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Xray the Enforcer

[Book Spoilers] EP 208 Discussion Mk. II

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Cersei was lying to Cat about the baby!!!! She would never have let Robert's child go full term without choking down some moon tea. It's clear from her recollection of their wedding night when he called her Lyana that she despised him from the start.. especially when she had been fucking Jaime earlier that day.

She just told Cat that story to seem sympathetic to Bran's accident when she clearly wasn't.

Edited by JonTargaryenW/Viserion4WIN

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Oh ok, I forgot that part, so it wasn't intentional by Tyrion, just dumb luck.

It will definitely be Trant who tries to kill Tyrion. He is the only Kinsguard we've met and they established he and Tyrion don't get along.

Did they send a KG with Myrcella? I would not miss that boring storyline being cut from season 4...

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Oh ok, I forgot that part, so it wasn't intentional by Tyrion, just dumb luck. It will definitely be Trant who tries to kill Tyrion. He is the only Kinsguard we've met and they established he and Tyrion don't get along. Did they send a KG with Myrcella? I would not miss that boring storyline being cut from season 4...

What's boring about Areo Hotah? Guy is a badass. And as long as they cast someone hot as Arianne Martell, the Dorne storyline should be great. I won't mind watching Oakheart blindly charge Martell's men after they've been caught and get cut down to size by Hotah.

My guess who didn't make season 2 but they will cast in season 3:

-Barriston (he'll be back for sure)

-Dondarrion and the Brotherhood (they've been dropping hints all season)

-Frey's including Black Walder and others

-Vargo Hoat and the Mummers (who is going to cut Jaime's hand off?)

-Mance Rayder

-Ramsay Snow

-The Kettleblacks

-The Reeds (not sure but maybe - depends on how they deal with the split up of Bran and Rickon at the end of this season)

That's a boatload of new characters. You can see why some characters simply can't get cast when they appear in the books, it's hard enough to follow as it is for non-book readers.....

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Tyrion had nothing to do with Ned's beheading, and she knows that much. She's not trusting the honor of Jaime in either the book or HBOGoT; She's trusting in Tyrion's honor because, in the book, he swore, in front of the entire court while sitting the Iron Throne, to return the girls unharmed, in time, if Jaime was returned in like manner to KL, and on HBO, returned Ned's bones to Catelyn as a measure/vow to support his intention to do the same. And a hostage who cannot be killed, maimed, released or traded isn't so much a valuable hostage as an albatross.

Catelyn knows nothing. She doesn't even know if either of her daughters is alive or held by the Lannisters. We know that Arya isnt even there. She also doesn't know who is in charge in King's Landing. When Cersei and Good Ole Jeff were both there, the Starks took it in the neck. How is she supposed to know that Tyrion is in charge? Is she ready to trust Littlefinger, again? Hah! And as far as a beheading or two, is Tyrion really in charge? The best that can be said about Catelyn's act is that she is unhinged. In the book her being unhinged is better motivated by hearing the news of the "deaths" of Bran/Rickon. Even so she is a poor medieval Lady to let the deaths of a few children drive her to self-destructive acts.

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Cersei was lying to Cat about the baby!!!! She would never have let Robert's child go full term without choking down some moon tea. It's clear from her recollection of their wedding night when he called her Lyana that she despised him from the start.. especially when she had been fucking Jaime earlier that day. She just told Cat that story to seem sympathetic to Bran's accident when she clearly wasn't.

Except that she clearly mentions it to Robert as well. Something like "after our first boy died". I know Robert isn't the brightest bulb in the shed but I think even he'd notice if Cersei was suddenly inventing babies that never existed.

Catelyn knows nothing. She doesn't even know if either of her daughters is alive or held by the Lannisters. We know that Arya isnt even there. She also doesn't know who is in charge in King's Landing. When Cersei and Good Ole Jeff were both there, the Starks took it in the neck. How is she supposed to know that Tyrion is in charge? Is she ready to trust Littlefinger, again? Hah! And as far as a beheading or two, is Tyrion really in charge? The best that can be said about Catelyn's act is that she is unhinged. In the book her being unhinged is better motivated by hearing the news of the "deaths" of Bran/Rickon. Even so she is a poor medieval Lady to let the deaths of a few children drive her to self-destructive acts.

Tyrion is the one who responded to Robb's peace terms and ordered that Ned's bones be returned to the North. He's the one who sent the Lannister guard to "escort" Cleos Frey back to Riverrun. That seems a good indication that he's got some weight in the decision-making process of KL. In any case what's the alternative ? Let Jaime rot in his cell forever instead of trying to use him to make a terrible situation less so ? Great plan.

