Heresy 12

[Uncat]

Why and why the have returned now, if their so called packt was challenged for as long as anyone can remember, why they move in power now? It seems like huge coincidence for this not to be related with some specific event that GRRM brewed.

or something related to summerhall, its possible that whatever they did there(probably to raise their dragons) upset the balance of whatever kept the others at bay for thousands of years. Thus leading for the only mention of the term "Song of Icen and Fire" in the whole series.

EDIT: We know that they brought warlocks for that task, maybe this time they used something more extreme, some of Mirri maz durr or Mellesandre arts? who knows maybe your "Sidhe" counterpart origin is the far east...

Actually they are not moving in in power. What they did is to get rid of all those that were settling in their territory. No WW has been seen across the Wall so far.

And I don't think, that something/one keept them at bay. They were always there and keept true to their side of the agreement. But, yes, the rise of the forces of fire (i.e. Summerhall perhaps, the execution of Stark Lords by Aeris, the hatching of dragons) is endangering that treaty.

[mor2]

Moving in power i.e. their recent activity, against the men of the Night watch and the Freefolk. I have seen no reason to suggest that the had been active until recently. (Summerhall happened 40 years ago).

[Uncat]

Moving in power i.e. their recent activity, against the men of the Night watch and the Freefolk. I have seen no reason to suggest that the had been active until recently. (Summerhall happened 40 years ago).

I was just guessing around. It would depend on how easy to irritate they are. I mean. Do they jump as soon as any so much puts his toes across the line or are they watching with interest at first (Summerhall did not work after all) and then with rising concern. But that would be just a wild guess, too.

And I Prof. Crow is right, their clocks aren't in sync with ours. So maybe from their point of view, they just signed a pact and them turn around twice to find their lands full of Wildlings and a North that no longer stands true to that treaty.

So they decide to throw those wild settlers out. But as sign of good will, they also decide to just heard them out instread of killing them all. And when that host of the Nights Watch gets in the way, well bad luck for them. Nobody told them to.

[Black Crow]

I suppose it all depends how we define "activity" - as we've noted before Craster has been giving up his sons for years and Mormont is sufficiently familiar with them to regard it as troubling that they're ranging as far as Eastwatch - which is very different from expressing his shock and horror that they have popped up at all.

In terms of a trigger its hard to escape the feeling that the red star is sgnificant in some way.

[Uncat]

This the more as the Red Star seems to be part of Aemons dragon dreams, too.

[mor2]

I was just guessing around. It would depend on how easy to irritate they are. I mean. Do they jump as soon as any so much puts his toes across the line or are they watching with interest at first (Summerhall did not work after all) and then with rising concern. But that would be just a wild guess, too.

Yes they failed at Summerhall, the question is in what way...

I assume that GRRM wont pull deus ex machina on us, but use clues he seeded in the books. With that in mind, I find the only instance of "Song of Ice and Fire" mentioned in the books called "Song of Ice and Fire" being significant. Especially when it involve major POV, major characters, house of the undying and half a dozen other prophecies that already come to past(including the Red wedding), also Rhaegar (from the visions) said to be born on the day of Summerhall happened and with few other small hints, I think that there is more than enough unveiled foreshadowing here, for me to suspect it was the trigger.

After all we know that the Targs wanted those dragons and used any means necessary for their return(which was foretold), so maybe what they did wrong set in motion whatever led the Others to return after so long. Also Summerhall happened 40 years ago, which leaves enough time to account for all the recent activity....

In terms of a trigger its hard to escape the feeling that the red star is sgnificant in some way.

I always assumed that it only announced the return of the Dragons and/or magic(also since it happens at the end of the first book, it is to late todo anything with the other return).

[Uncat]

I assume right now, that the PTWP is some kind of a vision or fortold destiny of house Targaryen, in the context of the larger Song of Ice and Fire. This Song would then be an older, larger myth told in Old Valyria and now lost to anybody else besides the Targs.

The Targs some 40 to 50 years ago - Aemon most of all - were under the impression,, that the moment in time when the vision or prophecy will be fulfilled was drwaing nearer. Being under this impression they started to try to fulfill it in the ways they understood. Summerhall, Rheagars early convection, that he himself was the PTWP and then his idea of fathering the PTWP is all part of this (again I see Aemon as the unvisible third man who forced this interpretation, but that's just me)

But the ting is, did they feel it in their bones, that the time of fulfilment was drawing nearer and try to act accordingly? If this holds true, they did not trigger events but just tried to keep ahead of things. Then the WW would start to act, because it was time to for some othe reasons.

Or is is thing self fulfilling in a way that the Targs triggered thing with their attempts to bring the PTWP about.

Personaly, I belive that it is the first one. The Targs are the other Family bound to the Song of Ice and Fire just like the Starks. But they only react. They don't set things in motion.

