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[book spoilers] the gutting of Catelyn's motivation

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The thread titles are a bit over-the-top, that's their purpose, they're supposed to make people want what's inside them. Even so I fail to see what's vitriolic or hateful about it. "The gutting of Catelyn's motivation" suggests that the OP had fault with one particular aspect of Cat's plotline in the show, namely the motivation behind her release of Jaime, and he then explained why he was disappointed in the change. If the OP had just said "D&D are morons they're screwing everything up" that would have been unhelpful and vitriolic. Here it's just strong disapproval, but it's still constructive.

Most of the other posters expressed their opinions rather mildly by saying "It felt off" or "it was weak" or "why Cat did't explain herself confuses me". There's nothing even remotely hateful about those, it's just criticism. Saying something is terrible isn't particularly vitriolic either.

Thanks for the support.

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@housemartell, why are you so concerned with her going back to winterfell? Why is it a character flaw that she didn't? Obviously we disagree on her usefulness to robb, as I think her advice to him was valuable and you to not, but even if she were an impediment to his campaign, which I guess she became after releasing Jamie, why shouldn't she Want to stay with her eldest son, who is (seemingly) in much more immediate danger than her youngest sons.

Regarding Cat's political shrewdness, I think it would be redundant to defend the Tyrion and Jamie fiasco's, as they have been discussed often on other threads, but she did have some very good advice that no one listened to.

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@housemartell, why are you so concerned with her going back to winterfell? Why is it a character flaw that she didn't? Obviously we disagree on her usefulness to robb, as I think her advice to him was valuable and you to not, but even if she were an impediment to his campaign, which I guess she became after releasing Jamie, why shouldn't she Want to stay with her eldest son, who is (seemingly) in much more immediate danger than her youngest sons.

Regarding Cat's political shrewdness, I think it would be redundant to defend the Tyrion and Jamie fiasco's, as they have been discussed often on other threads, but she did have some very good advice that no one listened to.

I've never agreed with the idea that Catelyn should have been at Winterfell, but I won't belabor now. I will say that suggesting that Catelyn's only contribution is negotiating passage through The Twins is a little shortsighted. The Twins parley, if nothing else, placed her influence and level of political skill higher than anyone else as without it, Robb would not have captured Jaime at all, and he would not have been in position to garner subsequent victories over his opposition.

She giveth, and then she taketh away, so to speak.

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I took a lot of heat around here for saying I never bought the fact that Cat didn't go back to her boys, and I find it way more believable that in the show she at least expresses a strong desire to go to Bran and Rick, In the books I think the most we get is her thinking that the boys must think poorly of her, not she misses them. Now wherever you believe the best place for her is, she should at least want to be with her youngest children, even if she stays elsewhere. So this is one thing I feel the show has done better than the books :stunned: .

Right, because it's natural for all women to always have staying home and taking care of their children as their first priority at all times. :rolleyes:

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I took a lot of heat around here for saying I never bought the fact that Cat didn't go back to her boys, and I find it way more believable that in the show she at least expresses a strong desire to go to Bran and Rick, In the books I think the most we get is her thinking that the boys must think poorly of her, not she misses them. Now wherever you believe the best place for her is, she should at least want to be with her youngest children, even if she stays elsewhere. So this is one thing I feel the show has done better than the books

Right, because it's natural for all women to always have staying home and taking care of their children as their first priority at all times. :rolleyes:

Jebus, but I just loathe the bolded train of thought. Such a pile of archetypal bullshit. And the "strong desire" is an HBO creation to soften for the viewers, who apparently, it is presumed would have difficulty with the idea that she was not with her children in Winterfell, seeing it as a character flaw. I am disheartened to find that in this they were so obviously correct.

@DavidSelig--In love with your bottom-tag quote. So simple, and true.

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@housemartell, why are you so concerned with her going back to winterfell? Why is it a character flaw that she didn't? Obviously we disagree on her usefulness to robb, as I think her advice to him was valuable and you to not, but even if she were an impediment to his campaign, which I guess she became after releasing Jamie, why shouldn't she Want to stay with her eldest son, who is (seemingly) in much more immediate danger than her youngest sons.