Edited by Evamitchelle

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Except that she clearly mentions it to Robert as well. Something like "after our first boy died". I know Robert isn't the brightest bulb in the shed but I think even he'd notice if Cersei was suddenly inventing babies that never existed.

She also describes him to Cat as having black hair, which, though minor, to me gives it a bit of validity. If she were calculatingly thinking it up I think baby boy'd be blonde like his half-sibs. Thin, I know, and yet...

More to next week... Hoping for the Three Whores (trebuchets/catapults) to make an appearance slinging wildfire(sp?).

The summary for next week's episode includes: "Joffrey doles out rewards to his subjects." I interpreted that as a description of the bodies from the three whores interlude. But those weren't really flung at his people, so perhaps not.

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i haven't seen anyone else mention this so maybe i picked it up wrong, but wasn't everyone in Quorin's squad (apart from the Halfhand of course) killed while looking for Jon, who was chasing Yrgritte around the countryside?

Jon is 100% responsible for their deaths, whereas in the book they all died heroically while covering the retreat to the Fist.

for me, this makes a big difference to Jon's character.

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In any case what's the alternative ? Let Jaime rot in his cell forever instead of trying to use him to make a terrible situation less so ? Great plan.

Yes. You've nailed it here. Catelyn has no idea who's really in charge in King's Landing. She has no idea where her daughter's are, or even if they are alive. So why not release a deadly enemy during a war, on the hope that perhaps any of those wishful things are true. A brilliancy!

Jon was not responsible for the deaths of Qhorin's squad. They are supposed to be rangers on a mission. If they lost their lives ineffectually looking for Jon that is hardly his responsibilty. In the book they lost their lives by being caught by the wildlings depite their elite ranger status. Same same. Jon is pretty much a raw youth in both book and series. I don't think he's substantially worse off in either.

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Oh ok, I forgot that part, so it wasn't intentional by Tyrion, just dumb luck. It will definitely be Trant who tries to kill Tyrion. He is the only Kinsguard we've met and they established he and Tyrion don't get along. Did they send a KG with Myrcella? I would not miss that boring storyline being cut from season 4...

yes, there is a KG standing behind Myrcella as she is being taken away.

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Cersei was lying to Cat about the baby!!!! She would never have let Robert's child go full term without choking down some moon tea.

Given that she mentioned the baby in front of Robert I think she was telling the truth to Catelyn. Moreover I don't think there has been anything in the series to indicate the ready availability of abortifascients.

What's boring about Areo Hotah? Guy is a badass.

I'm a huge fan of Areo, but what makes him interesting is his internal monologue - despite the obvious terror everyone holds him in, he's got strong feelings of affection and love for most of the Martell family, which you wouldn't necessarily guess from his outward actions. On screen we will only see the outward actions, which for Hotah mostly involve standing silently behind Doran and sharpening his axe.

My guess who didn't make season 2 but they will cast in season 3: -Barriston (he'll be back for sure) -Dondarrion and the Brotherhood (they've been dropping hints all season) -Frey's including Black Walder and others -Vargo Hoat and the Mummers (who is going to cut Jaime's hand off?) -Mance Rayder -Ramsay Snow -The Kettleblacks -The Reeds (not sure but maybe - depends on how they deal with the split up of Bran and Rickon at the end of this season) That's a boatload of new characters. You can see why some characters simply can't get cast when they appear in the books, it's hard enough to follow as it is for non-book readers.....

I don't think we'll see the Reeds - their narrative function will be served by Osha. The time to introduce the young Freys seems to have passed as well. The mummers can be replaced by any random group of thugs, but I'd prefer to see them (how great would they look on camera?). The Kettleblacks are exactly the kind of tertiary character the series has cut.

The best that can be said about Catelyn's act is that she is unhinged. In the book her being unhinged is better motivated by hearing the news of the "deaths" of Bran/Rickon. Even so she is a poor medieval Lady to let the deaths of a few children drive her to self-destructive acts.

I strongly disagree. I thought Jaime's release made more sense in the series than the books. Jaime was in all likelihood not going to live out the night. Some drunken Karstarks were going to try and kill him, and the other northerners were not going to risk their lives defending Jaime Lannister. Once Jaime was killed in Stark custody that would probably result in the execution of her daughters, who were being kept alive primarily to ensure Jaime's safety.

From Cat's perspective she had two choices: watch Jaime die, which probably meant the death of her girls, or release him and hope for the best.

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A quote from wiki: [idiot's] modern meaning and form dates back to Middle English around the year 1300, from the Old French idiote ("uneducated or ignorant person").

