[Book Spoilers] Sansa and Tyrion

[BlueQueen]

Oh and I just thought I'd add yet another possible take on that scene between Sansa and Tyrion in the last episode. When she says, "Just as I pray for the King's" she could be referring to the safety of her own brother. There are multiple kings after all. She does then mention her brother Robb to Joff right after this exchange.

[Istari]

I have a feeling that there will be some aspects of their marriage reworked for the T.V show. For example, I don't think Tyrion will bed her in the show - but his reasoning for not consummating the marriage will be because he doesn't want to 'force her' into having sex with him. This is in keeping with D&D's habit of portraying Tyrion as a hero-type figure in the series. Of course, he can't use 'she's too young' as an excuse because Sophie Turner has matured into a beautiful young lady, and therefore the audience wouldn't take her for a child.

They'll probably have Tyrion come across as 'the good guy' who is just trying to help her and take care of her. In which case, Sansa will come across as the 'bad guy' for t.v viewers, who cannot sympathize with her.

I really hope that they keep the 'cloak exchange' true to the books. I mean, Sansa refusing to bend and humiliating Tyrion is the perfect start to an unhappy marriage

[Wouter]

I have a feeling that there will be some aspects of their marriage reworked for the T.V show. For example, I don't think Tyrion will bed her in the show - but his reasoning for not consummating the marriage will be because he doesn't want to 'force her' into having sex with him. This is in keeping with D&D's habit of portraying Tyrion as a hero-type figure in the series. Of course, he can't use 'she's too young' as an excuse because Sophie Turner has matured into a beautiful young lady, and therefore the audience wouldn't take her for a child.

They'll probably have Tyrion come across as 'the good guy' who is just trying to help her and take care of her. In which case, Sansa will come across as the 'bad guy' for t.v viewers, who cannot sympathize with her.

They can avoid that if they stay true to the circumstances of the book otherwise (I agree they cannot and will not do the bedding the way it was); the key point about it is that Tyrion first talked to his wife-to-be about it mere minutes (or even seconds) before the ceremony started, as well as the motives behind the wedding.

Right now on TWOP, the "unsullied" speculate on such a marriage and they seem to favour it but they assume Tyrion would do it to protect Sansa. If the show manages to get across that:

-Sansa wants to marry Willas (or whatever Tyrell they may substitute for him in the show, but I guess offscreen Willas would cost nothing so he's in)

-the Lannisters learn about this and want to stop (the seeds of) a Tyrell-Stark alliance, as well as stop the Tyrells from getting too much power for their liking

-Tywin and Kevan make the argument that Tyrion will never get a decent wife short of force-marrying Sansa, and Tywin dangles Winterfell as a carrot in front of Tyrion's nose (he still has it on the show!)

-Tyrion is seen to be swayed by Tywin's arguments; it may not come over that he only does it because he fears Tywin, let alone that he does it with only Sansa's best interests in mind

-Tyrion makes sure Sansa doesn't learn about the plans until it is way too late (for "reasons of state", as he explains to Sansa while making a half-hearted apology in an attempt to get her to accept him)

then the audience should perfectly understand Sansa's feelings and position.

Moreover, with Shae having a different personality and role the show could play freely with her disgust at the whole thing (she would also feel betrayed by Tyrion if she really loves him as she seems to do on the show, whereas I got the impression book-Shae was merely jealous about Sansa's status as official wife and otherwise not bothered about Tyrion possibly loving someone else but her).

Hence, I think the show has plenty of room to make it clear Tyrion is making use of Sansa and his motives are not nice ones. If the audience understands that Tyrion aims to effectively steal Winterfell from the Starks and that Tyrion really ambushes Sansa with the wedding in a decidely unfriendly and unromantic way, their sympathy should go to the victim and not to the perpetrator.

They can then have Tyrion spare her the entire bedding ritual to compensate a bit and don't make Tyrion in a clear bad guy either.

[Istari]

I see you're point, and I would love the show to play out that way.

