Heresy 12

[Cryler]

Does anybody know how old Craster is? And did it mention how many wives he had? Correct me if I'm wrong but, if Gilly is the youngest say 15 or 16 with a rough idea of how many wives he had, maybe one daughter/wife per year minus a few lost to sickness or something he could have been sacrificing his sons for a long time. I always got the impression from their fear of having male children wasn't just from what happened to the but from the fact that majority of the children were male. This is all hypothetical and I'm tired as hell so it probably isn't as clear as I would like but I just wondered if anyone ever tried doing a number crunch on it?

[unRobert]

Decades are not thousands of years, there is nothing to suggest in your quote that the others were active since the long night and up until recently. The only instance that we know of is the legend of the Night king, if you wish to believe that his wife was an other, as for caster my theory about summerhall easily explains it, giving him 40 years to practice his "craft". which is also right about the time when LC bloodraven somehow ended up going north and ending with the children...

Hmm... I've been wondered what the trigger (if there was one) that urged the WW's back into the picture. Matching the approximate time of Summerhall with Bloodraven's arrival at the wall/ stint as LC and also now as you say, Craster's sacrifices can lead us into a direction to find this "trigger". Although I do think we have not been given enough info.

[Lummel]

Does anybody know how old Craster is? ...

GIlly is Craster's grandaughterwife, so assuming that Craster and his first wife were about 15 when they had their first daughter and that Gilly was the result of sleeping with that daughter when she was 15 then the youngest that Craster could be is about 45, I'd say a more reasonable estimate would put him in his mid to late fifties.

I don't think that we can get any further back with the evidence we've got, so the white walkers might have been endemic for a long time or might have emerged about the time of Summerhall (or Craster's puberty). OK the Wildlings burn their dead while we know that historically they burried them but that's a custom that could have been established and become wide spread over a fourty-five year period.

There might be a clue in Craster, in that you've got to wonder how he came to strike this deal with the white walkers in the first place - it's easier to imagine that he is part of a tradition on his Mother's side of worshiping the cold gods and giving them the odd son or two rather than that it suddenly occured to him to grab his first born son out the cradle and wander around the woods looking for spooky individuals to give him away to. If only Sam had been less focused on having wild, passonate sex with Gilly but had instead quizzed her like a good scholar about the beliefs and practices of her family!

[alienarea]

If Craster's sons become White Walkers, and he is dead now, the number of White Walkers should be limited to around 50 (just my guess).

In this scenario we would need to know how the first White Walker was "produced". Did Craster sleep with a female Other and start this?

Is this connected to Harrenhal? The Targaryen's got something wrong when trying to hatch dragons and "hatched" the female Other instead?

[PSHorton]

That's pretty well how I see it, because I really can't see the Last Hero defeating the Others in a battle all by himself. It might also explain the seeming reverence for the Starks even amongst the Free Folk if the Starks were regarded as the protectors of those men living in the realm of Winter beyond the Wall

WOW, I have to say you are all very astute. I wish I could read all of your past arguments in book form or something. I'm sure this had been mentioned before, so I apologize, but here's my question:

Do we know who Ned's mom was? I encountered an interesting theory which holds that by Stark men marrying into southern families (no longer being purely northern) they broke a magical barrier or pact. Thoughts?

[PSHorton]

Also, in regards to the Red Comet, isn't it possible that the CotF and Others knew this comet would eventually show, so they used it as an arbitrary date for the end of the treaty? In other words, the treaty was merely a ceasefire, ending with the appearance of the comet.

[Plainplucket]

Heh... I'm in the wave of other posters who are catching up on these threads before posting an opinion on 'em. To be as honest as possible in this circumstance, I disagree with the Cotf/other/wight conspiracy and whilst I feel very many astute points have been made in this series, inspiring many new ideas for myself, perhaps especially because of detractors in the thread (I really did like Free Northman posts), it's difficult to add to an ever-changing topic when it looks like so many newbies (like myself) have been washed away, and as important as the creative process may be, good ideas require opponents. ;)

[Black Crow]

Also, in regards to the Red Comet, isn't it possible that the CotF and Others knew this comet would eventually show, so they used it as an arbitrary date for the end of the treaty? In other words, the treaty was merely a ceasefire, ending with the appearance of the comet.

I agree on the first part. So far as we're aware the red star hasn't appeared by magic which means that as a comet swinging by periodically (whatever the length of that period) its appearance should be predictable; "when the red star bleeds" and all that, and at some stage in its approach it should be visible in those powerful telescopes we know some maesters have long before it becomes part of the furniture.

