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Xray the Enforcer

[Book Spoilers] EP 208 Discussion Mk. II

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I thought this was a weak episode even though I knew they were trying to set things up for the final two episodes. It did have some good scenes; Tyrion/Cersei, Tyrion/Varys and Theon was played really well. I'm not a fan of the Robb/"first aid chick" scenes (although I got to see boobies). Who gives a flying toss about Volantis?

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Oh, and one little nitpit: they used the word "idiot" like 4 times this episode. If I remember correctly this is a fairly recent use of the word. It would not have been used in that context back then. They should have used words like "fool" or "simpleton" etc. ok I'm done for now. :)

A quote from wiki: [idiot's] modern meaning and form dates back to Middle English around the year 1300, from the Old French idiote ("uneducated or ignorant person").

Edited by The Wood of the Morning

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If Jaime were useless as a hostage he should have been killed. Sacrificing Brienne and betraying Robb by fomenting dissension among his bannerman were the only possible results of Catelyn's actions. Why is everyone's panties in a bunch about Qhorin? I see the series returning to the gist of the book within the next two episodes by a duel between Qhorin and Jon. No harm, no foul.

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A quote from wiki: [idiot's] modern meaning and form dates back to Middle English around the year 1300, from the Old French idiote ("uneducated or ignorant person").

There was another word that was used 3? times in the episode in different venues. Cant you guess what it was?

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If Jaime were useless as a hostage he should have been killed. Sacrificing Brienne and betraying Robb by fomenting dissension among his bannerman were the only possible results of Catelyn's actions.

You forget that the Lannisters had a bunch of hostages of their own, namely Sansa and Arya Stark (at least that's what they keep telling everyone). With both daughters the Lannisters could kill one in retaliation for Jaime and still have their claim on WF through the other. Since Robb and Cat think the Lannisters have both daughters killing Jaime would have been completely stupid. And that's why he's such a useless hostage. He can't be exchanged, he can't be killed, he can't be freed. Basically you can do nothing with him except put him in a cell and let him rot until the end of the war or until the Lannisters lose their own hostages. Exchanging Jaime was the smart thing to do, but since the "legal" way of doing it was blocked to Cat the only recourse she had was to go behind everyone's back and do it herself.

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I forget nothing. The Lannisters had already given their answer about honorable actions by lopping off Ned's Head. One doesn't make a trade by giving the other side what they want and then hope for the best. It made no sense in the book. It made no sense in the series.

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I forget nothing. The Lannisters had already given their answer about honorable actions by lopping off Ned's Head. One doesn't make a trade by giving the other side what they want and then hope for the best. It made no sense in the book. It made no sense in the series.

Cat wouldn't have needed to send Jaime with a guard of 2 if Robb had had the sense to make the exchange in the first place.

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Not necessarily. You are looking at things from a 21st century POV where communication is instant. Heck, some kids these days look totally dumbfounded at the idea that people actually wrote physical letters! In the world of Westeros, urgent communication is by raven, and those are only used for essential matters, not the ordinary chit chat. Ordinary letters between people can take weeks or months to arrive (and sometimes don't arrive at all) and they didn't have newspapers or any other form of public information other than gossip. Nor do I see Robert as the sort of person who regularly wrote 'happy family catch up' letters even to his best friend Ned! I don't therefore find it at all strange in the context of Westeros that Catelyn didn't know about a child of Cersei's who died very young. And even if Ned had happened to mention it to her in passing, it would not the sort of detail that Cat wouldhave bothered to remember.

Anyway, that aspect of the Cat/Cersei conversation was such a very minor point, it hardly qualifies as 'sloppy writing'.

I don't think it's crazy at all, that Catelyn did not know about Cersei's baby that died. Back then babies did not often survive infancy, that's why the Wildlings don't even name them till they are two years old. A lot of babies would be stillborn also, so it makes sense that Cersei would not send out a raven to each House of Westeros every time the damn thing kicked. Also, the North is not like the South, they don't care as much for gossip, gossip is biggest at Court, and the North especially doesn't care about Southeron gossip.

I always got the impression that Ned and Robert didn't really talk much after the Greyjoy Rebellion, that's why Ned didn't even recognize his old friend, after not seeing him for so long, Ned had no idea Robert changed so much. Robert was also never the one to care that much when Cersei had a baby. Just like Cersei said, every time she would go into labor, Robert would go hunting. So obviously it was not a big thing for him. Having a baby for like that, can also be seen by some as a "curse from the gods", so I can see why it isn't something they would want to publicize(similar to how some peoplw thought Tyrion being born a dwarf was a punishment from the gods for Tywin).

And like others have said, long distance communication is not perfect in this world, and a lot of the communication gets stopped at the Neck.

So in conclusion, I would not call that poor writing at all, I would call it poor thinking, but not on the writers part. Seriously, there are things that have been very poor writing, more than I like to think about, but this is not one of them.

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Re-watched the episode last night - still enjoyed it. But a little concession to the book purists....did anyone notice who Cersei ordered to 'bring in the whore'? I must admit, I missed it first time round, but she said 'Ser Mandon'. Yep, Ser Mandon Moore - so we may well see him trying to off Tyrion at the Blackwater after all.

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Finally got a chance to see the episode - like every other episode, some great stuff and some weak stuff:

the weak:

- we've seen Tyrion & Ros on screen together once, why would there be any hint at Ros being his whore, especially after he sent her to another man? They played it out perfectly - all three were great in the part they did,

- Robb/Talissa - I still believe the boys moment of weakness/man's attempt at honor fit better with the way Ned Starks son was raised rather than the courtship & intentional breaking of his word to Frey. Course, since I haven't seen a casting for Edmure Tully, maybe the RW doesn't exist here and they take it in a much different direction. Seeing Richard Madden act has been a plus, but I don't like that storyline.