But, D&D are major Tyrion fanboys. I think, ultimately Tywin will be the 'bad guy' for orchestrating the entire marriage (with the intentions that you mentioned). I think Tyrion will try to resist the marriage, but will ultimately submit. He'll feel guilty and will take pity on Sansa, who in turn will be miserable and distant.

Really? the unsullied have started to speculate such a marriage? I'm impressed

Also - what does TWOP stand for again? :blushing:

[BlueQueen]

Wouter, I like your opinion of Shae. I could see show Shae being hurt by the marriage on an emotional level and this could somehow lead to her betraying Tyrion. I still don't know how they're going to have Tyrion kill her on the show though. Maybe Cersei will be involved. She is now suspicious of Shae as seen in the last episode.

[Pellaeon]

@Wouter

I belive D&D will skip the Wyllas part, and make the hole marriage Tywins idea to get Winterfell. I also believe they won't risk to make Tyrion a bad guy, they build him up as a moral man in this season, they wont risk the non-bookreader love for him

[Woman of War]

There is an interesting parallele between Tyrion and Sansa:

Both are forced by circumstances to replace the the person that should be in charge:

Sansa gives courage to the ladies in the Red Keep, where Cersei as queen regent is nothing but sarcastic and drunk, failing totally as role model of courage. So Sansa takes over.Tyrion leads the attac where the king is a coward and Sandor panicks.

Both showed a courage here they did not even believe they had it in them, both replaced the ruling character on top, as king and Queen substitute.

This is even more obvious than in the books, since there Joffrey is still fairly young and being afraid might be understandable. And Sansa's role is only briefly mentioned.

We have here two cases of "being brave although being afraid. This is the only time when...". The immediate physical danger is of course bigger for the dwarf out to fight.

But the parallele in the actions of those two characters, stepping into the first row when those in charge fail, is obvious.

Tall as a king....the younger queen......

[Queen Sansa Stark]

I am not really looking forward to this. Especially how they toned down Tyrion flaws. I really missed the whining "poor me" act, how shallow he can be and his vulgar taste of humor. Plus they seem to have the trend of making Sansa seem unlikeable. These aspects I am afraid will have terribly consequences on their dynamic.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

I have a feeling that there will be some aspects of their marriage reworked for the T.V show. For example, I don't think Tyrion will bed her in the show - but his reasoning for not consummating the marriage will be because he doesn't want to 'force her' into having sex with him. This is in keeping with D&D's habit of portraying Tyrion as a hero-type figure in the series. Of course, he can't use 'she's too young' as an excuse because Sophie Turner has matured into a beautiful young lady, and therefore the audience wouldn't take her for a child.

They'll probably have Tyrion come across as 'the good guy' who is just trying to help her and take care of her. In which case, Sansa will come across as the 'bad guy' for t.v viewers, who cannot sympathize with her.

I really hope that they keep the 'cloak exchange' true to the books. I mean, Sansa refusing to bend and humiliating Tyrion is the perfect start to an unhappy marriage

I have to disagree with this. Even in the novels Sansa is described to be womanly shaped and tall for her age. Ore else at what was Tyrion aroused at in the first place, as disturbing and creepy this sounds. What made Sansa so "childlike" in the first place during their wedding night was her stifling body language. Plus if I recall right Sansa age is mentioned during the scene. Sansa should be then fourteen, still a child, while Tyrion is over thirty. It would still be as creepy in the novels.

[Woman of War]

Well, in the book Sansa is not yet thirteen while Tyrion is about 25 or 26. in HBO we have a tall strong young woman and a man in his early thirties.

I think it will be indeed the body language that has to speak.

In that so very embarrassing scene Tyrion is as insecure as a 16 year old bravely awaiting his first sex like an ordeal and Sansa is trembling from fear while at the same time trying to do her alleged duty as wife. It is her who suggests to undress herself, simply because she thinks this is done that way.

So in the movie they will have to capture how Sansa is humiliated by her attempt to do what is expected of her. Then they have Tyrion's boner, that cannot be shown. It has been introduced by Martin to show that Tyrion desires Sansa despite not wanting so and that Tyrion consciously refrains from consummation although being aroused, making it a moral decision and not a decision out of indifference. So here they will be forced to make the big mistake of "tell, not show". Obviously, no frontal nude shot of Dinklage :( .

