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Xray the Enforcer

[Book Spoilers] EP 208 Discussion Mk. II

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A Game of Thrones:

Robb: "I had hoped... If you still held the Imp, a trade of hostages..."

Robb: "If we march... even if we win.... the Lannisters hold Sansa, and Father. They'll kill them, won't they?"

Catelyn: They want us to think so."

Robb: You mean they're lying?"

Catelyn: I do not know, Robb. What i do know is that you do not have a choice. If you go swear fealty, you will be allowed to leave. If you return to winterfell, your lords will lose respect. Our only true hope is defeating the enemy in the field. So long as you have power enough that they fear you, the hostages should be safe."

It isn't until Ned died that Catelyn lost all taste for sense and decided Robb should surrender. By then Robb had assumed the mindset she wanted him too.

At that point they have no Lannister hostages, that's why winning in the field is the only hope. Once they've got the Kingslayer that's not necessary anymore to get the girls back.

"We went to war when Lannister armies were ravaging the Riverlands, and Ned was a prisoner, falsely accused of treason. We fought to defend ourselves, and to win my lord's freedom. Well, the one is done, and the other forever beyond our reach."

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So you think Tywin's whole army can reach Kings Landing in a day but gets no reporting that no one has seen Arya? I thought Tywin was talking about Jeffory must stand and fight and that Stannis was close but the Young Wolf was too close to Casterly Rock. You also are saying that Tywin just lies to his Generals at the small councel meeting for the Lannister party at Harranhal since that is when he said he was marching on Robb?

Tywin doesn't get there right when Stannis does, if you remember there was some fighting for awhile before Tywin gets there, so he might have more than a day to get there.

And I am not suggesting that he "lies" to his war Generals, he might have thought that Robb was closer than he is, Robb might have move further away, so they deside to head to Kings Landing. There are all sorts of things that could happen, in order for Tywin to show up in King's Landing.

However, even if he does not, which I highly freaking doubt, how is that going to some how stop the entire Red Wedding??? Just because Tywin marches against Robb, that does not mean he kills Robb. For all we know, Tywin could fight some of Robb's army, and Robb can be with the other part, or Robb could make Tywin retreat etc etc.

As for him not knowing about Arya. Pretty much, the only ones who know she is missing are the members of the Small Council, and they are exactly the ones who would be afraid of Tywin finding out, because they are to blame. So none of them are going to run off and tell Tywin, Littlefinger even made it sound like they still had both of them when they were talking about how he talked with Catelyn. It's one thing to not mention them at all, but to bring them up like she isn't missing, that's a whole different matter, and that's exactly the reasons Tywin doesn't know. Everybody is still trying to find Arya so they don't get blamed for her being gone, and ultimately if Tywin does find out, then they know Tyrion will say it was Cersei's fault, because she is the one that ordered all Ned's men to be killed, and his daughters taken into custody of the Crown.

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Catelyn also said to Littlefinger that there is no way two girls are worth The KIngslayer

I think, actually, what she said was there was no way Robb would trade two girls for the Kingslayer" which should be interpreted as "there is no way the men in charge are going to trade a known highborn swordsman to for two little girls with little political advantages." By which the idea that "girls aren't worth it" is defined.

Which is why LF replied, "I'm not bringing this to Robb. I'm bringing it to you."

Jaime being a valuable hostage is an illusion built on the idea that only men can be valuable hostages. Certainly the fact that Tywin did not immediately cease and desist after his capture shatters the idea that he was as valuable as everyone claims. He can't be traded, he can't be killed, he can't be returned. He's an albatross. Even Cercei won't trade for him. The only one willing to entertain the idea is Tyrion and obviously Catelyn, establishing these two characters as more similar than not, more practical and loyal than any of the other players. Tyrion is lauded for it, Catelyn is despised.

Edited by birdsong66

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You also are saying that Tywin just lies to his Generals at the small councel meeting for the Lannister party at Harranhal since that is when he said he was marching on Robb?

Watch that scene again, Tywin never says he is marching against Robb. He says he wants to get a march in before Robb knows what he is doing. He doesn't say what direction that march is going to be in. It's a misdirection for the non-book-readers so he can turn up at KL by surprise.

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Have we digressed to the book? Tywin heads to the Crag (where Robb is, also in the TV show) as planned by Robb, but is held up at Riverrun by an overzealous Edmure. While he is held up there he gets word of the Stannis attack and heads to KL instead. Now I have to watch the episode again - darn!

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The Red Wedding isnt just carnage. it shows Tywin's character. It shows Tyrion how to win a war with writing. It is the first overt act of Bolton as an ally of Lannister. It shows the Frey's character and leads to a lot of antiFrey activity that is important. I'd be surprised if the short dialog between Tywin and Tyrion re: the Red Wedding isnt en bloc put in the show.

