[Book Spoilers] Sansa and Tyrion

[Pellaeon]

To me, the subscription model actually seems to insulate the makers of the show from outside pressure. Most the show's viewers get GOT through subscriptions to HBO as a network and don't purchase episodes individual on other services. Because of this, subscriptions alone don't indicate viewer satisfactions with individual shows. I wouldn't be surprised if HBO has ways of gathering information about people's motives behind their subscription decisions. But in order for subscription numbers to actually impact creative decisions the information gathered would have to be extremely detailed. Contrast that with network TV where the ratings are the most important measure of a show's performance.

But in a subscription model the viewer satisfaction have to be maximise, in order to do so the ratings are important, HBO will cancel GoT without hesitation if the ratings fo such an expensive show drop (see Rome)

[Zman1863]

But in a subscription model the viewer satisfaction have to be maximise, in order to do so the ratings are important, HBO will cancel GoT without hesitation if the ratings fo such an expensive show drop (see Rome)

I don't doubt it, but I still think the pressure from the viewers and their bosses at HBO regarding creative decisions is less than if they were on network TV.

[Craven Mummer]

All Tyrion needs to go over the edge is Tywin talking about his first "wife" and how it was up to Dad to keep him from making a huge embarrassing mistake. And Shea doing what whores do, screwing him over for coin. That would be enough to send anyone over the edge.

I don't think D&D care about dark, grey or any other shade. Straying too far from the story isn't necessary to push the plot along. I can't wait for Tywin and Shea to get what they deserve.

[Garlan Marius]

This needs to be as awkward a relationship as possible, and it must be explicitly so.

Tyrion turns pretty dark in this book (singer stew etc.). Start getting the audience to go "wow, this guy is BAAAD."

[Ciella]

I agree with earlier posters that it's important to keep Sansa as a sympathetic character. One way to do that may be to she her flashing back to her attempted rape. This could remind the audience of what exactly is happening during that scene. Just because we can't see the knife, doesn't mean it's not being held at her throat.

[The Knight of Flours]

After escaping the misery of betrothal to Joff, things get much worse for Sansa.

At first things will look quite good for Sansa, smiling again as she enjoys her 'freedom' and new friendship from Margaery and the Tyrells. But then the humiliation of a rushed marriage to a much-hated Lannister will suck the life out of her. They can show Tyrion being somewhat kind, but Sansa should be icy. And then comes news from the Twins.

Not really much of a change from the book. Apart from any dealings with Ros of course..

[Gigei]

I agree with earlier posters that it's important to keep Sansa as a sympathetic character. One way to do that may be to she her flashing back to her attempted rape. This could remind the audience of what exactly is happening during that scene. Just because we can't see the knife, doesn't mean it's not being held at her throat.

I like this idea.

From the Tyrion still it seems Sansa will refuse to kneel to kiss him (as they seem to have dispensed with cloaks) and from the look on his face it seems they will play up the sympathy for Tyrion angle, not the forced soon to be raped as far as she thinks prisoner.

I remember that as pretty nightmarish in the books. I am worried this will not look the same in the show.

[Dolorous Nick]

This needs to be as awkward a relationship as possible, and it must be explicitly so.

Tyrion turns pretty dark in this book (singer stew etc.). Start getting the audience to go "wow, this guy is BAAAD."

Absolutely. Essentially, this is two people being forced into an uncomfortable situation that neither wants to be a part of. Peter Dinklage and Sophie Turner know how to play awkward, Dinklage during Cersei's emotional breakdown where he has no idea how to comfort her (or if he even should) and Turner in pretty much every scene she is in with Joffrey/Cersei.

I didn't have much sympathy for the singer, as he was basically trying to blackmail Tyrion with information that could prove deadly to him and Shae. Plus the folks in Flea Bottom got a hearty meal out of it. Tyrion isn't necessarily bad, but doesn't hesitate to kill when his life is in danger.

[Ignacia]

New interview with Sophie Turner: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/tvmagazine/celebqanda/4864483/Game-Of-Thrones-star-Sophie-Turner-on-Sansa-Stark-in-the-third-series-Sansas-the-underdog.html

So aparently, she will be forming an alliance with Tyrion, and he will be like a teacher to her? I'm a bit unsure about those changes...