[darrylzero]

Mormont is sufficiently familiar with [White Walkers] to regard it as troubling that they're ranging as far as Eastwatch - which is very different from expressing his shock and horror that they have popped up at all.

I would like to reiterate my disagreement with this reading. I believe Mormont's caution is about not knowing whether he can really believe the reports. It's not a lack of surprise, but rather skepticism. Skepticism and concern, yes but definitely skepticism.

[Uncat]

Don't think so, if it were skepticism, he would have retold it in desbelive. After all they were talking about the mothological enemy that did not make his apearance for thousends of years. So he would either be alarmed or relating in disbelive or e would linger on the question if that is to be belived or not.

[Black Crow]

Indeed, he's piling it on. Its Tyrion who's sceptical. From Mormont's point of view he might be a little uncertain as to the veracity of the report which is why he qualifies it by saying the fisherfolk say they've glimpsed the White Walkers, but the point remains that he doesn't know what's really going on out there. All he knows is that something's up and that the reported appearance of White Walkers is just one more piece in the intelligence jigsaw.

There's no sense of lock up your daughters and bar the gates cos the Others are coming; its rather an accumulation of things, and the White Walkers aren't necessarily the answer. The whole tone is not so much that these mythical beings have actually been seen, but rather much more an air of you don't normally see them so far south this time of year...

[mor2]

I have to agree with darrylzero, Mormont is an experienced commander who know not to disregard any rumours(white walkers or not those are unknowns at east watch) but most of all he is concerned for the state of the Night watch and trying to get Tyrion to use his power to bring help.

[alienarea]

The longer I think about it, the more I believe the reappearance of the White Walkers is connected with Benjen and, sigh, Bloodraven.

Speculation: Benjen has not been at Craster's for three years [fact, if we believe Craster]. He is in league with Bloodraven as well [maybe Benjen is Coldhands, maybe he is not]. Bloodraven explained Benjen the pivotal roles of Bran and Jon in the near future. Benjen goes to Winterfell as we learn in AGOT, and he is the one to bring the direwolf and the pups south of the wall. When he has recruited Jon, as was his mission by Bloodraven, he goes on his last ranging.

[against my beliefs that makes even more sense if Coldhands = Benjen and R+L=J because of Bloodraven as a Targaryen loyalist. He knows ice and fire must be balanced for mankind to prevail, so Jon needs to be at the wall and Bran needs to replace Bloodraven to guide Jon. Bloodraven would be a Moses kind of person, seeing the holy land but dying before he gets there]

[Uncat]

I have to agree with darrylzero, Mormont is an experienced commander who know not to disregard any rumours(white walkers or not those are unknowns at east watch) but most of all he is concerned for the state of the Night watch and trying to get Tyrion to use his power to bring help.

And that would be exact reason, why he should turn up the drama: Grave voice, concerned look, almost wispering: "And after thousends and thousands of years - I know, it is hard to belive - White Walkers have been sighted. Yes, My lord, hard to belive, I know. But it seems like the Others are returning. And we are not ready.

I mean, if he is trying to convince Tyrion to help the Watch, this would just be be the thing. And yet he tells it casualy. Why? Black Crows' is the only explanation that ever convinced me.

And then the Watch has several reports about the WW, which Sam diggs out. Non of them is from the Long Night, as it seems. So the Watch knows them and has met them several times.

They were there, not always, maybe, but from time too time.

[Uncat]

The longer I think about it, the more I believe the reappearance of the White Walkers is connected with Benjen and, sigh, Bloodraven.

Speculation: Benjen has not been at Craster's for three years [fact, if we believe Craster]. He is in league with Bloodraven as well [maybe Benjen is Coldhands, maybe he is not]. Bloodraven explained Benjen the pivotal roles of Bran and Jon in the near future. Benjen goes to Winterfell as we learn in AGOT, and he is the one to bring the direwolf and the pups south of the wall. When he has recruited Jon, as was his mission by Bloodraven, he goes on his last ranging.

[against my beliefs that makes even more sense if Coldhands = Benjen and R+L=J because of Bloodraven as a Targaryen loyalist. He knows ice and fire must be balanced for mankind to prevail, so Jon needs to be at the wall and Bran needs to replace Bloodraven to guide Jon. Bloodraven would be a Moses kind of person, seeing the holy land but dying before he gets there]

Interesting thought. Never thought about how the direwolf actually ended up right in the way of the Starks.

[Black Crow]

And then the Watch has several reports about the WW, which Sam diggs out. Non of them is from the Long Night, as it seems. So the Watch knows them and has met them several times.

They were there, not always, maybe, but from time too time.

Again this comes back to the night that ended with the Nights Watch riding out to do battle with the Others. There's no explanation of how the Children helped the Last Hero, and after years of searching for them, reduced to no companions and a broken sword, he's hardly got an army at his back. Which is why we're posing that theory about who really built the Wall and why. The night that ended battle has to be later, perhaps much later - we have that reference by Jon to the horns being blown for returning rangers for 1,000 years not 8,000 years - and is more likely to be tied up with the overthrow of Bran Stark the Nights King.