She provides no value to Robb, who's acting as a grown man, even if her advice is correct it is not taken, so what's the value in speaking if no one listens?. She has a newly crippled son at home, whom she hasn't seen conscious in well over a year, and a four year old child, both of which have no family around them at all. and there is no adult member of the Stark family in Winterfell.

The Twins parley, if nothing else, placed her influence and level of political skill higher than anyone else as without it,

She married off nearly half her children and took in two Freys as wards (not exactly a well respected "high ranking" family in Westeros), so I don't see how this is great strategic victory. Yes she got the Twins and yes she gets credit for that , but in truth the only reason she did it was because she had children to use as trading value.

Right, because it's natural for all women to always have staying home and taking care of their children as their first priority at all times. :rolleyes:

enough with the "woman" argument, its about being a parent. I as a father I can't imagine leaving my newly crippled young son and toddler in the hands of non family members for 2 years. It would be one thing if she was leading the army herself or if there was another adult family member in Winterfell, but there isn't. She is the only living adult Stark family member (male or female) and her value to Robb is minimal. So I'll ask again what practical purpose does does Catelyn Tully-Stark serve to King/General Robb Stark while at war? After procuring the Twins name me one thing she accomplished for Robb,The best thing she did for him was bring him her uncle the Blackfish (a family member who's seasoned in war and leading men). Now i'm not sure if people are aware of this but 4 year old children greatly benefit from having parents. And people who have newly become paralyzed from the waist down and have spent weeks in a coma could also use some love as well. Is Robb in a difficult position, yes, but again SHE IS NOT DOING ANYTHING FOR HIM. As far as being a woman is it solely up to her to take of the children, No shouldn't be. But seeing as how Ned no longer has a head, he is not quite up to the task (another thing, besides being 4 and newly paralyzed, the boys also lost their father recently, sure would be nice if they could talk to mom).

If Cassana Estermont-Baratheon were still alive would her place be at Renly's side? Why does everyone think Cat needs to be with Robb?

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a. she consistently gives robb good advice that robb ignores

b. she attempts to negotiate with renly when she was the only good option to do so

c. upon returning from visiting renly she couldnt go back

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a. she consistently gives robb good advice that robb ignores

b. she attempts to negotiate with renly when she was the only good option to do so

What does she accomplish? Not what does she try or say, but what actual value does she provide. If the GreatJon had gone to negotiate with Renly what would be different? And her advice to Robb is analogous to a tree falling in the wood with no there to hear it...

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IF nothing her regularly being correct gets Robb to reconsider his decision making process.

also IIRC, she got Robb to change commanders for confronting Tywin while he snuck south. Jon wanted Greatjon to lead the diversion and she pointed out that he should have someone less agressive and Robb changed that to Bolton

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enough with the "woman" argument, its about being a parent. I as a father I can't imagine leaving my newly crippled young son and toddler in the hands of non family members for 2 years. It would be one thing if she was leading the army herself or if there was another adult family member in Winterfell, but there isn't. She is the only living adult Stark family member (male or female) and her value to Robb is minimal. So I'll ask again what practical purpose does does Catelyn Tully-Stark serve to King/General Robb Stark while at war? After procuring the Twins name me one thing she accomplished for Robb,The best thing she did for him was bring him her uncle the Blackfish (a family member who's seasoned in war and leading men). Now i'm not sure if people are aware of this but 4 year old children greatly benefit from having parents. And people who have newly become paralyzed from the waist down and have spent weeks in a coma could also use some love as well. Is Robb in a difficult position, yes, but again SHE IS NOT DOING ANYTHING FOR HIM. As far as being a woman is it solely up to her to take of the children, No shouldn't be. But seeing as how Ned no longer has a head, he is not quite up to the task (another thing, besides being 4 and newly paralyzed, the boys also lost their father recently, sure would be nice if they could talk to mom).