JMHO

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Have we digressed to the book? Tywin heads to the Crag (where Robb is, also in the TV show) as planned by Robb, but is held up at Riverrun by an overzealous Edmure. While he is held up there he gets word of the Stannis attack and heads to KL instead. Now I have to watch the episode again - darn!

There is no Riverrun in the show so there is no plot reason for Tywin to go in one direction just to turn around, and there isn't time for him to do it either. There is a leaked casting video for season 3 where

Edmure is getting dressed down like he does in the book, but it's for holding up The Mountain not Tywin. So it's going to happen later in a slightly different way, as part of introducing the Tullys

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Because it was obvious and always going to be obvious, so saving it for the finale makes your finale weak. It's even obviously fishy in the book, but then it just goes on so long after that you sort of accept it, and then you get the reveal. That doesn't work on tv. It's importance in the book is much more as the plot driver for Cat and Robb to act as they do, which the show doesn't use. So the whole thing was pretty pointless.

Well, reading the book I never thought it obvious until the end reveal, and from reading a lot of comments about non-ACOK-readers, I think that also holds true for those viewers. And I don't like that they tossed the supposed deaths as a motivation for Cat's betrayal anyway...

The end of that scene put her treatment of Theon in perspective. She is not merely mocking him because he's weak. She truly cares about him and is trying to make him Ironborn again. She knows he has NO shot of living for long the way he is (both in terms of holding Winterfell and in terms of his behvaviour amongst dangerous Ironborn reavers.

I don't see how undermining her brother in public will make him any safer. I would think the opposite. Not that I care much for Theon or the Ironborn anyway... In the books I did care for Asha, but this Yara... not so much...

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Well, reading the book I never thought it obvious until the end reveal, and from reading a lot of comments about non-ACOK-readers, I think that also holds true for those viewers. And I don't like that they tossed the supposed deaths as a motivation for Cat's betrayal anyway...

I don't see how undermining her brother in public will make him any safer. I would think the opposite. Not that I care much for Theon or the Ironborn anyway... In the books I did care for Asha, but this Yara... not so much...

Haha that's exactly how I feel about Asha in the books, I loved her, but I hate this Yara character.

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There is no Riverrun in the show so there is no plot reason for Tywin to go in one direction just to turn around, and there isn't time for him to do it either. There is a leaked casting video for season 3 where

Edmure is getting dressed down like he does in the book, but it's for holding up The Mountain not Tywin. So it's going to happen later in a slightly different way, as part of introducing the Tullys

Robb is still at the Crag. So it would make sense that Tywin would head that way and then turn around when word of KL arrived. However I am not sure the Crag has been associated in the show with a threat to Casterly Rock. In fact I cant recall if the reason for the march on the Crag was given on TV. Now I am confused.

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Tywin doesn't get there right when Stannis does, if you remember there was some fighting for awhile before Tywin gets there, so he might have more than a day to get there.

And I am not suggesting that he "lies" to his war Generals, he might have thought that Robb was closer than he is, Robb might have move further away, so they deside to head to Kings Landing. There are all sorts of things that could happen, in order for Tywin to show up in King's Landing.

However, even if he does not, which I highly freaking doubt, how is that going to some how stop the entire Red Wedding??? Just because Tywin marches against Robb, that does not mean he kills Robb. For all we know, Tywin could fight some of Robb's army, and Robb can be with the other part, or Robb could make Tywin retreat etc etc.

Watch that scene again, Tywin never says he is marching against Robb. He says he wants to get a march in before Robb knows what he is doing. He doesn't say what direction that march is going to be in. It's a misdirection for the non-book-readers so he can turn up at KL by surprise.

I just rewatched it. I can see where you have some points here. They were just setting it up with him seeming to come to the conclusion that he was marching on Robb. They did it quite heavy handed I think though unless some scouts show up right as Tywin is leaving Harranhal to say Robb is falling back to Riverrun. I guess my biggest problem was the scene was set with his small council. I wish they could have maybe said it with another character other than Tywin with the Generals. I think the scene with Arya telling J'quen Hagar that Tywin is leaving and going to march on her brother easily got the point across. I'll give them credit it pissed me off and they got me even though I new the story. Probably more so because I new the story.

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Robb is still at the Crag. So it would make sense that Tywin would head that way and then turn around when word of KL arrived. However I am not sure the Crag has been associated in the show with a threat to Casterly Rock. In fact I cant recall if the reason for the march on the Crag was given on TV. Now I am confused.

Tywin says that Stannis is two days away from KL. He also says that Robb is too close to Casterly Rock. We march tonight. Basically like that.