[Tyryan Lannister]

Interesting thought. Never thought about how the direwolf actually ended up right in the way of the Starks.

And this would be a decent starting point for the overarching mythology of the series. GRRM has said that the entire story started out as this image of some boys coming across a wolf that had died due to a stag's horn through the neck. Really wish I could find the interview he said that in...

[mor2]

And that would be exact reason, why he should turn up the drama: Grave voice, concerned look, almost wispering: "And after thousends and thousands of years - I know, it is hard to belive - White Walkers have been sighted. Yes, My lord, hard to belive, I know. But it seems like the Others are returning. And we are not ready.

This would be a lie and out of character for Mormont as far as I see him. Sorry but in this case those are just disturbing reports from a concerned commander, no proof, otherwise he would have started with it instead of adding this almost as an after thought when tyrion leaves. For example when he had proof of actual Wights(after the attack) he sent it to KL immediately.

And then the Watch has several reports about the WW, which Sam diggs out. Non of them is from the Long Night, as it seems. So the Watch knows them and has met them several times.

what reports?

[Lykos]

<snip>

what reports?

The annals. But as the following quote shows, it doesn´t prove anything, either way. I think Craster´s offerings show that the White Walkers were coming for decades and more frequently lately.

"The Others.'' Sam licked his lips. "They are mentioned in the annals. though not as often as I would have thought. The annals I've found and looked at, that is. There's more I haven't found. I know. Some of the older books are falling to pieces. The pages crumble when I try and turn them. And the really old books . .. either they have crumbled all away or they are buried somewhere that I haven't looked yet or. . . well, it could be that there are no such books, and never were.

The oldest histories we have were written after the Andals came to Westeros. The First Men only left us runes on rocks, so everything we think we know about the Age of Heroes and the Dawn Age and the Long Night comes from accounts set down by septons thousands of years later. There are archmaesters at the Citadel who question all of it. Those old histories are full of kings who reigned for hundreds of years, and knights riding around a thousand years before there were knights. You know the tales, Brandon the Builder, Symeon Star-Eyes. Night's King . . . we say that you're the nine hundred and ninety-eighth Lord Commander of the Nights Watch, but the oldest list I've found shows six hundred seventy-four commanders, which suggests that it was written during . . ."

"Long ago," Jon broke in. "What about the Others?"

"I found mention of dragonglass. The children of the forest used to give the Night's Watch a hundred obsidian daggers every year, during the Age of Heroes. The Others come when it is cold, most of the tales agree. Or else it gets cold when they come. Sometimes they appear during snowstorms and melt away when the skies clear. They hide from the light of the sun and emerge by night... or else night falls when they emerge. Some stories speak of them riding the corpses of dead animals. Bears, direwolves. mammoths, horses, it makes no matter, so long as the beast is dead. The one that killed Small Paul was riding a dead horse, so that part's plainly true. Some accounts speak of giant ice spiders too. I don't know what those are. Men who fall in battle against the Others must be burned, or else the dead will rise again as their thralls."

"We knew all this. The question is, how do we fight them?"

"The armor of the Others is proof against most ordinary blades, if the tales can be believed," said Sam, "and their own swords are so cold they shatter steel. Fire will dismay them, though, and they are vulnerable to obsidian.'' He remembered the one he had faced in the haunted forest, and how it had seemed to melt away when he stabbed it with the dragon-glass dagger Jon had made for him. I found one account of the Long Night that spoke of the last hero slaying Others with a blade of dragon-steel. Supposedly they could not stand against it."

"Dragonsteel?" Jon frowned. "Valyrian steel?"

"That was my first thought as well."

"So if I can just convince the lords of the Seven Kingdoms to give us their Valyrian blades, all is saved? That won't be hard." His laugh had no mirth in it. "Did you find who the Others are. where they come from, what they want?"

"Not yet. my lord, but it may be that I've just been reading the wrong books. There are hundreds I have not looked at yet.

[alienarea]

Do we know how many Starks have been at the wall before Benjen? And in which function?

If the WWs are rangers as we suspected, are they ranging for Starks? And Bloodraven connected them because of a greendream?

[mor2]

The annals. But as the following quote shows, it doesn´t prove anything, either way. I think Craster´s offerings show that the White Walkers were coming for decades and more frequently lately.

Decades are not thousands of years, there is nothing to suggest in your quote that the others were active since the long night and up until recently. The only instance that we know of is the legend of the Night king, if you wish to believe that his wife was an other, as for caster my theory about summerhall easily explains it, giving him 40 years to practice his "craft". which is also right about the time when LC bloodraven somehow ended up going north and ending with the children...