There's a vicious war going and Cat expects that if it's lost, her children would die. And for a good reason - Tywin Lannister is notorious for buchering children and exterminating the whole families of his opponents. As far as I am concerned, the obviously best thing for her to do as a parent is to stay where she thinks she can help the most. Sure, she knows Bran and Rickon would miss her very much and this would probably cause problems down the road, but their survival is much more important.

The war was not just a military affair, it was decided just as much politically than by what happened on the field (which was often the case in medieval wars), if not more. Robb was 15/16 year old boy, with little political skill and practically no experience, who was clearly lacking people who he could trust and who were capable when it comes to politics and knowing the key political players in the South. Apart from his mother, who else fit this? Nobody.

If Cassana Estermont-Baratheon were still alive would her place be at Renly's side? Why does everyone think Cat needs to be with Robb?

Renly is 5 years older, he has been a Lord Paramount for years, he's experienced in the politics of the realm from his years serving on the small council, he's had time to find people who he can trust in his years as a Lord before the war and his army is so big all he needed to do to win the Iron Throne was not screw up really spectacularly or get killed by magic. It's not the same case as Robb at all.

But even so, if Cassana was a smart woman who could help her son and wanted to do it - being with him and advising him would've been a good thing as far as I am concerned.

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IF nothing her regularly being correct gets Robb to reconsider his decision making process.

also IIRC, she got Robb to change commanders for confronting Tywin while he snuck south. Jon wanted Greatjon to lead the diversion and she pointed out that he should have someone less agressive and Robb changed that to Bolton

I dont know if she's regularly correct......she was correct sometimes but she was essential to mist of Robb's success.

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you are blaming cat for robb ignoring her?

No, I'm saying why would any of the North leaders listen to her in regards to military strategy and politics? Do I personally have misogynistic views of women's value in war? No. But the men of Westeros do. That is a point I want to STRESS, I'm not saying she should be less valuable or I believe she is less valuable. I'm saying Robb is at war, he is named "King of the North" and he is leading men into battle. He more than likely isn't going to listen much to his mom (even if you take away all of that other stuff a 16 yr old boy rarely pays his mother enough mind as he should). She has no formal training in any of the areas people are pointing to and no prior experience, so why should we believe that Cat would be useful to Robb while he's at war? Did Ned take her with him to the Greyjoy rebellion?

also IIRC, she got Robb to change commanders for confronting Tywin while he snuck south. Jon wanted Greatjon to lead the diversion and she pointed out that he should have someone less agressive and Robb changed that to Bolton

How did trusting Bolton work out for them?

There's a vicious war going and Cat expects that if it's lost, her children would die. And for a good reason - Tywin Lannister is notorious for buchering children and exterminating the whole families of his opponents. As far as I am concerned, the obviously best thing for her to do as a parent is to stay where she thinks she can help the most. Sure, she knows Bran and Rickon would miss her very much and this would probably cause problems down the road, but their survival is much more important.

I'm sure Cat believes she is doing the best thing for her family, I just disagree. I am empathetic to Cat, her suffering is heart breaking. But she's not experienced in war, her counsel and actions at times have terrible consequences. And based on the male dominated social mores of the time there is no reason for even her to believe her advice will be valued (is that right? No, but that is the way it is). So she is untrained, inexperienced, and is most likely going to be ignored by the men of the North and Riverlands (her son included), so why should she believe that is where she can do the most good?

Renly is 5 years older, he has been a Lord Paramount for years, he's experienced in the politics of the realm from his years serving on the small council, he's had time to find people who he can trust in his years as a Lord before the war and his army is so big all he needed to do to win the Iron Throne was not screw up really spectacularly or get killed by magic. It's not the same case as Robb at all.

But even so, if Cassana was a smart woman who could help her son and wanted to do it - being with him and advising him would've been a good thing as far as I am concerned.

Renly has been to just as many wars as Robb. If anything Robb studied under Ned his whole life while Renly's father is dead and I doubt either of his older brothers passed much of their guidance on to him. Is Renly more dept at politics? Yes, but there is still a war going on. How much more political experience does Cat have then Robb? What is on her resume that leads us (or anyone else) to believe she would be more valuable with Robb than Bran and Rickon?

