Heresy 12

[Eyron]

There are mentions in the book, I think both times by Jon Snow, where he describes old men from the North, who in the twilight of their years, go out in to the cold "to hunt" and never come back. The implication being that the old men go out into the cold to die with honour and dignity rather than having their families watch them grow older and frailer and die. It seems to me, after reading your observations about funeral rituals of each culture, that the Northerners, as well as keeping barrows and crypts, practice an older way too. It is in DwD where Jon Snow speaks with Alys Karstark and they are both very familiar with the practice within the culture of the north.

This to me strikes of a ritual, a personal sacrifice if you will, of men of the north giving themselves to the cold, the winter. Whether the old men definitely die out in the cold or give themselves over to something else perhaps we will never know but as we all know, by not burning the bodies in the North anything can happen. I do not have DwD to hand and cannot remember the other book Jon mentions this (I am very sorry guys for being so poor at direct quotes). It is definitely mentioned twice either both by Jon or once by Bran and once by Jon whilst speaking with Alys at the wall.

Good point! I remember reading that twice too, but I can't place the other time, besides Jon and Alys' talk... I have thought about this too, and agree it seems to clash with what we know from the free folk about the importance of burning the dead. The first idea I had about these old men going hunting was that they simply wanted to rid their families of another mouth to feed. But as you say they are not buried, so that is very different from the strict burial traditions in the north that we know of. One aspect could be that the commoners don't have very strict rituals at all, and that this was not a practice that the lords had, the lords and their families are the ones buried in crypts, and their servants in the lichyards (there is one in Winterfell, it's where Lady was buried). We know almost nothing about the common people's traditions really. I have assumed they were buried in graves unburned since burning seems to be an Andal and Targaryen (and Free folk) tradition. (The Tullys bury their lords in a small ship on the river, which they burn, so that is some kind of middle road.)

The old men could be offerings to the Cold gods, or winter itself. It would make sense for an old person to give up their life instead of having to give up a child for instance, but if this is the case, how would it be received by the Cold gods, or the white walkers? One thing that I think is interesting is that it seems to be common practice in the north for old men to do this, but the offerings of Craster, and before him the Night's King, are seen as abominations. Could this be why? The old men are the ones that are supposed to sacrifice themselves, and the young ones should be spared come winter? I am sure we have discussed this at some point earlier too, but I don't recall what was said about it. At least I'm sure it was discussed in one of Bran Vras' threads. IIRC it was about Craster buying himself a longer life by giving up his sons instead of himself. Gaaah, I wish we knew some more about the white walkers and the north...

[Lummel]

The first mention of the old men going off to die in winter is in old nan's story about the last hero I think.

[Brave Danny Flint]

The obvious idea to me is that Qhorin doesn't think of the Starks as being First Men...but as something else

There are two interesting quotes for ACOK that highlight Jon's "otherness"

1) Qhorin: "The cold winds are rising. Mormont feared as much. Benjen Stark felt it as well. Dead men walk and the trees have eyes again. Why should we balk at wargs and giants?"

2) Rattleshirt: "He is a warg...and a crow I like him not."

Wargs are a type of people to be wary of, mistrusted and feared, both by the wildlings and the men of the Night's Watch. It has always struck me as strange that a powerful weapon such as warging should be hushed up and not mentioned openly. It is an otherness, almost like being an other, that everyone who doesn't possess the same trait, seems to be wary of. The Starks knew they had the "wolf's blood" in them yet never wore it proudly it seemed, never openly discussed their magical (call it magic?) heritage.

The Targaryen's have constantly bleeted on about the "blood of the dragon" "do not wake the dragon" "fire and blood" blah blah blah, they are conquerors so it makes sense to be proud of the bloodline and the fact that they could tame dragons. But if their history is to be believed, the Starks were also kings in their own right before, possibly even more powerful "Kings of Winter", should they also not be proud of their own "magical" lineage? I best make it clear that I am using magical as the only word that I can think of to describe this trait I am really not trying to move this into some sort of Harry Potter world. Why would such a great ability be hushed and kept quiet like some hereditary disease and not celebrated and kept "pure" like the Targaryen's did with intermarrying etc. Is it because the Starks have known all along exactly how they acquired such powers? Through mixing their blood lines with other old races beyond The Wall? Or through being of the line that is not the First Men in the first place? We know the Umbers have giants mixed in their blood, they don't seem as ashamed to hide it as the Starks do.

