword. I think that would have set her up to show how tough and spirited she was. It would have lent more to her becoming a "mouse" at Harrenhall. They skipped that part, and her slitting the guard's throat too. And her practicing her "needlework" (which, I felt, showed her holding onto her inner wolf) In my opinion, HBO is trying to make her look more like a weak little girl, than one with juevos. Hopefully they will start showing her transition more. Arya is one of my favorite characters, and I just didn't feel like the changes exactly did her justice. They could have at least put in the scene with Hot Pie, and her doing "needlework". :(

very true! not to mention that Hot Pie needs a good arse kicking! I think they could have maybe shortened some of the Tywin scenes and shown her off killing trees with her needle. I do have to admit, I was really disappointed that Jaquen killed both of the guards and Arya didn't do any throat slitting. Her first kill was a big step in her transition

[drm7]

David Benioff and D B Weiss actually said they are going to try and do nine seasons. As the books get bigger, they said they aren't going to focus on doing one book per season. They said they were just going to try and tell GRRM's story in nine seasons, however that might happen. So certain books maybe two seasons, and others only one. They may even do one book over a season and a half. Their main "goal" is just to tell GRRM's story, with what time they have.

I read somewhere else on this site that Season 3 was going to be the 1st half of A STORM OF SWORDS. Gee, I wonder what the last episode will be? Some big event in the middle of the book...hmm...

I could see combining A FEAST FOR CROWS and A DANCE WITH DRAGONS and taking three (or even four) seasons to cover the combined storyline.

[Currawong]

David Benioff and D B Weiss actually said they are going to try and do nine seasons. As the books get bigger, they said they aren't going to focus on doing one book per season. They said they were just going to try and tell GRRM's story in nine seasons, however that might happen. So certain books maybe two seasons, and others only one. They may even do one book over a season and a half. Their main "goal" is just to tell GRRM's story, with what time they have.

Yes, and that makes a lot of sense, given that AFFC and ADWD run in parallel for the most part, and it was basically a practical publishing decision that made GRRM separate the story lines into two volumes. I believe that D and D are going to "re-integrate" them as far as possible, which will allow viewers to keep in touch with key characters and not 'lose' a number of them for a whole season or more. I expect that ASOS, AFFC and ADWD wil take at least 4, possibly 5 seasons overall.

Yes, indeed. The Lannister family reunion is a Thankgiving not to be missed. How many years on HBO before Tyrion says "tata" to Dad?

Oh yes, YES! And before Tyrion, we have that scene where Jaime returns to KL and tells his father that he doesn't want any part of Tywin's plotting, including marrying Margaery. Which I hope, HOPE will get shown with the key book dialogue, especially having seen how Charles Dance and NCW spark on screen together in season 1:-

"She can die a maiden as far as I am concerned. I don't want her, and I don't want your Rock!"

"You are my son - "

"I am a knight of the Kingsguard. The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. And that's all I mean to be!"

WHAM! Take that one, Tywin, for all those dreams of a family legacy that you outlined to Arya in Episode 7! Proud and determined Tywin leaving Harrenhal in Episode 8 to go and win the war across in KL, when book readers know he will ultimately be rejected by his 'ideal' son and killed by the son that he has scorned over the years :D It's such a bitter irony. But it's in the second part of ASOS, so wonder whether I have to wait for Season 4 to see that?

Edited May 24, 2012 by Currawong

[Leuf]

For that matter, what is the goal of the Iron Islanders? They don't want to stray too far away from water, so they shouldn't be much of a threat to others than people living by the shore. They can't, or don't even want to, make a continental realm.

Keep in mind that later on Asha/Yara is the one who wants to just settle for part of the Stony Shore rather than go conquesting, and she's the one delivering the message here. Balon did plan to take the entire North, but now that Theon has messed with the plan and everyone thinks Bran and Rickon are dead he may be reevaluating things. We don't know that Balon is thinking, we only know what Yara is telling us and we know that she isn't big on conquest of land away from the sea as everyone else.

Unlike in the book, we now already learn that Bran and Rickon are alive. Why not keep that reveal until the last ep?

Because it was obvious and always going to be obvious, so saving it for the finale makes your finale weak. It's even obviously fishy in the book, but then it just goes on so long after that you sort of accept it, and then you get the reveal. That doesn't work on tv. It's importance in the book is much more as the plot driver for Cat and Robb to act as they do, which the show doesn't use. So the whole thing was pretty pointless.

[Harrad]

Her first kill was a big step in her transition

Didnt she kill a fat boy in KL (at least in the book)?

[GreenDream]

Didnt she kill a fat boy in KL (at least in the book)?

Yes, the stable boy. When she was fleeing the red keep and came upon the wagon that she was supposed to leave in. She found all her father's men dead. She found her chest and found needle in it, then the boy came and said he was going to get the guards. She stabbed him in the belly. Pretty sure they showed that in the 1st season too.