[ebevan91]

New interview with Sophie Turner: http://www.thesun.co...e-underdog.html

So aparently, she will be forming an alliance with Tyrion, and he will be like a teacher to her? I'm a bit unsure about those changes...

I can see some good coming out of this, in the long run anyway. TV Tyrion is quite different than book Tyrion appearance wise, anyway. That was one reason why the whole marriage was so weird. Pretty girl married to the grotesque, ugly imp.

[Newstar]

New interview with Sophie Turner: http://www.thesun.co...e-underdog.html

So aparently, she will be forming an alliance with Tyrion, and he will be like a teacher to her? I'm a bit unsure about those changes...

...Yeah, I dunno what to make of that interview. Here's the offending quote, for the curious:

Sansa develops a friendship with Joffrey’s uncle Tyrion this series. What was it like working with Peter Dinklage?

Peter’s one of the coolest guys and it was so nice to work with him. As for the characters, Tyrion’s always been bullied for his size and Sansa has been bullied by Joffrey – so it’s nice for them to form this alliance. It’s a really lovely relationship that they have.

A lot of weirdness there. "Really lovely relationship"? Uh, about that...

First of all, the interviewer states that Sansa will develop a friendship with Tyrion in Season 3 in a matter-of-fact way, like it's a done deal. No one who had read the books would characterize Sansa and Tyrion's relationship in ASOS as a "friendship." I've seen other interviews where interviewers refer to a "pivotal" relationship between Tyrion and Sansa in Season 3, which is probably a fair way of characterizing it, and one interview where the interviewer straight up asks Sophie Turner whether Sansa gets married this season, but "friendship"?

Second of all, no other interviews with either Sophie Turner or Peter Dinklage for Season 3 have made any reference to this friendship. In fact, I saw a recent interview with Sophie Turner where she talks about Sansa in Season 3 being more independent, more of a player, wanting to get away from the Lannisters, clamping down on her emotions and not wanting to trust people, using people instead of being used, etc. etc., which sounds pretty close to her book characterization and doesn't sound like it leaves a lot of room for anything else, let alone a friendship with a Lannister.

Lastly, someone who's seen the first four episodes has spoiled that Sansa and Tyrion don't have any scenes together in the first four episodes...which is sticking close to the books, since in ASOS they don't interact at all until just before their wedding. So any friendship they're going to develop would pretty much have to be after the first four but before they get married, so in 3x05, 3x06, and 3x07, I guess (since they get married either in 3x07 or 3x08). I'm assuming that any friendship would be jettisoned by the marriage fiasco. I suppose that if there is something of a friendship in 3x05-3x07, it would be to up the drama so that there would be that much more damage caused by the marriage (with an added element of the friendship being betrayed, or somesuch).

Normally, I'd assume that Sophie Turner was just having a bit of fun at the interviewer's expense by talking about their "really lovely relationship" (when it was such a nightmare in the books), but having read a fair number of interviews with her, that doesn't seem to be her style. Maybe she was high or something when she answered the question, LOL.

As for Sansa learning from Littlefinger and Tyrion as to how to deceive people, I assume it's learning by example...?

[Ignacia]

@ebevan91

May be you are right. After all, it's not just his appearence, the whole character is nicer and a better person than he was in the books. And Sansa is older than in the books. I think I would prefer if they both get along than having Sansa receiving all the anger and blame because she is "so shallow that she can't love him because he is a dwarf", "so stupid she doesn't realize she is so lucky!" or something like that.

also, Newstar: There's a good picture of her new dress! I :)

[ebevan91]

@ebevan91

May be you are right. After all, it's not just his appearence, the whole character is nicer and a better person than he was in the books. And Sansa is older than in the books. I think I would prefer if they both get along than having Sansa receiving all the anger and blame because she is "so shallow that she can't love him because he is a dwarf", "so stupid she doesn't realize she is so lucky!" or something like that.

also, Newstar: There's a good picture of her new dress! I :)

I just think maybe having the marriage being really awkward would make the non-readers hate Sansa even more.

[Ignacia]

Normally, I'd assume that Sophie Turner was just having a bit of fun at the interviewer's expense by talking about their "really lovely relationship" (when it was such a nightmare in the books), but having read a fair number of interviews with her, that doesn't seem to be her style. Maybe she was high or something when she answered the question, LOL.

