Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Xray the Enforcer

[Book Spoilers] EP 208 Discussion Mk. II

Recommended Posts

The Red Wedding is no longer a part of the plans.

I think Mr. Martin would throw himself off of a building if the Red Wedding is cut.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jaime is INCREDIBLY important. More important than Sansa.

Asserting something doesn't make it true.

Even Robb agreed later than Sansa was a more powerful hostage politically than Jaime...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

legba11, on 22 May 2012 - 04:20 PM, said:

Similar to Catelyn not knowing that Cersei had a son who died last season. You can come up with explanations, but the simplest one is sloppy writing.

That was not sloppy writing. I interpreted it as Cersei lying about having a child with Robert to build rapport with Cat in order to distance herself from suspicion.

I actually like that scene, it shows what a scheming, evil bitch Cersei is

Edited by Jern Ormen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

legba11, on 22 May 2012 - 04:20 PM, said:

Similar to Catelyn not knowing that Cersei had a son who died last season. You can come up with explanations, but the simplest one is sloppy writing.

That was not sloppy writing. I interpreted it as Cersei lying about having a child with Robert to build rapport with Cat in order to distance herself from suspicion.

I actually like that scene, it shows what a scheming, evil bitch Cersei is

I don't think it was sloppy writing, but not for the same reasons as you. In the show, Cersei was not lying to Cat, because later there was that scene with just Cersei and Robert, and they talked about "their baby that died". It was when they also talked about how it was "their relationship that held the Kingdom together etc.

I just don't think it's crazy for Cat not to have known. Back then, babies often died in childbirth, or at an early age, so it makes sense that Cersei wouldn't send out a raven to every House in Westeros, everytime the baby kicked or something, because there is no certainty that the baby would live. There is also a big communication blocker at the Neck, and Northerners care less for gossip, especially Southron gossip, that's more of a Court thing. I always got the impression that there was little communication between Robert and Ned after the Greyjoy Rebellion, that's why Ned didn't even reccongnize the man Robert had turned into. So to me, it makes sense that Robert never told Ned, and that Catelyn never knew. A child dying like that can be seen as "a punishment from the gods" also, so I doubt Cersei wanted everyone to know about it.

To me, it's just not sloppy writing at all for Catelyn not to know, there are tons of examples of sloppy writing IMO, this just isn't one of them. There are many reasons that could explain Cat not knowing, but in the show, Cersei wasn't just lying to Catelyn.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I still have faith that they are trying to stay on the course of the books as much as possible. I see no reason why they would cut the Red Wedding. It was an integral part of the story. A huge catalyst. In my mind, I can't imagine them not showing the Red Wedding. That was one of the biggest scenes in the story so far. The producers have said they plan on 9 seasons total. I will be disappointed if it gets canceled before then. (so far I don't think it will) I believe the whole reason they had Arya be Tywin's cupbearer, is so they could cut out the whole running away after the attack on the Night's watch recruits, and eventually getting captured, then her life at Harrenhal, then her overthrowing the Lannister men and becoming Roose's cupbearer, then escaping. They just condensed it and put Roose still at Robb's side. They will either have Roose go with Robb and Catelyn to the wedding and go from there, or have him meet up there after some other task. They haven't showed Riverrun and the Tully's yet, but I'm sure they have time to do that....... OR, my own opinion.... they will possibly make The Red Wedding the wedding between Roose and Fat Walda... maybe? But I believe that the BlackFish will be important later on... so we will see how they will handle that. I do no see how Arya being Tywin's cupbearer is going to change the Red Wedding all that much. I agree that it was a little confusing, they meshed the two shadow babies. They probably should have put Renly in the castle or something.... but.... I don't think the average viewer really paid that much attention to that part. They just saw them go into some secret place, birth the shadow baby, and then they see the scene with Renly being killed by the shadow baby. It was a little fuddled to us who have read the books, but we understood what was going on none the less. It would have been more confusing to add the story about Edric Storm and the Castellan. And for Stannis' men all being on ship... it looks like they are doing a medieval version of the landing at Normandy ala Saving Private Ryan. I also had problems with Tywin having Arya so close. To me, I think Tywin is too clever, and would have found out who she was. To her credit she claimed to be from Barrowton, which is semi believable. I love the books, and I wish they could do the story exactly how it is written, but I understand a lot of the changes they have had to make. Some I don't understand. But I am still thoroughly enjoying the HBO series, and can't believe the series is almost over. :(
I'm saying they are making a very different Red Wedding since Tywin is marching against Robb and Stannis is a day away from KL. No Edmure Tully or Riverrun. Roose has sent Ramsey to free Winterfell so he has no reason to march north and use the bridge at the Twins. The fight between Robb and Tywin shouldn't take very long considering Robbs camp is south and East of the Crag and Tywin is marching at night from Harranhal. Roose is already with Robb etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What in seven hells makes you think that's going to happen? No I highly doubt they will pass up the Red Wedding, and D&D have said they are going for 9 seasons, that's their goal, I don't know how you see only 3. @ "Arbor Gold I'm Sold" How can you be so sure Tywin "knows" Arya is a highborn Northern girl? Obviously he assumed she was, but she gave a good answer for why she is educated, and why she knows how to talk properly("because her mother served Lady Dustin for many years, and her mother taught her how to speak"), so Tywin may not think that, like you think he does. Also, as far as Tywin knows, Arya is in the Capital with Cersei, he was never informed that she escaped, so why would he think his cupbearer is Arya Stark? Not to mention, it took a crazy turn of events for Arya to get to Harrenhall, nobody would ever guess that's where she is, because it's that unlikely. They would assume that if she were ever captured, she would say who she is, at the risk of being treated like a lowborn smallfolk. So in my opinion, if you think about it, it's not absurd at all, that Tywin doesn't know who she is.
I guess that was my point Tywin is an idiot. In the book he would have clearly known what was going on. Harrenhal wasn't that far from KL. Even Robb got messengers through. And Catlyn makes down almost to Storms End. Its kinda hard to believe that Tywin wouldn't be getting word constantly from KL. Not to mention that his character is all about knowing all the info about pretty much everybody in Westeros. In that situation he would have figured it out. He calls her out in the last episode and then after she gives the flimsey reasoning he tells her that "has anyone told you that your too smart for your own good." something like that anyway. So I guess that was just the reasoning that she fooled him as to being highborn...seems pretty shaky but i guess thats what they are going with.