[Harrad]

No it was a dumb move...I don't know how anybody could think you were talking about Osha, she didn't even talk to Theon this episode. You even called her Yaya, which is a lot closer to Yara than Osha. However, considering the poster called her Usha, instead of Osha, I don't know what they were thinking.

It was a good move. (Osha/Usha was in episode 8 at the end underneath Winterfell--not chatting with Theon then, but nearby.) I even cornfused Yoren and Bron at first..both thin dark sarcastic sell sword or ranger. I got them straight well before Yoren bought it on the way back to the Wall.

[Ghost714]

It was a good move. (Osha/Usha was in episode 8 at the end underneath Winterfell--not chatting with Theon then, but nearby.) I even cornfused Yoren and Bron at first..both thin dark sarcastic sell sword or ranger. I got them straight well before Yoren bought it on the way back to the Wall.

I am sorry, but if your getting the names confused, that's nothing compared to how complex the story gets, so you might be in trouble, unless the show seriously dumbs everything down, which I guess is pretty much what they are doing..... Damn that sucks.

How is it confusing if Osha is around Theon? Osha looks nothing like Asha/Yara, one is a Wildling that is decently attractive, and the other is a lifeless Iron Islander? How can Osha and Asha be confusing, but not Yara and Arya?

I don't know what to tell you about Bronn and Yoren, your going to be very confused if the show has Daenerys going to Meereen then.... Oh wait, the show will probably change their names to something stupid to, damn it.

No Hizdahr zo Loraq, or Skahaz mo Kandaq, or Reznak mo Reznak.... If people reading the books can get those names straight, without being able to put a face to the name when they first read it, then surely the show viewers can figure out who Asha and Osha are, same for Bronn and Yoren.

Man your post has really got me scared for the future story on the show...

[Harrad]

I saw season 1 before reading the books. Yoren left the Wall with Tyrion. Soon thereafter Bron helps Tyrion in the inn where Catelyn took him. So I got them confused temporarily. BFD.If you can keep all the names straight even when they sound the same, and all the actors straight even when they look the same, you should be very proud. And indeed you are. Now, just be kind to the little people without your keen, discerning intellect.

[Ghost714]

I saw season 1 before reading the books. Yoren left the Wall with Tyrion. Soon thereafter Bron helps Tyrion in the inn where Catelyn took him. So I got them confused temporarily. BFD.If you can keep all the names straight even when they sound the same, and all the actors straight even when they look the same, you should be very proud. And indeed you are. Now, just be kind to the little people without your keen, discerning intellect.

Bronn didn't help Tyrion until after they had been at the Eyrie for some time, which was a few episodes after Yoren was seperated from Tyrion. Bronn was around Tyrion, on the way to the Eyrie, but at that time he was helping Catelyn take Tyrion to Lysa at Eyrie.

And I am not saying everybody should have everything down on the first viewing, or on their first read, I know I didn't. However, they shouldn't change a name just because it might be a little confusing at first, that way everytime you rewatch an episode, it's that much better, because it all comes together more and more, as you get more familiar with the material. If they dumb everything down, then there is no reason to rewatch the episodes. GRRM didn't dumb anything down, there are dozens of people with the same names in the books etc, yet that has not stopped the books from being crazy succesful. The story being so complex is what makes people get into it so much, and that's why people enjoy rereading the books multiple times, because your always catching things you didn't before, and the more you read it, the more it all comes together.

Honestly, you have read the books, you know how complex they are, if the show has to change the names of characters now, what's that mean for the things that are actually really confusing down the road? That's what scares me for the future of the story for the show.

Besides, the show already kept the names of some characters that share the same names as other characters(Jon Snow and Jon Arryn Robb and Robert etc), so what was the point in changing Asha's name?

[Arbor Gold I'm Sold]

How disappointed were you in what I believe was the ruining of Robb Starks character? He showed all the greatest of character traits in the book. His only real flaw came when he was wounded and bedded Jeyne Westerling. He stepped up and did the right thing and married her though. In the show he just chooses love over his duty. He is not going north to save Winterfell. He is going to send Ramsey 'Crazy Mofo' Bolten to save the day. Are we seeing the whole Red Wedding erased here or what? Personally I was hoping Talisia was just Jeyne undercover which was going to be revealed in Episode 8 when they went to the Crag. I can understand having to shorten things for tv versus the books but that is not what is really happening. So much is being added for tiny benefits to the destruction of the characters and story. I am enjoying the show immensely. Don't get me wrong. In my opinion the reasons why people are who they are and do what they do are suffering so greatly for what?

Edited May 24, 2012 by Arbor Gold I'm Sold

[legba11]

I think it would be a good idea to compress the action in books 3 and 4 at least. After all, what has to be accomplished? Ooops, quite a bit actually. Jon has to finish his ranging, come back, get promoted, and then ? Dany has to go from not much to quite a lot. Arya takes up residence in Bravos. Sansa and Littlefinger to the Aerie (in principle this could be skipped, but whence those two?). The Red Wedding of course. The Addamms (er...Lannister) family reunion. Stannis fights another day and another day. Will the Dorne subplot remain? No one has yet guessed the feelthy word that was said 3 times in the episode by different characters in different venues. Was it strictly a medieval epithet? Forget about "idiot"; this one really rolled off the tongue.