Well, she has said in several interviews that Sansa will be happy this season. First there were theories that this meant PW was in S4, then people assumed it was because of her engagement to Loras... what if what she really was referring to was this "lovely" relationship with Tyrion?

ebevan91: Yes, that's what I was trying to say.

[Newstar]

Well, she has said in several interviews that Sansa will be happy this season. First there were theories that this meant PW was in S4, then people assumed it was because of her engagement to Loras... what if what she really was referring to was this "lovely" relationship with Tyrion?

That doesn't work, though, because if the relationship (post-marriage) is good or even not horrible, that eliminates her desire to escape KL, which is kind of important for plot reasons. And if she does have a not-awful relationship with Tyrion with some level of friendship post-marriage and chooses to ditch out on the marriage and abandon him, that would make her look even worse than in the books, where there's no pretense of camaraderie between the two and therefore no real emotional betrayal when she escapes.

Assuming the interview is on the level, though, I could still see Sansa and Tyrion forming a friendship before the marriage. Everything at that point would be relatively stable for them and even looking up: Sansa would be happily secretly engaged to Loras, Tyrion would be happy with Shae, Shae would be secure in her relationship with Tyrion, Sansa would have formed good relationships with both Tyrion and Shae...and then the marriage happens and all of these things are simultaneously ruined.

We know that Loras will be swapped for Willas Tyrell as TV Sansa's potential husband, as many have suspected. Sophie Turner was asked in an interview what Sansa's ideal would be, and her answer was (in part) marriage to a straight Loras Tyrell, which is absolutely true, I think. She also referred in a recent interview to Sansa getting the chance to marry the "man of her dreams" in Season 3 (or similar), just as Joffrey was the man of her dreams in Season 1. (Don't ask me for links to any of these interviews, LOL; Sophie Turner's done so much press in the past month or so that the interviews have all started to blend together.) So I think the delirious happiness, Sansa smiling, etc. etc., will be Sansa getting a crack at an engagement to the person she believes to be her dream man: Loras Tyrell.

I think I would prefer if they both get along than having Sansa receiving all the anger and blame because she is "so shallow that she can't love him because he is a dwarf", "so stupid she doesn't realize she is so lucky!" or something like that.

There are a few problems with the Loras/Willas switch. First of all, Loras is the embodiment of Sansa's romantic ideal (gorgeous, able-bodied, a true knight), while Willas had defects she maturely convinced herself were not important (crippled, possibly ugly, older), so unlike in the books where it was clear from Sansa's acceptance of the Willas match that she was no longer shallow and was maturing, on the TV show it will look like Sansa is still in naive teenager mode, chasing after her fantasy man.

Second of all, Willas is straight, but Loras is not. In the books, Sansa had a real shot of marital happiness with Willas Tyrell, so the loss of it is a cruel blow. In the show, Sansa wanting Loras as a husband is based on a lie, as he will never be able to love her as she hopes he will. So when she loses the Loras match, she's not losing a shot at a good marriage, since it never existed in the first place. Instead of pitying Sansa for the tragedy of her crushed hopes, TV viewers will be all "What's she all upset about? Dude's gay. She totally dodged a bullet."

Lastly, barring some really good writing, TV Sansa is going to look not only shallow and prejudiced for leaping at the chance to marry young, gorgeous, able-bodied Loras Tyrell while scorning a scarred, much older dwarf, but she's also going to look like a naive idiot for swallowing Loras and the Tyrells' BS about Loras' suitability as a husband and failing to see the truth about Loras' orientation. Rather than reflecting Sansa's growth and maturity (as her acceptance of Willas as a potential husband does), it will look like a rehash of Joffrey, where Sansa is so blinded by superficial good qualities of her potential mate that she doesn't realize that the man is completely unsuitable (although the reason will be Loras' homosexuality and not Joffrey's evil). So yeah, it's going to be a problem.

[NorthSouthEastWesteros]

The real shame is Martin wrote nuanced, great female characters. So few writers seem to be able to do that.

As the show goes on, every female character is getting turned into yet another television madonna/whore/sexy badass stereotype.