Its possible therefore that if the Summerhall business is significant to what's happening now - rather than just a nasty blip - it was intended to prepare for the predicted coming of the red star and its consequences.

As to those consequences, I doubt that it is anything so formal as the ending of a truce. In Faerie lore the Sidhe realms are closest at dawn and dusk. If the long summer is over we may be entering the dusk before the long night of winter which is why the Others/Sidhe are are able to come through more easily - I really must try and get Professor Crow's dissertation on the Sidhe sorted.

[Uncat]

Hmm... I've been wondered what the trigger (if there was one) that urged the WW's back into the picture. Matching the approximate time of Summerhall with Bloodraven's arrival at the wall/ stint as LC and also now as you say, Craster's sacrifices can lead us into a direction to find this "trigger". Although I do think we have not been given enough info.

Summerhall might be a good aproximation. But again, the big question is: Did it trigger something, or did the Targs as others and the Others feel a new rise in the tides of magic, which causedm them to do, what they did (Summerhall, Rhaegar's tragedy, BR going to the Wall etc.?

If Black Crow is right, then the main thing would be, that the two realms of man and Sidhe/WW are getting closer to each other, which makes transitions easier and would explain the growth in magic and the return of the absolute fire beings, the dragons.

[Black Crow]

as important as the creative process may be, good ideas require opponents. ;)

Indeed they do; its what debate is about and all we ask on this thread cycle is that arguments are supported with commonsense and text and conducted with good humour.

I'd also throw out a general point here in that many new or newish posters begin apologetically by saying "I don't know if this has been discussed before..." or worse still are intimidated from posting because they think it might have been.

Its quite possible it has, but with so many new posters coming on to the board and this thread cycle its valid to raise it again and means that you might get a good answer, or better still offer a completely fresh insight...

[Uncat]

Btw., the dragons are not the only one to return. We know one other magical species, that seemed to dwindel and vanish. Nope, not the CotF, but the Weitwoods. Personaly, I like the idea, that the Weirwoods are the real counterpart to the dragons. Deply magical but on anything else the pure opposit of the firebreathing, flying predator (ok, no surprise, that I'm a fan of this, as I was my idea :D)

Anyway, tides of magic are changing, and the Weirwoods are returning to. I would add this to the reasons, why it is more likly, that Summerhall, WW, etc. are symptoms of a change in the world of westeros and nothing, anybody could have triggered.

[PSHorton]

Indeed they do; its what debate is about and all we ask on this thread cycle is that arguments are supported with commonsense and text and conducted with good humour.

I'd also throw out a general point here in that many new or newish posters begin apologetically by saying "I don't know if this has been discussed before..." or worse still are intimidated from posting because they think it might have been.

Its quite possible it has, but with so many new posters coming on to the board and this thread cycle its valid to raise it again and means that you might get a good answer, or better still offer a completely fresh insight...

Glad to hear I can quit apologizing :)

It is isgnificant to not that we are "at dusk," therefore the Others can come through more easily, but I doubt this affects humanity's ability to use Magic. After all, the Valyrian's had a good time of it in what I believe was the "middle of the day."

[PSHorton]

In regards to Summerhall, I've heard it said that the incident involved Rhaegar's birth. Was his birth in some way magical?

I think the implication would be that the Targs were trying to bring about TPWWP in preparation for the long night. This would, to me, affirm that the Others come across on a fixed timeline. So perhaps Summerhall wasn't so much a trigger as a response?

[mor2]

I agree on the first part. So far as we're aware the red star hasn't appeared by magic which means that as a comet swinging by periodically (whatever the length of that period) its appearance should be predictable; "when the red star bleeds" and all that, and at some stage in its approach it should be visible in those powerful telescopes we know some maesters have long before it becomes part of the furniture.

Its possible therefore that if the Summerhall business is significant to what's happening now - rather than just a nasty blip - it was intended to prepare for the predicted coming of the red star and its consequences.

As to those consequences, I doubt that it is anything so formal as the ending of a truce. In Faerie lore the Sidhe realms are closest at dawn and dusk. If the long summer is over we may be entering the dusk before the long night of winter which is why the Others/Sidhe are are able to come through more easily - I really must try and get Professor Crow's dissertation on the Sidhe sorted.