Qhorin definitely knew there was something in Jon Snow than just an ordinary Lord's bastard. It is a shame that he and Mormont and Benjen had to all die/disappear before helping Jon discover what he really is. There has always been something bugging me about why no one actually informs Jon more about himself, whether it was Qhorin or Mance or even another wilding actually sitting Jon down and saying "you are a powerful person, you are a warg, stop denying it it is a good thing and your brothers and sisters are the same too!!". Bran has the Reeds to do that for him. The other Stark children are not so enlightened. I guess I am just being fanciful, it is written this way for a reason leaving us poor readers to suffer!

By the way, are there any mentions in the other heresy threads as to the significance of the direwolves being the key animal for the Starks? Is there an importance to wolves being used for warging in a way that say, shadowcats or bears are not? Silly question I guess something had to be used so why not a wolf.

[Lummel]

Yes it is written like that to make us suffer - we are told what we need to know and in GRRM's opinion we don't need to know!

One guess would be that people who could tell Jon that he's a warg assume that his family would have handled it, another would be looking at the Varamyr prologue feelings about wargs could be highly ambivalent, even without the idea from the south that they are beastlings and monsters. Jojen in ACOK warns Bran that that is what he will be called.

If your warg tends to be like varamyr, then all wargs are going to quickly get a bad reputation I suppose. The Ned is ambivalent about the wolf blood too, there might be a family tradition that it leads starks to be wild and reckless rather than cool and controlled.

I think direwolves are used just for story telling reasons. Pack animals, fast moving but also dangerous in a fight and they don't sleep all the way through winter, but bigger, stronger and more exciting than (most) dogs. :dunno:

ETA is there also a cool value to wolves as well? Just thinking of

of course, plus Eddings had wolves as the magic beast in his books, wasn't there some fancy wolf beast in Tolkien too?

[Brave Danny Flint]

I guess Varamyr gives wargs a bad reputation, wildlings by nature do not tend to stick to any rules and can and will "misuse" powers more willingly. The Starks on the other hand would have to outwardly look like they are in control, you are right, in order to rule as Lords/Kings. It still strikes me as strange that the current line of Stark children never had this ability explained to them. Yes the people around Jon would probably assume that he knows what he his and of his history so don't bother telling him. I know that Ned died before he realised what his children were, and it makes sense to keep the Starks unaware, because we the reader are by extension left in the dark. But the Targs by comparison were proud and very fanatical about their abilities. It just doesn't seem right that most of the current line of Starks have learned more of their heritage and the old ways of the north through Old Nan's stories, than by their father explaining what the Starks were and could well be. It keeps the mystery and suspense going in truth doesn't it.

[Lummel]

The Ned might be have been cautious because of Brandon and Lyanna, just an idea.

[Brave Danny Flint]

The old men could be offerings to the Cold gods, or winter itself. It would make sense for an old person to give up their life instead of having to give up a child for instance, but if this is the case, how would it be received by the Cold gods, or the white walkers? One thing that I think is interesting is that it seems to be common practice in the north for old men to do this, but the offerings of Craster, and before him the Night's King, are seen as abominations. Could this be why? The old men are the ones that are supposed to sacrifice themselves, and the young ones should be spared come winter? I am sure we have discussed this at some point earlier too, but I don't recall what was said about it. At least I'm sure it was discussed in one of Bran Vras' threads. IIRC it was about Craster buying himself a longer life by giving up his sons instead of himself. Gaaah, I wish we knew some more about the white walkers and the north...

I like the idea of the smallfolk sacrificing their old men (and women possibly?) to the Cold Gods by way of appeasement. The Sidhe are often spoken of as creatures to appease with gifts and/or sacrifices. By what means the Cold Gods accept sacrifices are we still are not completely sure. This is true of R'Hillor, we know Mel and the red lot love tossing anyone they can find into the flames as long as the person has "king's blood". Has Craster got it wrong or right with giving over newborn babies? Is he prolonging his own life in doing so, keeping his own inevitable sacrifice at bay? Is this why the Night's Watch father no children but offer up a Stark every now and again by way of appeasement? Going off on a massive tangent here so feel free to reign me back in.