So lets break it down like Tywin did: She eats lots of food--doubtful for a stonemasons daughter, she is very well read---doubtful for a stonemasons daughter and she is well spoken ----doubtful for a stonemasons daughter----you see where I'm going with this I think

Sounds like things are better at Lady Dustin's place than Casterly Rock if you believe all that.

Edited by Arbor Gold I'm Sold

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jaime is the one of the very few things in the world that Cersei, Tyrion and Tywin all care about, yuo bet your ass not having him to hold over their heads is gonna change the way the Lannisters are willing to fight this war.

Tywin has considered Jaime dead from the moment he was captured, which is why he names Tyrion as Hand of the King in his place. "You have given him up for lost, he thought. You bloody bastard, you think Jaime's good as dead so I'm all you have left." Jaime's capture did nothing to prevent Joffrey from beating Sansa, Cersei from forcing her into a marriage or Tywin from planning the Red Wedding. He's important to them as a person but not as a political asset, unlike Sansa.

Catelyn isn't exactly a nobody herself you know. killing her would have lost him the Freys in addition the entirety of Riverlands.

I don't think he should have killed her, but she gave him his blessing to punish her in any way he'd see fit and he didn't do anything because he was trying to cover his major blunder with Jeyne Westerling.

It's not a matter of this or no chance at all. for god's sake CATELYN HERSELF ADMITS THAT THEY ONLY WAY TO GET THE GIRLS BACK IS THROUGH WINNING THE WAR. She's the one that put Robb in this mindset in the first place, not anyone else. And she was right.

Um, I think that's from the show, not the books. In the books she asks Robb to trade for the girls several times : "If I must trade their four Lannisters for their two Starks, I will call that a bargain and thank the gods" in AGoT and "An offer had to be made - though a wiser man might have offered sweeter terms", "Cersei Lannister will never consent to trade your sisters for a pair of cousins. It's her brother she'll want, as you know full well","Girls are not important enough, are they ?" in ACoK.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think Mr. Martin would throw himself off of a building if the Red Wedding is cut.
It isn't cut there was context to go with that sentence there but the point is it has moved location,it has changed who is being married and who will be there... just those small things. I think it should be something to rival the moment the best they can

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I actually really enjoyed it. It tied up alot of the inconsistancies between the book and novel (Arya's victims being chosen differently, lack of an Alayaya character etc.) and kind of made me understand why the writers made changes. Glad to hear Ramsay Snow himself will likely make an appearance according the talk between Roose and Robb. Not really sure where they are going with this whole Peace Meeting at the Crag and Jaime being let go by Catelyn. (They might of taken these from the third book maybe? I'm yet to buy ASoS having just finished ACoK :)) Once again however I do wish the Reed children were being shown in this season I just find the whole concept of Crannogmen so awesome :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If you negotiated like Catelyn, you would concede my points now, and hope that I later conceded yours.
She did receive Ned's bones back as a small concession knowing how important it was to be buried in the crypts below Winterfell. This is very big because we all assume,well I hate to speak for everyone, I assumed that the old Starks new about why really the Wall was built and they didn't want to ever be turned. Edited by Arbor Gold I'm Sold

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

About the Red Wedding being cut I highly doubt it. I was watching a video conference from the shows creators at ComiCon or something like that and they said that theyre original goal for the series at the beginning of filming Season 1 was to reach an event they named "RW", not giving away spoilers to the people there. They then went on to announce that writing had begun for the second season.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As a strong and proud supporter of No Saggy Boobs, I loved the Talisa and Robb scene. The rest of the episode was great, the episodes have generally been better and better as the series has progressed.