It's nice that you have such a modern view of women and warfare, but I doubt many of the Lords of Westeros share your sentiment. Again that is the context of this discussion, a med-evil type land.

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They are trying to smoosh all the Karstark stuff together with the escape, to fit in more story.. more tension, more suspense towards the end of the season. And to give us a killer scene with Jaime and remind us that he really really likes to kill people.

I would have also liked to see Cat and Brienne grieve together for her children... but I thought Jaime's scenes were so good, I can forgive them.

I think TV Cat's motivations still make sense. Jaime and the Karstarks created an unstable situation. Too many people were angry and Jaime would inevitably have been killed. Dead Jaime = Dead Sansa. Releasing Jaime in Brienne's custody was Cat's only possible hope of getting Sansa back. Littlefinger had already put this idea in her head, so she wasn't doing this out of the blue.. she's been thinking it over for half the season.

Basically we've exchanged another scene where Cat grieves over her family for some badass scenes with Jaime. And I'm almost positive we'll still get to see her cry about Bran very soon.

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She provides no value to Robb, who's acting as a grown man, even if her advice is correct it is not taken, so what's the value in speaking if no one listens?. She has a newly crippled son at home, whom she hasn't seen conscious in well over a year, and a four year old child, both of which have no family around them at all. and there is no adult member of the Stark family in Winterfell.

Why are you placing so much importance on "member of the Stark family" ? The Stark kids weren't exactly raised by their parents in the first place : Septa Mordane took care of the girls' education, Rodrik Cassel taught the boys to fight, Maester Luwin is probably the one who taught them their numbers (he's also the one who delivered them) and Old Nan told them bedtimes stories. It's not like they have no one they know around. They're living among the people who've known them their entire lives, not random strangers. Just because they're not related by blood doesn't mean they're incapable of giving them the support they need. If Cat had left Robb's side instead would you be saying he's screwed because "there is no adult member of the Stark family" near him ? There's only one adult member of the Stark family left with 5 children in 4 different locations.

I also find it weird that you think not giving up on something because you're not immediately getting your way is a character flaw. Perseverance is usually considered a good thing, no ? Even though she was largely ignored, Cat still managed to make herself heard by Robb a few times, saving Jeyne Westerling's life for example. So her perseverance saved at least one life, which wouldn't have happened if she'd been back in Winterfell (where she would have probably been killed/taken hostage/married off instead).

As for Cat being untrained in war. Yes she is, that's why she's not part of his war councils. She never tells him how to fight his battles, and he does well without her. Robb's problem isn't the military strategy, it's the politics. And in that domain Catelyn can definitely help. She's the eldest daughter of one of the Great House, raised as its heir for 9-10 years before Edmure was born, and married into another Great House. A Lady's role isn't restricted to baking cupcakes for the entire castle. So I'd say that 15+ years of being a Great Lady gives her vastly more experience that Robb, who's only been alive for 15 years. And if you can't accept that her credentials as Great Lady are acceptable to demonstrate political prowess, then what do you make of all the other Lords, like Roose Bolton and Wyman Manderly, that follow Robb and give him advice ? In any case I'd say that it's supposed to be pretty clear that she's politically proficient given the advice she gives : "try allying yourself with Renly" was pretty solid advice, and she came up with it before anyone else, including Brynden "seasoned in war and leading men" Tully. Don't trust the Westerlings was pretty good too, or don't send Theon Greyjoy back to the Iron Islands.