How dare you?!?!?! The Lannisters are clearly the Munsters. Take that back.

Saw the last ep a few days ago, but it's been a busy week so I haven't had time to put down some random thoughts until now.

• Asha/Yaya/whatever her name is on HBO, is still an unsympathetic bitch, not at all like the character I thought from the books. Theon might be an incompetent brat, but why knowingly undermine him in front of others?.

The end of that scene put her treatment of Theon in perspective. She is not merely mocking him because he's weak. She truly cares about him and is trying to make him Ironborn again. She knows he has NO shot of living for long the way he is (both in terms of holding Winterfell and in terms of his behvaviour amongst dangerous Ironborn reavers.

Bronn didn't help Tyrion until after they had been at the Eyrie for some time, which was a few episodes after Yoren was seperated from Tyrion. Bronn was around Tyrion, on the way to the Eyrie, but at that time he was helping Catelyn take Tyrion to Lysa at Eyrie.

Tyrion enters the Inn where Catelyn is with him, still in Yoren's company (I don't know if you see Yoren in that scene, but he is clearly still in his company and that point since Yoren is the first person to get that news to KL and it is exactly what they talked about doing previously). In that scene, he meets Bronn (who takes his money for his room).

Edited May 24, 2012 by legba11

[The Monkey]

Has Roose Bolton been named on the show yet?

[legba11]

**Edit**

I hope D&D realize the series carries too many storylines to be a TV series. It is fine for us (the book readers), but it does not work on TV. Read the recappers and reviewers this year, they are grumbling about it already. It gets worse as the books go on. They need to just cut the fat and keep the stories streamlined and focused.

Book 3:

Jon and the Wall

Lannisters and enemies (Tyrells/ Red Viper) at KL

Dany and the Free Cities

Robb's collaspe

It was a terrible mistake to go away from the major storylines for weeks (Stannis disappeared for example, though at least Tyrion would talk about him). I would rather have 7 season and the series gets done, then a pipe-dream of 9 seasons and a Deadwood ending. Or a Rome ending. Or a Carnival ending. HBO does not have a good history for finishing these big, expensive period shows. Books 4 and 5 are even worse for unneeded (that isn't to say they were bad fiction, most of it was excellent) fat. They could easily trim those two books into part of Season 4 and all of Season 5. Of course there is NO chance Martin has book 7 ready on this this schedule (he has not mentioned Book 6 yet on his website, which he normally keeps up to date, other than references before finishing Book 5). I have no idea how they will deal with that.

[PatrickStormborn]

I could see combining A FEAST FOR CROWS and A DANCE WITH DRAGONS and taking three (or even four) seasons to cover the combined storyline.

Three/four seasons to cover such little action? The show's ratings would diminish.

The show runners should instead change the endings of the character arcs in ASOS so that they can cover a bit of AFFC/ADWD whilst moving the story forward at a faster rate than the books did.

[Targaryen Kaiser]

Has Roose Bolton been named on the show yet?

Robb's said a "We aren't executing prisoners, Lord Bolton" in episode 4. Actually, I like they are keeping a low profile to Roose, until now.

[legba11]

I have a feeling they are going to make Bolton's "turn" a part of the Red Wedding for a bigger impact, and to make him a clearer heel vs Stannis in the later books.

[Rickon is FIERCE]

a nasty name for a nasty thing"

WHAT?!?! Hardly :leer:

Pretty sure they showed that in the 1st season too.

Yup, they did.

I have a feeling they are going to make Bolton's "turn" a part of the Red Wedding for a bigger impact, and to make him a clearer heel vs Stannis in the later books.

I think you may be right, but that "Jaime Lannister sends his regards" line may have to come out, then, which is a shame.

[Harimad]

Yes, the stable boy. When she was fleeing the red keep and came upon the wagon that she was supposed to leave in. She found all her father's men dead. She found her chest and found needle in it, then the boy came and said he was going to get the guards. She stabbed him in the belly. Pretty sure they showed that in the 1st season too.

You are both correct! I forgot about that. My bad! I always felt like the kill at Harrenhall was different, though. She killed the boy in KL because he was going to tell on her and get her caught, it was more out of passion and emotion. The guard she kills at Harrenhall she tricks and then pretty cold-bloodedly slits his throat. Still necessary to her survival, of course, but she could have hit him in the head with a rock and knocked him out, so i always thought that kill took a little more cunning and planning, which made it a turning point.

[legba11]

The guard at Harrenhall is very important in terms of Arya's walk down the "dark" path. The stable boy was the first step, but I agree completely that the Harrenhall guard was the real point of no return for her. I think we will still get it in Ep10, perhaps not in Hareenhall, but a similar circumstance.