And then there is Sansa's inner monologue where she reflects about Tyrion's ugliness in every cruel detail, how visualize her disgust (a small amusing aspect in all that sadness is the fact that her desription of Tyrion's erection is physiologically quite accurate: if a penis at work matches the description of "beautiful" can be discussed :) . And Sansa may never have seen an erect penis before. But probably precisely this part of Tyrion's anatomy is indeed like any other man's) In which way can they visualize Sansa's disgust for Tyrion's body?

So how to show the deep humiliation of both, how to capture that?

[Pellaeon]

Well, in the book Sansa is not yet thirteen while Tyrion is about 25 or 26. in HBO we have a tall strong young woman and a man in his early thirties.

I think it will be indeed the body language that has to speak.

In that so very embarrassing scene Tyrion is as insecure as a 16 year old bravely awaiting his first sex like an ordeal and Sansa is trembling from fear while at the same time trying to do her alleged duty as wife. It is her who suggests to undress herself, simply because she thinks this is done that way.

So in the movie they will have to capture how Sansa is humiliated by her attempt to do what is expected of her. Then they have Tyrion's boner, that cannot be shown. It has been introduced by Martin to show that Tyrion desires Sansa despite not wanting so and that Tyrion consciously refrains from consummation although being aroused, making it a moral decision and not a decision out of indifference. So here they will be forced to make the big mistake of "tell, not show". Obviously, no frontal nude shot of Dinklage :( .

And then there is Sansa's inner monologue where she reflects about Tyrion's ugliness in every cruel detail, how visualize her disgust (a small amusing aspect in all that sadness is the fact that her desription of Tyrion's erection is physiologically quite accurate: if a penis at work matches the description of "beautiful" can be discussed :) . And Sansa may never have seen an erect penis before. But probably precisely this part of Tyrion's anatomy is indeed like any other man's) In which way can they visualize Sansa's disgust for Tyrion's body?

So how to show the deep humiliation of both, how to capture that?

IMO they will both talk to Shae about the weddingnight, so we get what happend inside their heads.

Something else, am I the only one who believes they will cut Willas, and let Olenna interrogate Ros about Joffreys whore "experience"?

[Lord commander_Snow]

he was always trying to be kind and supportive to her but she just spat in he's face

[Natalie_S]

I think they'll have to focus on her distrust to all Lannisters in a couple of episodes before the wedding (and make her extremely excited about marrying Willas) so the audience will understand her desperation at learning that she won't leave KL.

As to the wedding night scene, there's absolutely no way that they will capture the awakwardness and the humiliation that there is in the book: Sophie Turner is a minor and Peter Dinklage is simply too handsome to make his nudity humiliating (he's shirtless in a couple of films and... oh, boy... :leer: :bowdown: :blushing: ).

I think they'll most likely focus on the age gap, making Sansa look even younger.

[Zeromus]

I'm looking forward to seeing Tyrion admit to envying Joffrey's royal manhood.

Then, as this is the TV version, seeing Joffrey getting slapped again.

[Brandon Builder]

I hope they find a way to keep it true to the books in terms of the impression. I want no badguy and no goodguy. It would be utterly wrong to make Tyrion look like he was completely forced into the whole thing and Sansa is being uncompassionate, nor would it be exeptable if they made Tyrion arrange everything behind Sansa's back and tell her in the last moment. It should be true to the books. Tywin tells him too, he objects, Tywin reminds him that he will never have Casterly Rock but might have Winterfell and Tyrion is tempted and excepts. As for Sansa, her sorrows should be made understandable with a scene with Shae or Cercei, in which she expresses it. And the whole Willas and Highgarden thing should also be explored throughout a few episode (they'll have to prolong it and add more Loras-Sansa scenes to really make Sansa and the fans hopefull) to make clearer her disapointment and her loss of hope. The cloack scene must stay the very same, fool and all. The bedding; well that will be complicated. They obviously can't make Dinklage and Sophie go nude. But they MUST capture the whole fear and humiliation of it. And the marraige must be cold and uncomfortable, same as the books.