Well, the books are set in the middle ages roughly. I know this is an imaginary world, but wiki puts the medieval time period between the 5th to 15th centuries, depending. according to weapons of the time : (from wiki)

Gunpowder weapons

Cannon (1324)

Cannons are first recorded in Europe at the siege of Metz in 1324. In 1350 Petrarch wrote "these instruments which discharge balls of metal with most tremendous noise and flashes of fire...were a few years ago very rare and were viewed with greatest astonishment and admiration, but now they are become as common and familiar as any other kinds of arms."[1]]]

Volley gun

See Ribauldequin.

Corned gunpowder (14th, late)

First practiced in Western Europe, corning the black powder allowed for more powerful and faster ignition of cannon. Also facilitated storage and transportation to operational area, thus constituting a crucial step in the evolution of gunpowder warfare.

180px-Mons_Meg%2C_Medieval_Bombard%2C_Edinburgh%2C_Scotland._Pic_01.jpg

magnify-clip.pngScottish bombard Mons Meg

Supergun (14th, late)

Extant examples include the wrought-iron Pumhart von Steyr, Dulle Griet and Mons Meg as well as the cast-bronze Faule Mette and Faule Grete (all 15th century).

[edit] Mechanical artillery

Counterweight trebuchet (12th)

Powered solely by the force of gravity, these catapults revolutionized medieval siege warfare and construction of fortifications by hurling huge stones unprecedented distances. Originating somewhere in the eastern Mediterranean basin, counterweight trebuchets were introduced in the Crusader states by the 1120s, Byzantium by the 1130s and in the Latin West by the second half of the century.[33]

[edit] Missile weapons

Longbow with massed, disciplined archery (13th)

Having a high rate of fire and penetration power, the longbow contributed to the eventual demise of the medieval knight class. Used particularly by the English to great effect against the French cavalry during the Hundred Years' War (1337–1453).

Steel crossbow (14th, late)

European innovation. Came with several different cocking aids to enhance draw power, making the weapons also the first hand-held mechanical crossbows.

So I would guess the world of the Song of Ice and Fire is set roughly between 1200-1400 maybe. We don't have any cannons or gunpowder which was seen later in the middle ages, but we have trebuchets, which were seen about 1200. Not to say that Martin didn't pick and chose what elements he wanted in his story. He didn't set it in a definate time setting compared to our real history. I still say that it is a stretch that the term "idiot" would be used in it's modern meaning. I don't recall Martin ever using it in his books. If someone has a kindle version they could search his text. I may be wrong, but I feel the word should not have been used. It stuck out for me.

Thanks ;)

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. Once Jaime was killed in Stark custody that would probably result in the execution of her daughters, who were being kept alive primarily to ensure Jaime's safety. From Cat's perspective she had two choices: watch Jaime die, which probably meant the death of her girls, or release him and hope for the best.

Since Catelyn has no idea where or in what condition her daughters are in, and Catelyn has no idea who is in charge at King's Landing, releasing Jaime Lannister had three definite results and one completely speculative result:

1. She returned their most deadly one-on-one combatant to the enemy during the war

2. She ensured dissension within her oldest son and liege lord's camp

3. She took Brienne, one of the best and loyalest warriors out of action

and then the speculation

4. One or more of her daughters is alive and one or more of her daughters will be released by the good hearts at Kings Landing.

Just think about this. If you were banking your hopes on Tyrion's good feelings to counteract the evil of Jeff and Cersei, when Jaime returned to King's Landing he would be an ally of Cersei, as always, and tip the balance in the favor of the bad Lannisters.

She might as well release Jaime "hoping" that he would be moved by that act of kindness and magnamity and suddenly become the compassionate conservative we knew lurked beneath the facade of a merciless killer of 10 year olds.

Reedickless is about the most one can say for that "reasoning."

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All in all, I thought this was a great episode. I understand what they are doing with Talisa... I only wonder why they had to change her name and backstory, but oh well, not a big deal. I agree Catelyn letting the Kingslayer loose looses sympathy because she hadn't gotten word of Bran and Rickon yet, and she still believed that Arya was alive. My biggest complaint is how they changed Arya's storyline. In the books she was this little ninja wild girl with a strong spirit. We are only seeing little glimpses of her spirit now. She is made to be a little helpless girl who goes running to Jaqen when she needs help. She isn't getting her hands dirty at all. They haven't shown her practising with her stick, heck, they have only shown her "prayer" once. I understand they want to condense and simplify the storyline, but I was really disappointed that they cut the whole part about her and the weaselsoup and freeing the northmen who end up betraying and killing her brother and mother. That was a huge ironic twist, out of the frying pan and into the fire. A lot of people like the Tywin/Arya interactions, but i didn't. I understand why they did it, but still didn't like it. And they need to show what a monster the Mountain is! Right now he is just some brute, but not very intimidating. :( Oh, and one little nitpit: they used the word "idiot" like 4 times this episode. If I remember correctly this is a fairly recent use of the word. It would not have been used in that context back then. They should have used words like "fool" or "simpleton" etc. ok I'm done for now. :)