Wrt the Frey alliance. 1) Not being a "high ranking family in Westeros". So your point is that the Freys aren't good enough for the Tully-Starks because they're not a Great House. Let's take a look at those. Starks-Tully-Arryn are out of the picture because, well, inbreeding. Edmure is the only available Tully, and he's 24-25. Marrying him to 10-year-old Arya would have been massively creepy. Robert Arryn is the only available Arryn, and he's 6, sickly, and a direct cousin. Lysa doesn't seem to mind about the last part, but the sickly part is not great for marriage offers (especially to Arya, the only available girl in the Stark family at that time). Then you have the Baratheons, who are all dead or already married. The main branch of Tyrells are all taken except Willas and Loras. The Martells have Arianne, Quentyn and Trystane, but no one really thinks about them all that much in the first place, and Doran has his own plans anyway. And then you have the Lannisters of course. So all of the Great Houses are pretty much out. Which leaves the second-tier Houses, which means Houses like the Freys ! They're not really respected, but they're undeniably rich and powerful (3-4,000 soldiers isn't a thing minor houses can afford, they also have their own vassals). Besides Great Houses almost never intermarry with each other like the previous generation did (Stark-Tully, Tully-Arryn, Lannister-Baratheon), and they usually marry their bannermen (as Tywin mentions). 2) They needed the Freys. Without the Freys they can't even go south in the first place. Without the Freys they lose before they even started. They clearly had the advantage, so they used it.

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this whole season has been HBO just trying to touch on all (or a bunch) of the bullet points of acok without worrying about whether or not the shit they put inbetween actually makes them make sense, or making sure that the intended implications of a scene from acok are what they are supposed to be.

i have non-reader friends who are sure that the shadow is going to show up during the finale. the reason is because, yes, HBO showed both the assassination of renly and the birth of a shadow. but the order that these appear IS important. in the book, renly's death is the set up, and the birth is the pay off. the implication is that melisandre and/or the lord of light, are to be taken seriously. on the tv show, they made the birth the set up, and renly's death the pay off. and because this is the only shadow that exists, it really makes the shadow itself the important thing. yet we're not going to see it or any other shadow now, and that shadow is going to seem REALLY bizarre and totally deus ex machina when non-readers think back to it.

cat's situation is no different. yep, they managed to cross that bullet point off the list. is it as strong a moment as in the book? no, definitely not.

Good post, and I certainly agree about the bullet points. This whole season it feels like they're hitting on all the major points of the novel without really spending the necessary time to set up those moments. This is partly due to 10 episodes just not being enough time to tell ACOK, but it's also because of the all the time taken by the new scenes. That's one of my big problems with this season; the new scenes aren't all bad (most are pretty good), but they add very little to the show. I still don't see what the point of the scene with Joffrey and the whores was; everyone already knows he's an evil little shit. Same with the scene with Littlefinger and Ros, and even the good Arya and Tywin scenes were ultimately pointless.

And then important scenes from the book just sort of flounder onscreen. Renly's meeting with Stannis was not set up at all, and in fact neither of them at any point even acknowledged they were going to meet. Suddenly, they're meeting in a field, just because that's what happens in the book. Same with Arya's prayer; she does it once in the show, and hasn't done it since and probably won't again. Harrenhal feels gutted, the terror of it that turns changes Arya swithced for some decent scenes between her and Tywin that really amounted to nothing, either plot wise or even changing Arya's character.

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Why are you placing so much importance on "member of the Stark family" ? The Stark kids weren't exactly raised by their parents in the first place : Septa Mordane took care of the girls' education, Rodrik Cassel taught the boys to fight, Maester Luwin is probably the one who taught them their numbers (he's also the one who delivered them) and Old Nan told them bedtimes stories. It's not like they have no one they know around. They're living among the people who've known them their entire lives, not random strangers. Just because they're not related by blood doesn't mean they're incapable of giving them the support they need. If Cat had left Robb's side instead would you be saying he's screwed because "there is no adult member of the Stark family" near him ? There's only one adult member of the Stark family left with 5 children in 4 different locations.

I went to school and had lots of teachers, that doesn't mean I didn't need parents. Plus with Cassel and Luwin now left to run Winterfell they have even less time for the boys. And yes family members (parents especially) are important because no one cares about your kids as much as you do. And Robb is King, 16, and acting as a man. Rickon is 4, Bran is 10 and newly crippled, So no it's not the same as leaving Robb. The 2 girls are prisoners in KL, Cat isn't going to go riding in in full armor slaying the Kings Guard and freeing Sansa (and presumably Arya). My opinion is shes isn't a whole lot of good to Robb where he is, so that leaves Bran and Rickon.