[Woman of War]

I would also like to see Tyrion's drunk or fakedrunk efforts to avoid the bedding ceremony, after it been made clear how Joffrey would have enjoyed it, the king's vulgarity, the aggressions, Tyrion's dangerous knifegame and threat (later used in the trial against him) and his dirty jokes to get out of the room. This could be a highlight for the actors Dinklage and Gleeson.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

The viewers of this show do know how young Sansa is. They saw her first period on the show. Which can't missed considering is horrible the deal was for Sansa. Plus Sansa tells her age to Tyrion during the scene. She is fourteen in the tv-show still very young and underage by Westeros laws. Plus the viewers would project their "21 century" view on this show, and be horrified.

[The Blood Eyed Crow]

I know I'm late to the conversation, so I apologize. Wouter, I think your comments about Shae are spot on.

I think the wedding to Tyrion on the show is going to be a little different than in the books. The wedding is going to be what compels Sansa to leave with LF whom she doesn't necessarily trust as he hasn't done a single kind thing for her, but desperation always prevails. I don't know how events will pan out in the show, but if the Red Wedding has occurred before the Sansa/Tyrion wedding it's only another reason for her to want to flee the Lannisters.

Secondly, it's Tywin's ultimate way of showing he has control of Tyrion and completes his utter downfall from the power of once being the Hand of the King.

Finally, the wedding will be how the show develops the disintegration of Tyrion and Shae's relationship. The show depicts Shae in a much different way than the books IMO and I think Tyrion's decision to stay in the capitol only to end up married to Sansa, which in a way for Shae is a double betrayal as Sansa is in a way her friend and especially from Tyrion who behaves like he is Shae's husband already. There's already been at least one scene this season that clues us into how Shae is treated differently in public by Tyrion and there's a bit of a jealousy in the way he calls Sansa "My Lady" and pretends to not even know who Shae is.

In the books I never truly felt the betrayal of Shae was clear. Why she lied and why we later found her with Tywin. But I think the marriage with Sansa is going to be a conduit towards showing how Tyrion is ultimately betrayed and found guilty. I'm happy we see more than just the POV characters' perspectives on the show, this way we might see if Shae was truly betraying Tyrion or maybe trying to save him.

I'm really interested to see how if Sansa and Tyrion survive The Winds of Winter what it will mean when/if he returns to Westeros. I'm happy I came across this thread as I hadn't even thought about the possible repercussions of such a reunion. Sansa and Tyrion truly are two characters that have become highly isolated, shunned and been forced to depend on any possible resources in order to survive. Sansa is learning the game that Tyrion already lives by. Perhaps their ultimate reunion won't be as horrid as the first.

[The Blood Eyed Crow]

The viewers of this show do know how young Sansa is. They saw her first period on the show. Which can't missed considering is horrible the deal was for Sansa. Plus Sansa tells her age to Tyrion during the scene. She is fourteen in the tv-show still very young and underage by Westeros laws. Plus the viewers would project their "21 century" view on this show, and be horrified.

I agree Queen Sansa Stark. I don't think they will show Sansa naked at all. They may ellude to the fact that she's trying to "do her duty" but only to have it end in humiliation and Tyrion giving up outright because of her age. I wouldn't be surprised if they just show them both on opposite sides of the same bed to send the message with some dialogue from Tyrion about trying later or it getting better. However, they presented Daenerys wedding night as brutal as it was in the book. While they may be unable to show any nudity in Sansa's case that might not deter them from showing anything and everything else they can.

[Rhaegar Targaryen's Ghost]

Oh and I just thought I'd add yet another possible take on that scene between Sansa and Tyrion in the last episode. When she says, "Just as I pray for the King's" she could be referring to the safety of her own brother. There are multiple kings after all. She does then mention her brother Robb to Joff right after this exchange.

could be, but I saw that as more of a sarcastic comment that she knew tyrion would pick up on.