The only real mistakes season 2 made in terms of storyline were probably Jaime's totally out-of-character cousin-head-smashing and Talisa being from Volantis. The Red Wedding was planned with consultation/sharing of knowledge with the Westerlings, remember? Talisa needs to be a Westerling.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well I think that could still be consistent with what I was thinking. A wedding with lots of death would fit that bill. Thats not really hitting on the specifics which to me anyway seem to have changed. Of course it has to be grande however its done.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The only real mistakes season 2 made in terms of storyline were probably Jaime's totally out-of-character cousin-head-smashing and Talisa being from Volantis. The Red Wedding was planned with consultation/sharing of knowledge with the Westerlings, remember? Talisa needs to be a Westerling.
Talisia could be a spy for Tywin. I really liked that part with Jaime I thought it fit his character perfectly. He doesn't even act as a father to his own kids. He stated how poorly imprisonment suited him. I think he would have killed pretty much anyone but Tyrion,Cersei and Tywin to break free. Edited by Arbor Gold I'm Sold

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Catelyn also said to Littlefinger that there is no way two girls are worth The KIngslayer

That's the show. There are various characters in the books who say that there's no way Jaime Lannister is worth 2 girls, but none of them are Cat. Cat is the one who qustions this line of thinking by telling Robb "Girls are not important enough, are they ?" right after he tells her that he would have exchanged Jaime for Ned, but that he won't do it for the girls.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm saying they are making a very different Red Wedding since Tywin is marching against Robb and Stannis is a day away from KL. No Edmure Tully or Riverrun. Roose has sent Ramsey to free Winterfell so he has no reason to march north and use the bridge at the Twins. The fight between Robb and Tywin shouldn't take very long considering Robbs camp is south and East of the Crag and Tywin is marching at night from Harranhal. Roose is already with Robb etc.

Even if Tywin does march against Robb, how would that effect the RW, and who's to say they don't get some urgent word from the scouts saying Stannis is closing in, so they turn for Kings Landing? The show making it seem like Tywin is marching against Robb is exactly what they want you to think, that way it's surprising when Tywin shows up to stop Stannis from taking Kings Landing. In the book it was also a shock, because last we heard Tywin was trying to get through the Tully lands to get to Robb, so we didn't expect him to show up to save the city. So it makes sense that the show is doing something similar.

As for Edmure Tully, it's been confirmed that he is being casted for season three, so that's not a problem. A Storm of Swords will be done in two seasons for the show, so the RW will most likely be the season finale for season three, or of they wanted to they could do it in season four, if they wanted more screen time with Robb and Cat, because they seem to like him.

No matter what though, it's not getting cut.

@Arbor Gold I'm Sold

See you don't think Arya's answers were convincing enough, but I though they were very clever, clever enough to fool Tywin. Especially because he. does. not. know. Arya. is. missing.

Nobody ever told him. When Tyrion got to KL it was a shock to him, and he never told Tywin, because he wanted to try and find her first, and of he can't, then he can always put the blame on Cersei for letting her get away. That's why it makes sense he didn't think she was Arya, because in Tywin's mind, he would think that of she was missing, somebody would tell him. It's a perfect storm really, for why he does not know it was here. Again, her answers were also very convincing in my opinion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So you think Tywin's whole army can reach Kings Landing in a day but gets no reporting that no one has seen Arya? I thought Tywin was talking about Jeffory must stand and fight and that Stannis was close but the Young Wolf was too close to Casterly Rock. You also are saying that Tywin just lies to his Generals at the small councel meeting for the Lannister party at Harranhal since that is when he said he was marching on Robb?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Tywin has considered Jaime dead from the moment he was captured, which is why he names Tyrion as Hand of the King in his place. "You have given him up for lost, he thought. You bloody bastard, you think Jaime's good as dead so I'm all you have left." Jaime's capture did nothing to prevent Joffrey from beating Sansa, Cersei from forcing her into a marriage or Tywin from planning the Red Wedding. He's important to them as a person but not as a political asset, unlike Sansa. I don't think he should have killed her, but she gave him his blessing to punish her in any way he'd see fit and he didn't do anything because he was trying to cover his major blunder with Jeyne Westerling. Um, I think that's from the show, not the books. In the books she asks Robb to trade for the girls several times : "If I must trade their four Lannisters for their two Starks, I will call that a bargain and thank the gods" in AGoT and "An offer had to be made - though a wiser man might have offered sweeter terms", "Cersei Lannister will never consent to trade your sisters for a pair of cousins. It's her brother she'll want, as you know full well","Girls are not important enough, are they ?" in ACoK.

A Game of Thrones:

Robb: "I had hoped... If you still held the Imp, a trade of hostages..."

Robb: "If we march... even if we win.... the Lannisters hold Sansa, and Father. They'll kill them, won't they?"

Catelyn: They want us to think so."

Robb: You mean they're lying?"

Catelyn: I do not know, Robb. What i do know is that you do not have a choice. If you go swear fealty, you will be allowed to leave. If you return to winterfell, your lords will lose respect. Our only true hope is defeating the enemy in the field. So long as you have power enough that they fear you, the hostages should be safe."

It isn't until Ned died that Catelyn lost all taste for sense and decided Robb should surrender. By then Robb had assumed the mindset she wanted him too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×