As for Cat being untrained in war. Yes she is, that's why she's not part of his war councils. She never tells him how to fight his battles, and he does well without her. Robb's problem isn't the military strategy, it's the politics. And in that domain Catelyn can definitely help. She's the eldest daughter of one of the Great House, raised as its heir for 9-10 years before Edmure was born, and married into another Great House. A Lady's role isn't restricted to baking cupcakes for the entire castle. So I'd say that 15+ years of being a Great Lady gives her vastly more experience that Robb, who's only been alive for 15 years. And if you can't accept that her credentials as Great Lady are acceptable to demonstrate political prowess, then what do you make of all the other Lords, like Roose Bolton and Wyman Manderly, that follow Robb and give him advice ? In any case I'd say that it's supposed to be pretty clear that she's politically proficient given the advice she gives : "try allying yourself with Renly" was pretty solid advice, and she came up with it before anyone else, including Brynden "seasoned in war and leading men" Tully. Don't trust the Westerlings was pretty good too, or don't send Theon Greyjoy back to the Iron Islands.

She had some good advice, and some bad. But as I said social mores of the time are that her cousel won't be heeded anyway, Renly didn't align with them, and Theon and the Westerlings did betray them, so what practical value did her counsel serve? Even if I conceed she was the most brilliant politically savy person in all of Westeros, no one listened, so what good did it do?

Wrt the Frey alliance. 1) Not being a "high ranking family in Westeros". So your point is that the Freys aren't good enough for the Tully-Starks because they're not a Great House. Let's take a look at those. Starks-Tully-Arryn are out of the picture because, well, inbreeding. Edmure is the only available Tully, and he's 24-25. Marrying him to 10-year-old Arya would have been massively creepy. Robert Arryn is the only available Arryn, and he's 6, sickly, and a direct cousin. Lysa doesn't seem to mind about the last part, but the sickly part is not great for marriage offers (especially to Arya, the only available girl in the Stark family at that time). Then you have the Baratheons, who are all dead or already married. The main branch of Tyrells are all taken except Willas and Loras. The Martells have Arianne, Quentyn and Trystane, but no one really thinks about them all that much in the first place, and Doran has his own plans anyway. And then you have the Lannisters of course. So all of the Great Houses are pretty much out. Which leaves the second-tier Houses, which means Houses like the Freys ! They're not really respected, but they're undeniably rich and powerful (3-4,000 soldiers isn't a thing minor houses can afford, they also have their own vassals). Besides Great Houses almost never intermarry with each other like the previous generation did (Stark-Tully, Tully-Arryn, Lannister-Baratheon), and they usually marry their bannermen (as Tywin mentions). 2) They needed the Freys. Without the Freys they can't even go south in the first place. Without the Freys they lose before they even started. They clearly had the advantage, so they used it.

Yes my point is the Frey's aren't a good marriage alience for 2 of your 5 children. I'm saying Frey is her fathers sworn banner man and she had to give up two of her kids just to have him let them cross the street. My point is this doesn't demonstrates a keen negotiating mind. Yes she did what needed to be done and I have always given her credit for procuring the Twins, but having children to marry off isn't an advantage that will serve Robb further along in his war campaign. And do you think she would have married any of her kids to Freys under normal circumstances? probably not, so yes the rich powerfull 2nd tier Freys are an undesireable match.

I also find it weird that you think not giving up on something because you're not immediately getting your way is a character flaw. Perseverance is usually considered a good thing, no ?

What you're calling "perserverence", I call wasting time and not being particularly valuable while your other children need you.

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I went to school and had lots of teachers, that doesn't mean I didn't need parents. Plus with Cassel and Luwin now left to run Winterfell they have even less time for the boys. And yes family members (parents especially) are important because no one cares about your kids as much as you do. And Robb is King, 16, and acting as a man. Rickon is 4, Bran is 10 and newly crippled, So no it's not the same as leaving Robb. The 2 girls are prisoners in KL, Cat isn't going to go riding in in full armor slaying the Kings Guard and freeing Sansa (and presumably Arya). My opinion is shes isn't a whole lot of good to Robb where he is, so that leaves Bran and Rickon.

