The Fall of the North

[KC_Accidental]

If the Wall could defend itself then there would be no need for the Nightswatch. They don't serve only to stop Wildlings getting in. The Wall needs to be manned. I also think the Wildlings could bypass the Wall all together. Bay of Ice? If the Others are defeated in the end and with the Wildlings already over the Wall then there is no need for the Wall. At the very least the series will end with the Wall destroyed. If the Others don't even make it past the Wall then what is the point of them? If they cannot even manage to get out their own territory then what threat are they? They HAVE to get into Westeros. As many others have pointed out the final battle or even A battle will likely take place on the Trident, as per Dany's dream. As to the Wall just doing some job itself perhaps its magic will be what saves Jon?

[LordDolorousEdd]

A plague of grey scale, perhaps?

I have this feeling that greyscale is somehow connected to the others like they can turn people with grey scale into more others or something rather then just wrights. the only thing i have to back this up is Val saying shereen is dead. I by no means claim this is a great theory it is more jut a feeling..

[pitakon]

just the north? nope my money is everything really will fall. amidst the ashes a new something should rise. this is what i believe happened millenia ago. and will happen again this time on some sort of a cycle.

[JayDubya]

I think the Wall has to fall - it is a hinge of the world, and it protects itself, but hinges can be broken, and nothing can protect itself forever, especially if the Horn is sounded.

Imagine the writing associated with the Wall collapsing. Cracks spreading, slowly at first, and then faster. Booming drums echoing through stone and dirt. The physical structuring holding.. quivering... until a first tiny shard fell, shattering against the top of the storehouse. And then another, and another, back and forth along its length. Larger peices followed, tumbling, rolling, shattering as they fell, spraying shards of ice out for hundreds of feet.

And with a noise that sounded like a sigh, the Wall slumped, and bowed out, looming out over Castle Black, shaking and shivering as it drenched the stone in a hailstorm of crystalline death.

And it held there, for one heartbeat. And then another. And then still a third. Melisandre looked at Dolorous Edd, who returned her glance, eyes wide, a faint flicker of hope.

*Pop* *Pop* *popopopop* - clicks and clacks ricocheted through the air, and with a massive, thunderous roar, the great Wall gave way, smashing Castle Black like a white-gloved fist, sending a cloud of ice billowing out across the flats, smothering them in a bone-chilling fog.

As the mist slowly settled, Melisandre could see white figures assembling at the top of the gap, shrieking in voices that sounded like crackling ice.

Or something like that, but a lot better :)

[Jabronius Maximus]

I share this same worry, like if the Others are to actually be a legit threat, they have to breach the Wall and wreak major damage. Which means the North will be the first thing they destroy. I think the only way the North survives is that somehow, the Others actually aren't setting out to cover the world in ice, and somehow the Starks are intimately connected with the Others...

[pitakon]

is there a text that specifically say that the others are the "evil" ones? what if the shadow is a bigger threat.

[jlk7e]

I'm not sure what's going to happen, but I'm fairly sure the Others can't just go around the Wall or fly over it. If they could, why aren't they already doing that?

[KC_Accidental]

Because they've been asleep for hundreds, if not thousands of years. I'm guessing they also need to wait for a really long winter. Maybe they cause it, who knows. They've certainly been quiet long enough for people to forget about them and speculate whether they exist or not. My only speculation about them bypassing the wall is if they froze the Bay of Ice and just walked over. Also to the west of the Wall there is a river that runs by it. They could easily cross that because the Wall stops at the river. Look at maps and apart from the mountains it looks fairly easy to cross. If you're a WW that is. I can't see them flying over or digging under. I do find it more likely though that the horn will be blown and the Wall destroyed.

[Malgarroth]

What if the Others are running from something too?

[JonBran]

A lot of exaggeration happens in Essos, tales get taller the more they travel. So the Others don't necessarily HAVE to reap the same amount of havoc as the tales tell it. If John truly is Azor Ahai, then he is already in prime position to defend the realm without too much damage spreading throughout Westeros. The ill preparations in many of the lands due to the War of The Five Kings will most likely be more devastating during winter then the Others.

[feardeathbywater]

I think that the means they will use to get past the wall will deplete the ranks of the wights at least. It all comes down to how many Others there are and how quickly they can build up their zombie army. Unless they can turn a lot of the north (already hunkered down in castles and strongholds) the Others will just be running around until Spring forces them back to their homeland. During the War for Dawn (or The Dawn, or whatever its called) I imagine there weren't a whole lot of stone castles or holdfasts, just scattered villages that were easily overwhelmed.

What could the Others be running from?

[Arthanis]

IMO one of the main Others targets will be Highgarden - even prior to north.

Iron Islands will be sank, and dead iron men will rise and attack Reach.

Of course The Wall must fall first.

[bent branch]

I think its more then just the Others though. I have a feeling the South is going to be hit by its own crises. I dont think the others make it south of the neck, but I think the South is hit by something nearly as nasty.

A plague of grey scale, perhaps?

I have been unable to shake the idea that something like this will happen. The first time I read the novels I totally missed the foreshadowing that Aegon would arrive on the scene (on re-read I realized that he is foreshadowed from the very first book) and interpreted this exchange between Dany and Jorah:

"A dead man in the prow of a ship, a blue rose, a banquet of blood...what does any of it mean, Khaleesi? A mummer's dragon, you said. What

is

a mummer's dragon, pray?"