I think, that the Red Comet, was the herald of Dragons and Magic return into the world, just like old nan said "It be dragons, boy". Thus what you suggest means that Dany course of action was set in stone, she never have any choice as and was fate to do the fire thing with Dragon eggs at that day... I think I'd rather take GRRM explanation of season, here as well i.e. its magic.

[Uncat]

Heh... I'm in the wave of other posters who are catching up on these threads before posting an opinion on 'em. To be as honest as possible in this circumstance, I disagree with the Cotf/other/wight conspiracy and whilst I feel very many astute points have been made in this series, inspiring many new ideas for myself, perhaps especially because of detractors in the thread (I really did like Free Northman posts), it's difficult to add to an ever-changing topic when it looks like so many newbies (like myself) have been washed away, and as important as the creative process may be, good ideas require opponents. ;)

And you are so right about this. I liked the posts of Free Northman, too. But then he made it abundantly clear, that he held everyone posting here to be stupid for not seing the truth, he thinks he sees.

This is one thing about the Heresy threads: There are a lot of people posting here which have of completly different ideas about what is realy going on. But we usualy leave each other be. People here present their ideas and comment on them and even try to prick holes into them, to if they sink. But there usualy are no exchanges like this: "I'm right" - "No, I'm right, and you are just to stupid to see it.

[Uncat]

Indeed they do; its what debate is about and all we ask on this thread cycle is that arguments are supported with commonsense and text and conducted with good humour.

I'd also throw out a general point here in that many new or newish posters begin apologetically by saying "I don't know if this has been discussed before..." or worse still are intimidated from posting because they think it might have been.

Its quite possible it has, but with so many new posters coming on to the board and this thread cycle its valid to raise it again and means that you might get a good answer, or better still offer a completely fresh insight...

And then this thread is so huge, that ideas get lost on a regular basis and are found again later, when time is realy ripe for them.

[Black Crow]

Mor @ Of course its magic, but the star appeared before the dragons and therefore its reasonable to suppose that it was its magic which facilitated their return. Whether Dany was actually fated to deliver them at the moment she did might make an interesting philpsophical point, eg; what would have happened if Drogo didn't let that minor wound fester... but ultimately all that matters is that the right combination of events took place wittingly or otherwise at the right time.

[Black Crow]

Professor Crow’s dissertation on the Others (updated version) part the first

There are so far only two physical descriptions of the Others in text; first in the prologue to AGoT and then in the fight below the Fist.

A shadow emerged from the dark of the wood. It stood in front of Royce. Tall, it was, and gaunt and hard as old bones, with flesh pale as milk. Its armor seemed to change color as it moved; here it was white as new-fallen snow, there black as shadow, everywhere dappled with the deep grey-green of the trees. The patterns ran like moonlight on the water with every step it took.

The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor.

The Other halted. Will saw its eyes; blue, deeper and bluer than any human eyes, a blue that burned like ice.

Behind him, to right, to left, all around him the watchers stood patient, faceless, silent, the shifting patterns of their delicate armor making them all but invisible in the wood. Yet they made no move to interfere.

The Other said something in a language that Will did not know, his voice was like the cracking of ice on a winter lake, and the words were mocking.

The watchers moved forward together, as if some signal had been given. Swords rose and fell, all in a deathly silence. It was cold butchery. The pale blades sliced through ringmail as if it were silk. Will closed his eyes. Far beneath him, he heard their voices and laughter sharp as icicles.

Then there’s Sam and Grenn in the retreat from the Fist as told in Storm of Swords 1:

On its back was a rider pale as ice… The Other slid gracefully from the saddle to stand upon the snow. Sword slim it was, and milky white. Its armor rippled and shifted as it moved, and its feet did not break the crust of the new fallen snow…

“Get away!” Grenn took a step, thrusting the torch out before him. “Away or you burn.” He poked at it with the flames.

The Other’s sword gleamed with a faint blue glow. It moved toward Grenn, lightning quick, slashing. When the ice blue blade brushed the flames, a screech stabbed Sam’s ears sharp as a needle. The head of the torch tumbled sideways to vanish beneath a deep drift of snow…

The wights had been slow clumsy things but the Other was light as snow on the wind. It slid away from Paul’s axe, armour rippling, and its crystal sword twisted and spun and slipped through the iron rings of Paul’s mail, through leather and wool and bone and flesh. It came out his back with a hissssssssssss and Sam heard Paul say “Oh” as he lost the axe. Impaled, his blood smoking around the sword, the big man tried to reach his killer with his hands and almost had before he fell. The weight of him tore the strange pale sword from the Other’s grip…

And then he was stumbling forward, falling more than running, really, closing his eyes and shoving the dagger blindly out before him with both hands. He heard a crack, like the sound ice makes when it breaks beneath a man’s foot, and then a screech so shrill and sharp that he went staggering backward with his hands over his muffled ears, and fell hard on his arse.