I assume you didn't live with your teachers and your teacher's children. And I never said that parents are unnecessary, what I don't understand is why you give so much value to blood relations ? Are Maester Luwin or Old Nan incapable of properly taking care of Bran and Rickon because they're not related by blood ? The kids grew up with them, they're much better suited at raising them than Hoster, the Blackfish or Lysa would.

She had some good advice, and some bad. But as I said social mores of the time are that her cousel won't be heeded anyway, Renly didn't align with them, and Theon and the Westerlings did betray them, so what practical value did her counsel serve? Even if I conceed she was the most brilliant politically savy person in all of Westeros, no one listened, so what good did it do?

What's the advice you'd consider bad, for example ? And I already gave you an example of the practical value of her advice : it saved Jeyne Westerling's life.

Yes my point is the Frey's aren't a good marriage alience for 2 of your 5 children. I'm saying Frey is her fathers sworn banner man and she had to give up two of her kids just to have him let them cross the street. My point is this doesn't demonstrates a keen negotiating mind. Yes she did what needed to be done and I have always given her credit for procuring the Twins, but having children to marry off isn't an advantage that will serve Robb further along in his war campaign. And do you think she would have married any of her kids to Freys under normal circumstances? probably not, so yes the rich powerfull 2nd tier Freys are an undesireable match.

So who exactly is "worthy" of the mighty Starks ? Another Great House ? There aren't any matches available, and it's not even the way things usually go. There are only 7 Great Houses anyway, they can't always keep marrying each other without ending like the Habsburgs, so what they do is marry their bannermen's children. See : Mace Tyrell and Alerie Hightower, Jon Arryn and Jeyne Royce, Hoster Tully and Minisa Whent, Stannis Baratheon and Selyse Florent, Kevan Lannister and Dorna Swyft etc. Alerie Hightower is the only one of that lot to be of almost equal standing. House Swyft is not even a noble house but a knightly one. Under normal circumstances the kids would have been married to Ned's bannermen, as said in the text. So who exactly do you think would have been a more suitable match for Arya or Robb ? They needed to go South, the Twins is the only place where the army can cross for hundreds of miles, it's defended by about 4,000 men and there's a castle on each side of the river. Maybe you think the better strategy would have been to lay siege to the twins for a couple of years ?

What you're calling "perserverence", I call wasting time and not being particularly valuable while your other children need you.

So your advice when facing misogyny is to just accept it and go home because it's pointless. That'll go far.

Also :

I took a lot of heat around here for saying I never bought the fact that Cat didn't go back to her boys, and I find it way more believable that in the show she at least expresses a strong desire to go to Bran and Rick, In the books I think the most we get is her thinking that the boys must think poorly of her, not she misses them. Now wherever you believe the best place for her is, she should at least want to be with her youngest children, even if she stays elsewhere. So this is one thing I feel the show has done better than the books :stunned: .

Catelyn does want to go home to Bran and Rickon, she just doesn't want to leave her 15-year-old fighting a war on his own. I also find it very believable that someone would wish to stay with their dying father rather than immediately go home to the well-protected and well-cared for children.

"As she slept amidst the rolling grasslands Catelyn dreamt that Bran was whole again, that Arya and Sansa held hands, that Rickon was still a babe at her breast. Robb, crownless, played with a wooden sword, and when all were safe asleep, she found Ned in her bed, smiling."

"Fate drives me south again, Catelyn thought as she sipped the astringent tea, when it is north I should be going, north to home. She had written to Bran and Rickon, that last night at Riverrun. I do not forget you, my sweet ones, you must believe that. It is only that your brother needs me more."

"She knelt before the Mother. 'My lady, look down on this battle with a mother's eyes. They are all sons, every one. Spare them if you can, and spare my own sons as well. Watch over Robb and Bran and Rickon. Would that I were with them"

"I have come so many thousands of leagues, and for what ? Who have I served ? I have lost my daughters, Robb does not want me, and Bran and Rickon must surely think me a cold and unnatural mother. I was not even with Ned when he died..."

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