Arya/Tywin/Jaqen - We know that Arya recognizes Tywin as a main threat, why - after she was staring at his neck with a knife - didn't she go to Jaqen then and give him Tywins name? Glad they got to her giving him his own name, but then the way they escaped was very weak.

The Crypts - whether or not people knew the boys were alive, revealing them in the crypts with Osha somehow sneaking into them with more food was weakly done. Let that build - where are they, are they safe? It's not like we haven't had other characters disappear for a while - since these are in hiding it would have made sense.

Jon/Quorin/Wildlings - in the end, no Squire Dalbridge which to me is a loss. Great counterpoint to Jons running from the NW previously that this man was ready to die for his brothers without blinking. One of the most heroic points in the story gone. And the change that Quorin wasn't backed into a corner to make a decision but captured.

The good:

- in general, the acting is just superb

- Theon/Yara/WF - I liked that they added in the comments she made about childhood and how they both viewed their parents

- Tyrion/Varys - not sure these two could have a bad scene if they tried.

- Tyrion/Cersei - same

- Tyrion/Bronn - rinse/repeat.

- Brienne/Jaime - liking how they start this off, hopefully they can keep the animosity up

- Robb/Catelyn - this scene actually makes the falling for Talissa even harder to swallow; he does his duty here even though it is difficult

- Joffrey - man what a little disconnected from reality shit he is. But done so well.

- Stannis/Davos - little bit of background, little bit of personality, lots of enjoyment.

- dragonglass - "Maesters called it obsidian". Let's go Sam the Slayer!

Lots of build up...two episodes left. Since there has been so much talk about it, I hope they do the battle well - which from the preview it looks like they have - but I hope we get progress on some of the other story lines as well and not just KL.

Edited by Šedý vlk2375

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I forget nothing. The Lannisters had already given their answer about honorable actions by lopping off Ned's Head. One doesn't make a trade by giving the other side what they want and then hope for the best. It made no sense in the book. It made no sense in the series.

Tyrion had nothing to do with Ned's beheading, and she knows that much. She's not trusting the honor of Jaime in either the book or HBOGoT; She's trusting in Tyrion's honor because, in the book, he swore, in front of the entire court while sitting the Iron Throne, to return the girls unharmed, in time, if Jaime was returned in like manner to KL, and on HBO, returned Ned's bones to Catelyn as a measure/vow to support his intention to do the same.

And a hostage who cannot be killed, maimed, released or traded isn't so much a valuable hostage as an albatross.

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Marrying someone other than a female member of the Frey clan seems to do the trick. Sending Theon to the Iron Islands is a suitable substitute. Putting cousin Alton in the same cage as The Kingslayer and providing only one guard which just happens to be the son of one of your bannermen who has already suffered the loss of another son will work in a pinch. Leaving camp to negotiate a surrender, but asking an unmarried nurse to accompany you, looks bad, is bad, and might just lead your allies to think you have failed to keep your eye on the ball, so thinking with your balls would also fall under harebrained if you find the previous options less to your liking.

Good points all. Book Robb was impulsive and foolish wrt Jeyne, which I actually found understandable and tragic in the books in its context, but don't even get me started re: Theon, which I didn't find nearly as understandable. Jury's still out in my mind on whether or not I like the fact that HBO made it Theon's idea to go negotiate with Balon (though that could be how it went down in the books, as I believe all we know of it is Robb telling Catelyn his plans, but not their genesis). Unfortunately, though, HBO made Robb even dumber, for several of the reasons you list, which sucks because he was so kickass at the beginning of the season, before all his scenes devolved into romantic mush.

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Finally got a chance to see the episode - like every other episode, some great stuff and some weak stuff: the weak: - we've seen Tyrion & Ros on screen together once, why would there be any hint at Ros being his whore, especially after he sent her to another man? They played it out perfectly - all three were great in the part they did, -

She was wearing a Lannister necklace. Likely something Tyrion had set up (perhaps in return for staying quiet about Joffery)

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Re-watched the episode last night - still enjoyed it. But a little concession to the book purists....did anyone notice who Cersei ordered to 'bring in the whore'? I must admit, I missed it first time round, but she said 'Ser Mandon'. Yep, Ser Mandon Moore - so we may well see him trying to off Tyrion at the Blackwater after all.

I think they are going to use Merynt Trant to do this. Moore was not cast, that was clearly an extra with a helmet on. Trant however, in this series, is clearly not a big fan of Tyrion, and is in Joffrey/Cersei's pocket.

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She was wearing a Lannister necklace. Likely something Tyrion had set up (perhaps in return for staying quiet about Joffery)

Thought that was given to her back in s1/ep 1.The thing that made Alayaya believable was that there were multiple interactions between them that led to the belief she was special - this was a stretch considering Tyrion sent her to Joffrey. Given who we have seen it had to be Ros due to a lack of options, but the way they connected it was weak.

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Re: why Ros was thought to be Tyrion's whore, that necklace bit comes from last season....remember Theon's infamous full-frontal scene with Ros in which Tyrion was discussed...Theon notices the lion necklace and gets pissed and Ros talks about how some of her clients pay better than others...

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in the end, no Squire Dalbridge which to me is a loss. Great counterpoint to Jons running from the NW previously that this man was ready to die for his brothers without blinking. One of the most heroic points in the story gone.

But which king did he squire for? Was it a Blackfyre?

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