"A cloth dragon on poles," Dany explained. "Mummers use them in their follies, to give the heroes something to fight"

as meaning that the lie that Dany would slay would be who or what the true enemy was. Even after the reveal of Aegon, I still felt the best interpretation of this passage was that Dany would slay the lie of a false enemy. I know that it is a popular interpretation to think that this image represents Aegon, but I see something different. I think when the plague (grayscale and/or pale mare) hits the south many people will die. From what we have seen of the wights and the Others, the wights appear in advance of the Others. If a plague hits the south, then large numbers of people will be dying and being raised as wights. We know that winter is reaching the south and that may be all that is needed to begin the raising of the wights. The others may never have to move south of the wall for chaos to begin. Somehow, Dany will reveal that the true enemy (the one raising the wights) is in the north. So, I'm not really sure that the Wall needs to fall at all for the south to experience some of what is happening in the north.

btw, Does anyone think that the reason there must always be a Stark at Winterfell have anything to do with keeping the Others at bay? Was it part of the original solution, either through magic or a negotiated settlement from the first war with the Others?

[KC_Accidental]

I think what needs to be asked when considering whether the WW's will make it over the Wall or not is how much obsidian does the Nights Watch and Stannis have at their disposal to use against them? I seem to remember Stanis having Dragonstone mined for obsidian but did he get much before he left? That obviously stopped when Loras Tyrell stormed the island. The Nightswatch only found a handful of arrow heads and knifes. Sam is in a good position to get the maesters prepping for it but are they listening to him? I think he's being pre-occupied in other matters at the moment to be getting large shipments of obsidian sent up to the Wall. With the turmoil the North, South and rest of the kingdom is in I can't see that happening soon. I always thought that Dany's Unsullied would be essential in defeating the Others. Not totally crucial but playing a big part because they don't fear anything and wouldn't run away. But I think the Others will be over the Wall before she gets there.

I can't see greyscale hitting the South really hard and having those victims resurrected without the Wights being south of the Wall themselves. I don't think their power stretches that far but who knows.

[LordDolorousEdd]

I think what needs to be asked when considering whether the WW's will make it over the Wall or not is how much obsidian does the Nights Watch and Stannis have at their disposal to use against them? I seem to remember Stanis having Dragonstone mined for obsidian but did he get much before he left? That obviously stopped when Loras Tyrell stormed the island. The Nightswatch only found a handful of arrow heads and knifes. Sam is in a good position to get the maesters prepping for it but are they listening to him? I think he's being pre-occupied in other matters at the moment to be getting large shipments of obsidian sent up to the Wall. With the turmoil the North, South and rest of the kingdom is in I can't see that happening soon. I always thought that Dany's Unsullied would be essential in defeating the Others. Not totally crucial but playing a big part because they don't fear anything and wouldn't run away. But I think the Others will be over the Wall before she gets there.

I can't see greyscale hitting the South really hard and having those victims resurrected without the Wights being south of the Wall themselves. I don't think their power stretches that far but who knows.

I dont think WW can cross the wall because of its magics which stop them passing.... so it might have to come down or them find a counter-spell or something...

[DragonsHungry]

For those who don't think the North will fall; is it not a complete anti-climax that these world ending terrifying creatures not even get past the wall? Especially at a time when the Nights Watch is arguably at its worst and the whole realm is preoccupied by war and silly power struggles. If they can't take advantage of that situation then they are not enemies to be feared at all. Imagine the dragons which are essentially the nukes of this world, imagine they didn't do a single thing, didn't kill anybody, didn't raze a village, nothing. It would be like that but 10 times worse.

Another possibility I thought of is that the Others don't even go through the wall. Does the Bay of Ice have any significance in it's name, other than being a bay around frozen coastline? Perhaps the Bay of Ice in a particularly bad winter would freeze over and the Others will just march straight over into the North, bypassing the wall completely. In fact they don't even need to do that. The Milkwater river runs right between the North and...the norther North! The Wall has some sort of magic properties but I doubt it's powers stretch beyond the limits of the Wall itself. So maybe the Others will just trek over the mountains and frozen river, waving goodbye at whatever remnants are left on the Wall!

I agree, they would be pretty pointless if they didn't make it past the wall and they would be a lame threat.

It is possible too the Others will bypass much of the north, why go around trying to take small holds and remote castles in a wilderness?

The remote northmen and scattered survivors are no threat if they get past Stannis' army.

The others could just pass through and go to the weakened Riverlands to bolster the undead army. The South is where the people are and that is the place to strike with winter coming.

Who knows. The northmen could survive because it is vast and remote and the Others bypass them to hit where the bulk of the populace lives.

[Patizambo]

What if the Others are running from something too?

LOL, This is the best theory I've read in a long time.

[Ice Turtle]

I agree, they would be pretty pointless if they didn't make it past the wall and they would be a lame threat.

Are you sure? The guys waited 8000 years. If they are really the cause of long Winter why just don't freeze whole Westeros and wait another 100 years and then kill those few hundred people that survived winter that long?

[Gallant]

Yes I would find it likely the people of the North would retreat to Harrenhal, but I think if the Others should be stopped at the Neck.

Or the others might occupy Harrenhal, and the dragons once again burn the place. You know how George RR Martin likes his parallels.

[Arthanis]

Why do you think Others must attack North first?

Martin added "undead attacking from sea" for a reason.

I still bet first target will be Reach after destruction of Iron Islands.