When he opened his eyes the Other’s armor was running down its legs in rivulets as pale blue blood hissed and steamed around the black dragonglass dagger in its throat. It reached down with two bone-white hands to pull out the knife, but where its fingers touched the obsidian they smoked.

Sam rolled onto his side, eyes wide as the Other shrank and puddled, dissolving away. In twenty heartbeats its flesh was gone, swirling away in a fine white mist. Beneath were bones like milkglass, pale and shiny, and they were melting too. Finally only the dragonglass dagger remained, wreathed in steam as if it were alive and sweating. Grenn bent to scoop it up and flung it down again at once. “Mother, that’s cold!”

In both passages we can see they are tall, gaunt and hard featured with white skin and bright blue eyes, wearing stealth armour like that said by Maester Luwin to have been worn by the Wood Dancers

In place of mail, they wore long shirts of woven leaves and bound their legs in bark, so they seemed to melt into the wood.

We’ll come back to this melting into the wood in a moment, because now we also have a third description, provided by GRRM to the comic book artist Tommy Patterson:

“I had many talks with George. He told me of the ice swords, and the reflective, camouflaging armor that picks up the images of the things around it like a clear, still pond. He spoke a lot about what they were not, but what they were was harder to put into words. Here is what George said, in one e-mail: The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.”

And so we come to the Sidhe and although GRRM is obviously talking about how the Others should look rather than who they are, he’s picturing them in his mind as something like the Sidhe and in part two we’ll look at just how closely the two really do correspond.

[Lykos]

Decades are not thousands of years, there is nothing to suggest in your quote that the others were active since the long night and up until recently. <snip>

I just wanted to provide a base for the arguement, as I said there is no proof either way in the quote. But there is a bit that sugests that the Andals encountered White Walkers: "and their own swords are so cold they shatter steel."

Another interesting bit is that Sam mentions that the oldest reports were written down by Septons not Maesters.

I´m interested in your idea that the Tragedy at Summerhall has something to do with the return of the "Others". We know very little about this event, I can´t even find a mentioning of a comet. And we don´t know if the red comet returns regularly, though if Ygritte wasn´t just teasing Jon it most likely does. I thought of another possibility why Rhaegar might have "stolen" Lyanna. Ygritte tells Jon that the best time to steal a woman is, when the thief ( the red comet ) is in the Moonmaid constellation.

Maester Aemon tells us:

...but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet.

I´m guessing that Lyanna told Rhaegar the same stories Ygritte told Jon and when he saw the comet, he remembered the three heads. This happened during the false spring in 281, 22 years (?) after Summerhall. 17 years later Dany hatches the dragons at the end of an unusualy long summer. Maester Cressen to Shireen in the prologue of Clash.

This one (white raven) came to tell us that the Conclave has met, considered the reports and measurements made by maesters all over the realm, and declared this great summer done at last. Ten years, two turns, and sixteen days it lasted, the longest summer in living memory."

So does the red comet influence the seasons? Making them warmer? Or does he have to appear at certain points of the season to strengthen magic? Is it pushing open the door between Summer- and Winter-Court?

ETA: PSHorten, it´s not mentioned who Ned´s mother was, we only know that her mother was a Flint of the Mountains. So the theory might work. (though I think it´s very unlikely)

[Uncat]

I just wanted to provide a base for the arguement, as I said there is no proof either way in the quote. But there is a bit that sugests that the Andals encountered White Walkers: "and their own swords are so cold they shatter steel."

Another interesting bit is that Sam mentions that the oldest reports were written down by Septons not Maesters.

Thank you for the quotes, Lycos. I was going for the bit, when Sam tells Jon, how people see a connection between the WW and the cold but can't agree on if the WW bring cold and darkness or if they only come, when it is cold and dark. Sam does not quote specific reports. He rather summs up, what he could get out of his books. From this I deduced, that there have been at lead a few contacts after the long Night, which were related to the authors of the books, Sam found. This is thin ice, I know. I'm just basing it on the way, Sam tells it. He does not say: I found book X from guy Y who tells. This he would have done, if he only had one source. Very, very speculativ, I know.