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She does it publicly because that's how they do things. She still wants to ensure he knows she is his superior, but she wants him to make it as an Ironborn. She has given him good advice, just not in a way where Theon is willing to listen to it. Besides, she has to make it clear she tried to get him to leave so she doesn't get blamed for it when he dies. She likely doesn't know their father will react to that.

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I don't understand what the big fuss is about. They are condensing the books a bit for the tv show. In the books, Tywin leaves Harrenhal to fight Robb, stuff happens, then he shows up at Kings Landing at the very last minute and saves the day. To me, they are setting it up just like the books did, they are condensing it. In the book Tywin leaves a long time before and Arya then frees the Northmen with the weasel soup, then eventually escapes. Tywin fights with Edmure and the Riverrun men, then gets word about Kingslanding and heads there. It's the same basic structure here..... Just condensed for Tv. There is room in the next episode for Tywin to get some message and turn to Kingslanding in the last minute, or like other people have said, I think it is likely that it is his plan all along to march for Kingslanding and the wording is misleading to the audience viewer so that we won't expect them to come to Kingslanding and save the day at the last minute. Only have a couple days, then we will find out.

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I don't understand what the big fuss is about. They are condensing the books a bit for the tv show. In the books, Tywin leaves Harrenhal to fight Robb, stuff happens, then he shows up at Kings Landing at the very last minute and saves the day. To me, they are setting it up just like the books did, they are condensing it. In the book Tywin leaves a long time before and Arya then frees the Northmen with the weasel soup, then eventually escapes. Tywin fights with Edmure and the Riverrun men, then gets word about Kingslanding and heads there. It's the same basic structure here..... Just condensed for Tv. There is room in the next episode for Tywin to get some message and turn to Kingslanding in the last minute, or like other people have said, I think it is likely that it is his plan all along to march for Kingslanding and the wording is misleading to the audience viewer so that we won't expect them to come to Kingslanding and save the day at the last minute. Only have a couple days, then we will find out.

That'ls exactly what I was saying to. It all makes sense to me.

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Another reason that the HBO series can't be 3 seasons only is that it would end in media res. That idea is almost as crackpot as Catelyn releasing Jaime.

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I apologize if this question has been asked and answered earlier in this thread (so many pages!), but a friend at work asked how Roz ended up with a Lannister necklace in this last episode, and I had no idea, hadn't even thought of that before. :dunno:

It was the necklace, it seems, that made Cercei think that she was Tyrion's whore. Did someone 'plant' it on Roz, was Cercei lying, what? what? If anyone knows or has thoughts on it, I'd appreciate hearing from you. THANKS!

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I apologize if this question has been asked and answered earlier in this thread (so many pages!), but a friend at work asked how Roz ended up with a Lannister necklace in this last episode, and I had no idea, hadn't even thought of that before. :dunno:

It was the necklace, it seems, that made Cercei think that she was Tyrion's whore. Did someone 'plant' it on Roz, was Cercei lying, what? what? If anyone knows or has thoughts on it, I'd appreciate hearing from you. THANKS!

When Tyrion came back from the Wall, he stopped by Winterfell and Robb was an ass to him, so he stayed in an Inn, and he had a few tumbles with Ros. That's when he gave her the Lannister lion necklace. Theon see's the necklace an episode or two later, and he gets all jealous and shit. It's the episode where you see Theon's dick, him and Ros are both fully naked having sex and talking about stuff.

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@Arbor Gold I'm Sold

See you don't think Arya's answers were convincing enough, but I though they were very clever, clever enough to fool Tywin. Especially because he. does. not. know. Arya. is. missing.

Nobody ever told him. When Tyrion got to KL it was a shock to him, and he never told Tywin, because he wanted to try and find her first, and of he can't, then he can always put the blame on Cersei for letting her get away. That's why it makes sense he didn't think she was Arya, because in Tywin's mind, he would think that of she was missing, somebody would tell him. It's a perfect storm really, for why he does not know it was here. Again, her answers were also very convincing in my opinion.

The show makes it pretty clear that Tywin is not fooled by her disguise. While I could accept that he doesn't learn that Arya's missing(Sending such a message per raven could be dangerous if it is interrupted, so they would only send a raven if they deem it necessary).

However, it makes no sense that Tywin would not try to find out which family she is from. Even if she was "just" a Karstark, Umber, or whatever, it could potentially lead to Robb losing up to a few thousand soldiers.

On top of that, there aren't exactly many highborn northern girls running around in the south, so just that should make Tywin very suspicious...

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Why would Tywin leave a child with the Mountain? Guess he forgot what happened last time he did that. :dunno:

Edited by Lebronn Jamie

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