As much as I want to see more Arya, one of the great elements in the development of her character is when she is forced to be a "mouse" in Harrenhall because to be otherwise would mean her death. She has a lot of internal dialogue about no longer being a wolf and I think D&D have portrayed that through her skulking in corners and having little power. She still has a backbone of iron but she has to hide it. Jaqen is the only connection she has to power and I would have to say, she uses that. The scene where she names him gave me chills. All of their interactions together are beautifully done.

In my humblest of opinions, I think the portrayal of Arya is spot on, although we don't get some of her more rebellious thoughts spelled out for us. I really was sad that weasel soup didn't make an appearance, but since Weasel was never introduced as part of Yoren & co. and Arya didn't go through her series of fake names etc. that wouldn't have packed quite the same punch in the show.

"A girl has no honor."

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. "A girl has no honor."

Agreed, its well done. The introduction of the convo between Arya and Tywin is another nice touch of the HBO team. The only problem there is that she went too far at times, and Tywin should have gotten a lot more suspicious than he did listening to her words.

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Agreed, its well done. The introduction of the convo between Arya and Tywin is another nice touch of the HBO team. The only problem there is that she went too far at times, and Tywin should have gotten a lot more suspicious than he did listening to her words.

Definitely agree. She was asking to get slapped a few times there, although I think it was a nice touch when they added that Tywin said Arya reminded him of Cersei. I know a lot of people think that Twin was too "soft" in these episodes, but I like what another poster said about him being "friendly" to her and then going off and basically passing her on to the mountain like she was nothing. That's what makes Tywin who he is. His ability to switch the so-called "niceness" off and on like that is, what I think, makes him so chilling. I absolutely cannot wait until his reunions with Jaime. Those were some serious love-to-hate-Tywin interactions. But I digress...

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I absolutely cannot wait until his reunions with Jaime. Those were some serious love-to-hate-Tywin interactions. But I digress...

Yes, indeed. The Lannister family reunion is a Thankgiving not to be missed. How many years on HBO before Tyrion says "tata" to Dad?

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Yes, indeed. The Lannister family reunion is a Thankgiving not to be missed. How many years on HBO before Tyrion says "tata" to Dad?

far too many, sadly. Since one of my favorite lines was cut from this season, I'm really hoping someone says "Lord Tywin did not, in the end, shit gold." Pure literarly genius.

and back to the topic of this week's episode before I rant too much about Ser Kingslayer...

I actually felt like Tyrion was somewhat weak in this episode... (Tyrion--NOT Peter). After so much anticipation of "your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth" I thought that scene was weak. Lately, IMHO, the Cersei/Tyrion scenes have been somewhat lackluster...

I don't want to bash Lena's acting but I'm having a hard time buying her as Cersei. Maybe it's because we dont have her POV like we do in the books (or as much---the books keep blending for me even after my re-read). Or maybe it's just me being picky.

My one problem with the disappearance of Tyrion's chain is that I feel like we havent seen much of his cunning lately, although with the end of this episode that's likely to all change.

Tyrion is and has been one of my favorite characters, which is why I'm somewhat disappointed with him in the show of late. But it's also hard to get a real fix on anyone the way they have to fit so much into every episode.

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Cersei was lying to Cat about the baby!!!! She would never have let Robert's child go full term without choking down some moon tea. It's clear from her recollection of their wedding night when he called her Lyana that she despised him from the start.. especially when she had been fucking Jaime earlier that day. She just told Cat that story to seem sympathetic to Bran's accident when she clearly wasn't.
From the books, you are correct, but in the TV series they changed that and Cersei did have a stillborn baby. Why this change, you ask? Because fuck you is why. ;)

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far too many, sadly. Since one of my favorite lines was cut from this season, I'm really hoping someone says "Lord Tywin did not, in the end, shit gold." Pure literarly genius. .

Shirley, that favorite line came after the Lannister family "reunion" and before Tyrion's road trip. Thus, is wasn't cut out of this season, but is still to come. Speaking of waiting years for the events we know are to happen--IMNSHO opiion the books can be significantly compressed. Once story lines are left out, the action of the main characters is somewhat repetitive and unnecessary and HBO could cut to the chase in several ways. Is HBO and the audience really prepared to continue for 5+ years?

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