So far, TV Sansa has (IMO) been much better than book Sansa, but if it's between keeping Tyrion Mr Perfect and making Sansa a shallow bitch?

Sigh.

[Newstar]

The real shame is Martin wrote nuanced, great female characters. So few writers seem to be able to do that.

As the show goes on, every female character is getting turned into yet another television madonna/whore/sexy badass stereotype.

So far, TV Sansa has (IMO) been much better than book Sansa, but if it's between keeping Tyrion Mr Perfect and making Sansa a shallow bitch?

Sigh.

I'm not saying Sansa will necessarily come off as a shallow, prejudiced bitch because of the Loras/Willas swap; good writing could go some ways towards negating any unfavourable perceptions of Sansa. Also, maybe Sansa figures out or learns that Loras is gay and decides to beard for him anyway because it will get her out of KL; that would really show her leveling up in the game and becoming a bit more of a player, as well as avoiding a repeat of the Joffrey situation.

The bizarre exchange in the above interview notwithstanding, I tend to think Tyrion and Sansa's marriage will play out on screen more or less as it did in the books, although the wedding night portion will have to be rewritten substantially because of Sophie Turner's age.

[Jon Mark Selmy]

Oh well, in the books, Tyrion also saved her from Joffrey. A bit too late, because she could hardly walk from the countless blows, but even still; he saved her. He was the only Lannister who does care for her, even though it's only for the sake of his brother Jaime. I don't hope that they will romanticize the whole relationship, as that wouldn't make any sense and it's quite the opposite in the books. However, I hope that the nonbookreaders won't punish Sansa for that.

I don't think it's just for the sake of Jaime. Tyrion has a thing for "cripples, bastards and broken things".

[jons nissa]

i haven't seen this thread in a while and am completely shocked at some of the recent developments. sansa and tyrion friends? i'm not sure what to make of that. i always hoped they would realize they have a common enemy in joffrey, cersei and tywin and become friends in the book but that never happened. as for the show, i can't say we've seen enough to encourage a friendship. where is this going to come from?

as for loras/willas, everyone on the boards assumes life with willas would have been pure bliss and i've always wondered about that. this marriage is proposed by the very people who plot and execute murder and allow sansa to be framed for this murder. why would anyone trust their word? what's more, they are just as eager to get their hands on her inheritance as tywin and tyrion are. why is he viewed as the better option? we do have the interaction between willas and oberyn so this shows he's making plans and plots of his own implying he is very much like the rest of his family and heavily involved in the game. all and all, we just don't know enough about willas in the books to know whether he really was going to be a good husband. however, sansa believes he will be and bites "hook, line and sinker." she knows nothing of him or this family other than they are at court with her but puts all her faith and trust in the unknown completely. again.

if she is betrothed to loras on the show, it seems to mirror this. she believes she is going to have her happy, ever after while not really knowing much about her betrothed other that what's on the surface. she falls for the trick again. this does seem to relay the same overall message. i agree, however, that willas being cripple does show that sansa is willing to look past "pretty people" and she doesn't get to show that growth if she is betrothed to handsome loras. still, i'm far more concerned about sansa becoming friends with tyrion than the fact that loras is good-looking. how on earth are they going to pull that off? i'm baffled.

[Ignacia]

You just explained everything that I'm worried about, better than I ever could.

I'm confused. I had thought they would keep the akwardness of their marriage, and make it even worse because of Sansa and Tyrion's relationship with Shae. TV Shae seems to love Tyrion, but at the same time is very protective to Sansa. If she sees Sansa marry Tyrion against her will, and then is very unhappy in her marriage, Shae would not only feel rejected by Tyrion marrying another woman, she would be angry at him for being part of what is making Sansa unhappy. This would start the deterioration of their relationship, which would continue in S4, leading to her betrayal and him murdering her.

At the same time, even though I don't think TV Shae would blame Sansa for what's happening, their relationship would probably get pretty akward too. Sansa would feel Shae is more distant than before, and she wouldn't know why. This would mean she lost her last friend in KL. Which gives her more motivation to look for Littlefinger's help to get out of King's Landing.

I had thought this was the logical way to go with these characters...

Makes me wonder what will they do with Shae now...