The Heresy threads have theories regarding Craster. I have read that he could be a Stark, or perhaps the father of Mance?

[Brave Danny Flint]

Or should I say did Craster get it wrong or was he trying to prolong his own sacrifice before the Black Crows did him in? Past tense and all that. R.I.P Craster.

[Black Crow]

Craster does, or rather did, go on a bit about being a godly man. I don't think he was consciously trying to prolong his life, he'd just been brought up to honour the Cold Gods/Sidhe by leaving something out for them - like milk and biscuits for Santa Claus. He willingly gave up his sons as changelings, and sheep and other offerings if he didn't have a son when they came knocking.

If he simply wanted to prolong his own life he could far more easily have offered himself, with his sons coming back to visit their Old Dad its not as if he thought they were being eaten. :cool4:

Don't get me wrong, I didn't find him a pleasant character, but I do think he was holding to his beliefs honestly.

[Alarum]

This may be an overly simple answer but I believe the complicated dynamic involving wargs is illustrated in the scenes where Starklings utilize their powers to overcome their foes; namely, when Jon/Ghost slay Halfhand and when Arya borrows the cat's eyes to fight the Kindly Man. In each case the Starks are using their abilities to give them an advantage, which I believe is the crux of the personal and public perception of the warg ability. So the question isn't whether or not the Starks will use their gifts to tip the scales in their own favor, it's just a matter of how much/often.

Varymyr clearly exhibits the dangers of abusing these abilities and there is inherently a potential Varymyr in every Stark child, leading to mistrust. I liken this to how the public (at least in the States [at least a few years ago]) is skeptical if not fully affronted by omnipresent surveillance via police cameras, like a real-life Bloodraven in every city. We are developing laws to govern our overseers but there is always a potential for abuse, which creates problems. When someone has the power to secretly inhabit someone/something else, the more this power is utilized the more people and things will be violated.

Regarding the personal apprehensions, each Stark - Jon in particular - takes extraordinary pains to prove himself worthy and generally awesome in spite of their invidious endowments. It seems that the use of these rare gifts runs counter to the fundamental principles of their general code of honor/chivalry. Take Ned and his wanton sense of honor. Even if he did have warging ability, only in an extreme scenario (ie ToJ) would he use his power since he knows it is unscrupulous - public perception or no.

[Brave Danny Flint]

Wow Alarum that is incredibly insightful. I was seeing the warging abilities in a "superhero" way, which is a bad thing to do with GRRM's characters. I did not think that perhaps using this power somehow is an insecurity i.e. the characters own perception that it could somehow diminish their inner and/or perceived strength as a great warrior/man or woman of moral integrity. This is why Arya doesn't admit to the Kindly Man that she reaches for the cat.

Same thing with your post Black Crow, I didn't think that Craster was a particularly cruel person, there are by far more cruel people in the novels or do far worse things for less. It does make sense to rationalise Craster's sacrifices as a practice that he and possibly his ancestors have adhered to for a long time to stay alive and relatively unharmed. In a cruel twist it was the Black Crows that killed Craster over some stored apples.

[Black Crow]

Same thing with your post Black Crow, I didn't think that Craster was a particularly cruel person, there are by far more cruel people in the novels or do far worse things for less. It does make sense to rationalise Craster's sacrifices as a practice that he and possibly his ancestors have adhered to for a long time to stay alive and relatively unharmed. In a cruel twist it was the Black Crows that killed Craster over some stored apples.

Ah but his sons are coming, so who's to say we've seen the last of him :cool4:

[Black Crow]

As we're now well down page 20 I'll be posting Heresy 13 very shortly.

[Oink of the Isle of Pigs]

Ned makes a point to tell Arya about how during the winter the lone wolf will die and the pack survives. Going back to thinking of the first hero who saw all 12 of his comrades die around him before having his sword freeze, this clearly isn't the case. Then looking at Arya's case her pack was broken apart and didn't survive (and it wasn't even winter yet). I tend to think that everything Ned taught his kids had meaning and truth to it.